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Old January 26th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #21
Kanto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
You can see it in the comments of all of those ridiculous articles or 'ugly buildings' lists. So many reference its location in one way or another... On websites like Flickr, which is for photographers only, the commenters usually mention how beautiful the tower is since its beauty is not corrupted by anti North Korean ranting under it.
No you can not because referencing alone doesn't mean anything. Also, the opinion of a few dozen people doesn't represent the opinion of a few milions of people who know about this hotel.

Quote:
So many sources? And yet not one can be found.
You can't prove a report is propaganda by just its location. You have to explicitly state what is wrong with it, or what is in the report that makes it propaganda. And the context of said report doesn't fit into a 'making North Korea look good' scenario. It was written, mainly by geo/structural scientists, for engineering reports on earthquake stability for towers before the tower was even abandoned.
Wrong, I found about two dozens of them and I'm gonna post some of them at the end of this post. As to what I can or can not prove. One doesn't need to disprove something to discredit it. It is enough to prove a lack of trustworthyness. You can't prove that yesterday I was not on Zeta Reticuli, yet the trustworthyness of this proclamation is so low that it automaticaly discredits it. That's the same with your North Korean report. It has North Korean authors and everybody who knows something about North Korea knows that if a North Korean would write or even allow to write something bad about North Korea he/she would immediately go into a concentration camp together with his/her entire family. That alone completely discredits that report. Also it should be noted that it can be found only on one single place on the internet where it is deeply burried in an archive. As to your "defense" of them: That they were engineers? Since when can an engineer not lie. That they have written more than the independent and trustworthy report? Writing about something and doing it are not the same thing. All that can be done can also be made up in the fantasy of a writer. If somebody makes a proclamation you yourself can't experimentally verify the only thing that matters is trustworthyness and the North Korean report has none. Also, the credible independ report has listed everything that was important to conclusively know the status of the building, namely that it is built out of weak concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair. You see, none of your arguments hold up against the good old common sense.

Quote:
As for the biased reporting, I don't think there is any possible way one can defend the media when you can explicitly see how they haven't thought out their arguments and the irony of their comments on it. You really think the media cares about the tower itself? They just copy/paste whatever the article before them said, since it's a good source of income. 'Ryugyong' sounds like the name of some obscure korean dessert, and no-one's going to click on a fairly-reported article calling it by its actual name. That's boring. But 'Hotel of Doom' is exciting for those sheep.
Again, where is a poll which asks those authors how they proceeded in writing their texts? Also, most articles that I found about the hotel and go more in depth are actually very well written and they have valid points. In my opinion they have thought out what they are saying.

And here, some links that I promissed earlier in this post. They all contain information about a conclusive, independent and trustworthy inspection that inspected the hotel, which found that the hotel is built out of weak concrete, that its elevator shafts are crooked and that it is beyond repair:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20178985

http://www.quora.com/Architecture/Wh...s-in-the-world

http://happygoluckyworld.com/tag/ryu.../#.ULniZ4P8IUU

http://www.triposo.com/poi/W__45397243

http://sometimes-interesting.com/201...-the-ryugyong/

http://www.unfinishedbuildings.org/ryugyong.html

http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/131...een-it-before/

http://architectuul.com/architecture/ryugyong-hotel

http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/r/ryugyong-hotel.html

http://www.theruggedgent.com/2012/01...eas-deathstar/

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/n...rea/hotel2.htm

http://openbuildings.com/buildings/r...l-profile-1690

http://www.hotelowner.co.uk/index.ph...ally-open.html

http://www.liverpoolwired.co.uk/news...open-next-year

http://www.londonwired.co.uk/news.ph...open-next-year

http://www.ibtimes.com/north-koreas-...en-2013-858175

http://www.hoteliermiddleeast.com/15...pen-next-year/

One more thing I'd like to add is that I think the unconditional love for this building by some people like the one you displayed in your post is part of what has brought the reporter of the article in the original post of this thread to write so negatively about SSC. I disagree with his article but I kinda understand the bad impression he got from seeing how fiercly you try to defend the hotel despite the facts pointing against it
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Old January 26th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #22
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Yeah, and they all say the same thing. Copy paste, remember? An independent, trustworthy report (a trustworthy report consists now, apparently, of 1-2 comments devoid of evidence) made by a now defunct south korean economics commission. Great. Also, you still haven't told me which part of the report is propaganda, you just keep judging it due to its location (actually, it wasn't even written in North Korea) and claim that everything disproving you is a lie because of what would happen if they said something bad about it. You commit a lot of circular reasoning fallacies, I hope you realize that.

Does it not puzzle you as to how South Koreans, of all people, managed to get inside the most secret building site on earth, in their worst enemy's country, while it was abandoned, and say something negative about it? How on earth did they do that? North Korea barely lets their own tourism group, Koryo Tours, in this building while under construction. Which engineers did these tests? No-one will ever know.

Should south koreans even be considered a good source when dealing with technology? Their cars, for example, really suck.

Where are the opinions of the other 'millions of people who know about this hotel'? What, Rate Our Talls?

There will be no poll because they don't want to expose their bias. Obviously. Read about how propaganda is made in the west. It's a lot more hidden than in other countries...

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Old January 27th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #23
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he sounds like a user that got banned and therefor wants to write something angry about this website that makes no sense
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #24
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who cares we know his nuts, its like saying if i admire my enemy's car then im a retard, he probably is a lurker or a banned member, anyways i think its about time we deal with members about i hate north korean in the i hate north korean forum
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Yeah, and they all say the same thing. Copy paste, remember? An independent, trustworthy report (a trustworthy report consists now, apparently, of 1-2 comments devoid of evidence) made by a now defunct south korean economics commission. Great. Also, you still haven't told me which part of the report is propaganda, you just keep judging it due to its location (actually, it wasn't even written in North Korea) and claim that everything disproving you is a lie because of what would happen if they said something bad about it. You commit a lot of circular reasoning fallacies, I hope you realize that.

Does it not puzzle you as to how South Koreans, of all people, managed to get inside the most secret building site on earth, in their worst enemy's country, while it was abandoned, and say something negative about it? How on earth did they do that? North Korea barely lets their own tourism group, Koryo Tours, in this building while under construction. Which engineers did these tests? No-one will ever know.

Should south koreans even be considered a good source when dealing with technology? Their cars, for example, really suck.

Where are the opinions of the other 'millions of people who know about this hotel'? What, Rate Our Talls?

There will be no poll because they don't want to expose their bias. Obviously. Read about how propaganda is made in the west. It's a lot more hidden than in other countries...
I don't see any more copy and pasting in this case than it is with other information on the internet. Trust me, my job is working with articles so I know.

And again you misuse the word evidence. Evidence is something physical, not written words and numbers. A report doesn't provide evidence, it only provides information from other people who claim they based this information on evidence. This claim can be true and this claim can be a lie, it all depends on trustworthyness. The North Korean report has none while the European Union Chamber of Commerce report has as much trustworthyness as a report on the internet can have. The EUChoC report tells enough to be conclusive. Writing entire pages about something doesn't mean it is trustworthy, because it all are just written words and numbers, those can be true and those can be lied, again, the only thing that matters is trustworthyness. Every engineer can write a full report without doing a single test.

And in my previous post I explained that nobody can prove that the North Korean report is a lie, however I have completely discredited and debunked it. The result is that that report is now devoid of any trustworthyness with its informative value being nil so it isn't disproving anything. The location where it was published doesn't mean anything, it has North Korean autrors which are under the laws of North Korea so it is abvious that they must act according to these laws, which mean spreading the propaganda. It's the same when people from documentaries ask ordinary people in a visit to North Korea about something. Those people get very frightened and with a shaking voice they start repeating one propaganda line after another.

I agree with one thing and that is that letting the inspectors into the hotel was a bad move by North Korea, but that doesn't mean anything because errors happen regularily. Maybe one government official read the North Korean report and thought that it's true so he didn't see any danger by letting the EUChoC hired engineers inside. That is just a guess but there are countless possibilities why they could have let them in and there is absolutely nothing suspicious about it. And for your information, the EUChoC is a joint EU South Korean independent institution so it is no SOuth Korean "invading force" as you depict it.

And I don't know whether the millions of people who know about this building like it or dislike it, I never claimed that, I only said that you can't know it either through the opinions of a few dozen people.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:22 PM   #26
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I am so glad that this thread started so you don't troll the Ryugyong thread anymore.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #27
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I don't think I can reply to that, and say anything I haven't said before. This conversation goes in circles, like your reasoning.
So I'm bored of this, feel free to argue with someone else here, as long as you keep it off the Ryugyong thread.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #28
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It is understandable, I have offered 17 links while you have offered none and I have successfully debunked all of your "points" as well so it is natural that you and krkseqops have nothing more to add.

For a final note, I would like to ask you and krkseqops to keep your disinformation and your conditionless love essays of North Korea and the hotel out of the hotel's thread because it gives people a very bad impression which then results in articles where they bash the entire forum like we have witnessed now. Don't do it for the sake of me, do it for the sake of the forum.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 07:48 PM   #29
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You always say that even though it is untrue. I have a lot to say, but you listen to none of it, so it's pointless, and I don't like wasting my time with stuff like that. And the '17 links' wasn't even the comment I was referring to. Even so, I already explained why they put those. They copied and paste it from the previous articles. If a comment is wrong to begin with, and people don't care enough to check if it's really right, and they just copy/paste it over and over again, it doesn't make it any more right. It's like how 911 truthers claim they have so many pages of evidence from scholars, but just giving hundreds of links to, you guessed it, their own sites. It's called circular reasoning.

You've successfully debunked nothing, absolutely zero physical arguments against what I've claimed. You just act like the Sorks are gods of science and that just because of their location, it's okay for them to make a report with two vague lines with no evidence.

Let's say, if you hated Nikola Tesla (he was slightly insane), and loved Thomas Edison, and Tesla presented his written scientific evidence of his claims, with Edison responding in murmured complaints, would you still side with Edison?

And you really think it is 'an error' that North Korea let South Koreans into one of their secret building sites and 'accidentally' do experiments on it? How is that possible? North Koreans have bad priorities, but they're not stupid.

So the who naysayer situation is this: South Koreans somehow got into North Korea, and into the Ryugyong Hotel, while abandoned, did experiments on it, and commented negatively on it, with North Korea not caring at all. The same North korea that doesn't even let its own groups in there. Then western media giants, some known just for their bias, paraphrased them. And then showed some high-contrast picture taken of rainy weather to make the concrete look worse, showing a bit of sloppy concrete forming. That's all the evidence they need.

That's how we know this building is obviously about to fall down... right. Just like all the other North Korean buildings. Pyongyang is just piles of rubble from their buildings collapsing, right? Or maybe they need to be at 'full capacity' to do so...
And despite the grim warnings of the omnipotent South koreans, multi billion dollar businesses go ahead and invest in the building, anyway, because they're evil and stupid, too. A concrete engineering company would not care if one of their projects collapsed due to 'faulty concrete' (even though they said there was no problem with it) because then other evil regimes would use...them...more..?

And a luxury hotel chain wouldn't care whatsoever if the building was in danger, because that's not their job, is it?

It's not unconditional love. It deserves more love because of all the sourceless rumours of weakness and bias for its location. Who cares what other people think? I will not jump the bandwagon for the sake of people being annoyed with something other than what they are used to hearing. Also, to be perfectly frank, far more people on this forum are against you than against me, and I'm defending a building in North Korea, the evil hellhole of the world.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 07:49 PM   #30
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I rest my case, I'm done here.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 08:44 PM   #31
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I read that article, and what a load of crap. One, the idea that browsing a skyscraper forum is anywhere close to browsing porn in terms of "something you wouldn't want to admit to" is just so unbelievably offensive, one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.

And second, the author apparently thinks it's a bad thing that we ask people to leave politics at the door, and stick to debating these buildings on their architectural and technical merits. Well, considering how divisive and heated political discussions can get, maybe leaving politics at the door is a good thing. There's lots of places to discuss politics online, this just isn't one of them.

I'll also add one more thing- the guy mentions that he was part of this community, and borrowed pictures from these forums. But then he turns around and disses us by associating us with porn freaks and wierdos, as though being interested in anything "niche" was shameful? Wow, what a hypocrite.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
You always say that even though it is untrue. I have a lot to say, but you listen to none of it, so it's pointless, and I don't like wasting my time with stuff like that. And the '17 links' wasn't even the comment I was referring to. Even so, I already explained why they put those. They copied and paste it from the previous articles. If a comment is wrong to begin with, and people don't care enough to check if it's really right, and they just copy/paste it over and over again, it doesn't make it any more right. It's like how 911 truthers claim they have so many pages of evidence from scholars, but just giving hundreds of links to, you guessed it, their own sites. It's called circular reasoning.
Of course the pages have their information from one source, namely the EUChoC report. That's the only true and public report that has ever been done on the hotel, so they won't find any other sources. That doesn't mean that they haven't done their research. You can see in the articles that there are several ways of how they use words to describe the report meaning that they didn't just copy paste the information. They deemed the information trustworthy and have therefore used it in their article. Your North Korean propaganda report is too just one source. Also, you proceed to give invalid comparisons, the links I posted are not from pages of the EUChoC, or any government, so they aren't "their own" pages.

Quote:
You've successfully debunked nothing, absolutely zero physical arguments against what I've claimed. You just act like the Sorks are gods of science and that just because of their location, it's okay for them to make a report with two vague lines with no evidence.
Now you rape the word physical. You don't have a single grain of physical evidence and neither do I. Physical evidence is something you can test for yourself. Both of us have only documentation. You have absolutely no way to know who used evidence and who didn't. That is where trustworthyness comes into play. The EUChoC report is trustworthy and therefore I fully trust that it used all the evidence necessary to come to its conclusion. On the other hand the North Korean propaganda report is untrustworthy and I fully trust that it is fake. Also, the ammount of text in a document doesn't mean anything. The EUChoC report is conclusive and said all that had to be said in order to be conclusive. The ammount of text in a report means absolutely nothing because "text" isn't the same as "evidence". Text can be fake and yes, big ammounts of text can be fake too. Again, that is where trustworthyness comes into play.

Quote:
Let's say, if you hated Nikola Tesla (he was slightly insane), and loved Thomas Edison, and Tesla presented his written scientific evidence of his claims, with Edison responding in murmured complaints, would you still side with Edison?
Again an invalid comparison. Here you rape the words "science" and "evidence". You exchanged these words with the word "text". There is absolutely nothing more scientific on the North Korean report than on the EUChoC report. Science and evidence isn't about a huge ammount of text. It is about doing experiments and gathering physical evidence. Writing documents is not science, gathering data is science. Again I'll repeat that the EUChoC report, while containing far less text than the North Korean report, is still perfectly conclusive so it isn't any "murmmured complaint". Neither you, nor I have proof that any of the two reports is true or fake, the only thing we have is trustworthyness and that speaks very clearly.

Quote:
And you really think it is 'an error' that North Korea let South Koreans into one of their secret building sites and 'accidentally' do experiments on it? How is that possible? North Koreans have bad priorities, but they're not stupid.
Errors happen. You have to understand that the whole regime is not maintained by a single person. There are countless government officials, which means that an error in synchronization can result in errors being made. This is just speculation but I have written it to show what the possibilities are and to show that your speculation is not the only speculation possible.

Quote:
So the who naysayer situation is this: South Koreans somehow got into North Korea, and into the Ryugyong Hotel, while abandoned, did experiments on it, and commented negatively on it, with North Korea not caring at all. The same North korea that doesn't even let its own groups in there. Then western media giants, some known just for their bias, paraphrased them. And then showed some high-contrast picture taken of rainy weather to make the concrete look worse, showing a bit of sloppy concrete forming. That's all the evidence they need.
As I said before, it is perfectly feasible that an error occuerd and the EUChoC was allowed to do their tests. And as I explained in the previous paragraph, neither of us knows about this so all is just speculation, we only know that this incpection did occur. From time to time occasional biased articles are made in every single news portal in the world, that is just a fact and as long as they are not occuring often, these sites can still be considered trustworthy, otherwise we couldn't trust a single web page on the internet. However, North Korean propaganda is literally made on biased proclamations, so it lacks absolutely any trustworthyness. And finally we come to the pictures. The pictures I posted were not high-contrast, not rainy and they were not showing a bit of sloppy concrete forming. They showed crumbling concrete in a far worse extend than I've ever seen on buildings without cladding exposed to the elements for many years. Alone that isn't conclusive, but together with the EUChoC report it does provide a good piece of evidence of how poor the concrete is. I will post the pics on the end of this post.

Quote:
That's how we know this building is obviously about to fall down... right. Just like all the other North Korean buildings. Pyongyang is just piles of rubble from their buildings collapsing, right? Or maybe they need to be at 'full capacity' to do so...
And despite the grim warnings of the omnipotent South koreans, multi billion dollar businesses go ahead and invest in the building, anyway, because they're evil and stupid, too. A concrete engineering company would not care if one of their projects collapsed due to 'faulty concrete' (even though they said there was no problem with it) because then other evil regimes would use...them...more..?

And a luxury hotel chain wouldn't care whatsoever if the building was in danger, because that's not their job, is it?

It's not unconditional love. It deserves more love because of all the sourceless rumours of weakness and bias for its location. Who cares what other people think? I will not jump the bandwagon for the sake of people being annoyed with something other than what they are used to hearing. Also, to be perfectly frank, far more people on this forum are against you than against me, and I'm defending a building in North Korea, the evil hellhole of the world.
All pure speculation. Unless you have seen the contracts between North Korea and Orascom and Kempinski you can't possibly assess whether a collapse would hurt them, or actually benefit them, or mean simply nothing to them. What you have written is just a conspiracy theory. Your judgement is clouded by your unconditional love for this building, but let me ask you this, what did you provide to support your wild speculations? I provided 17 links and on the end of this post I will provide 4 pics. What have you provided? Nothing, because all that you have written is just speculation. Speculation that I have debunked. And no, you can't judge how many people support you by a less than a dozen individuals visiting the thread of the hotel. Most people who visit that thread love the hotel and because of that they gladly accept any conspiracy theory defending it. And these conspiracy theories are what gives outsiders a bad impression of the forum.

Here are the pics I promissed wher we can see just how crumbled the edges of the concrete structure are:

[IMG]http://i47.************/16bavi9.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i50.************/qyxxkm.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i50.************/28vgch3.jpg[/IMG]
The following is after parts of the facade have been restored and the glass support structure has been partially added:
[IMG]http://i49.************/5wk0ll.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 29th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #33
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I would take both Orascom and Kempinski and charged them with conspiracy to commit mass homicide. After all, they are in North Korea now and they are evil. I knew those pesky Germans were not to be trusted!
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Old January 29th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #34
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You speak as if shady deals of large companies were something new, but they aren't, it happens daily all arround the world. That's the cost for being a successfull businesman, you have to leave your morals behind
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Old January 29th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #35
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Not companies, imagine whole countries that are shady and plotting evil schemes all night long! Then subdue western corporations so they don't even realize the hidden agenda behind 'repairing' this building. Thank you Kanto, you make my day once again with your insightful and honest thoughts
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Old January 29th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #36
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I think your certainity of how fair and honest all big corporations have to be is rather naive. Additionally, you have not seen their contract so you have absolutely no idea what might be profitable for them and what not. Even a loss might end up making a profit. Did you ever hear of the term insurance fraud?
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Old January 29th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #37
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I think the author of the article makes the mistake of not seeing the SSC forum as a whole. Sure, people commenting on the building politically are not welcomed in that particular thread, because it is about the building itself and political arguments would ruin it.

But there are plenty of other places on the forum where people can discuss their ethical our political concerns about the structure or what it represents given the state of the DPRK generally.

That creates the balance and context that the article claims is missing on the forum, it's not all in one thread for practical reasons but there are plenty of viewpoints if you look around the various sub-forums
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Old January 29th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
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I think the author of the article makes the mistake of not seeing the SSC forum as a whole. Sure, people commenting on the building politically are not welcomed in that particular thread, because it is about the building itself and political arguments would ruin it.

But there are plenty of other places on the forum where people can discuss their ethical our political concerns about the structure or what it represents given the state of the DPRK generally.

That creates the balance and context that the article claims is missing on the forum, it's not all in one thread for practical reasons but there are plenty of viewpoints if you look around the various sub-forums
The author is probably part of some "exclusive" forums, where you need a workplace email address to get approved and have to wait a year before you are given acceptance to post messages.
He probably thinks that SSC also should be like these forums - places where you can't post anything against the rules or you get banned forever. He doesn't see the difference between discussion and arguing, because it's too "demanding". I have no problem with people being vocal about the things they don't like, as long as it's something relevant to the topic, such as the aformentioned concrete crumbling.
Political discussions should be kept in the other sections of the forum, but that guy is exaggerating it greately. I have witnessed only a handful of dialogues that were irritating, but nothing made me turn off the page or report users.
I have a feeling that if this guy was a user on SSC, he would probably be the one running around and telling people "you're a hater !", "stop liking what I don't like !", "your opinion is too much of an opinion !".
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Old January 30th, 2013, 04:11 AM   #39
ThatOneGuy
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Insurance fraud,...right... Kempinski hotels needs money from insurance fraud, since they're obviously going out of business. The luxury hotel chain that always built in the 'evil countries' is only doing it for insurance fraud. It's those Germans. Everyone knows Germans are the bad guys, them and their damn Nork friends who always lie no matter what. Doesn't matter if there's no proof of this in any way shape or form, if they're in any relation with North korea it's the worst possible scenario and they're automatically lying about something.
Ugh, just why won't anybody listen to the South Koreans? They know everything. Especially how to make their cars break down as much as possible, fail rocket launches, and write invisible reports about stuff their enemies built... I mean, come on!
North koreans are just naturally evil, their problems have absolutely nothing to do with the crippling sanctions being imposed on them by the west... and the west definitely isn't making them look so bad in the case of there being a future war against them... no way. The media has no agenda whatsoever to be biased about.
We should make sure North Korea gives up on building construction, because we want them to use their energy and money on weapons instead! Otherwise, where would the fun be when they eventually break into war? The west loves war.

And then there's those pesky british...Building such poor quality towers, it's still under construction and it's becoming crooked.
image hosted on flickr


Found a nice picture of the Kempinski CEO

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; January 30th, 2013 at 04:36 AM.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 07:45 AM   #40
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Obviously whoever wrote the article wanted more traffic to his site
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