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Old January 30th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #41
Kanto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Insurance fraud,...right... Kempinski hotels needs money from insurance fraud, since they're obviously going out of business. The luxury hotel chain that always built in the 'evil countries' is only doing it for insurance fraud. It's those Germans. Everyone knows Germans are the bad guys, them and their damn Nork friends who always lie no matter what. Doesn't matter if there's no proof of this in any way shape or form, if they're in any relation with North korea it's the worst possible scenario and they're automatically lying about something.
Ugh, just why won't anybody listen to the South Koreans? They know everything. Especially how to make their cars break down as much as possible, fail rocket launches, and write invisible reports about stuff their enemies built... I mean, come on!
North koreans are just naturally evil, their problems have absolutely nothing to do with the crippling sanctions being imposed on them by the west... and the west definitely isn't making them look so bad in the case of there being a future war against them... no way. The media has no agenda whatsoever to be biased about.
We should make sure North Korea gives up on building construction, because we want them to use their energy and money on weapons instead! Otherwise, where would the fun be when they eventually break into war? The west loves war.

And then there's those pesky british...Building such poor quality towers, it's still under construction and it's becoming crooked.
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Found a nice picture of the Kempinski CEO
Nice conspiracy theory. Though you do seem to forget what I said. I never claimed I know what is profitable for Orascom and Kempinski and what isn't. I only said that neither you, nor I can ever know that. It is impossible for us to know because we didn't see their contracts. I only highlighted that your speculation is not going to make you magically know when they'll gain money and when they'll lose it because it isn't an issue simple enough to solve by your guessing.

And it looks like you don't understand how disinformation works. A simple lie is not disinformation, disinformation is a synchronized web of lies. Nobody would ever bother making such a web for a building in which a few dozens of people are interested in. Disinformation is targeted on the masses, millions or tens of millions of people. Take Bob Lazar for example. Hundreds of millions of people are interested in UFOs, so that is why whoever made his story up focused it on UFOs. However nobody would make all this effort just to bash a hotel in which only a few skyscraper enthusiasts are interested in. As the million dollar man Ted Dibiase said, everything has a price, but some things are just not worth it. And this hotel is not worth it.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:34 PM   #42
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Would you be willing to admit that all the links you provided for the same lie are disinformation? You seem to understand it so well.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #43
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Tons of skyscrapers are currently being built in Gulf countries which are far from being democratic, but I've never heard anyone saying that we souldn't talk about these projects, and actually these projects generate a lot of discussions. Why should that be different for the Ryugyong hotel ?
Because capitalism = good, and communism = evil ?
Let's be coherent please !
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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krkseg1ops View Post
Would you be willing to admit that all the links you provided for the same lie are disinformation? You seem to understand it so well.
But they aren't disinformation, they are the truth because they list information comming from a credible source and they often display individual writing approaches and research. On the other hand you haven't provided any links here. Only in the hotel's thread you provided one single link to a North Korean report. North Korea is among the least credible sources in the world. In fact, despite what you're saying you seem to realize this fact because you aren't posting it anymore. So let me ask you again, what are your sources? You and ThatOneGuy just make wild speculations and conspiracy theories about how everybody wants to harm North Korea. The information contained on the pages I listed is the only credible public information about the hotel's structure so all of your baseless speculation is just a conspiracy theory. Of course people get a bad impression when they read such nonsense. So once again, where are your sources? I provided 17 links and 4 pics but where are your sources? You provided nothing.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 04:08 PM   #45
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Give the source then? How many Times do I have to ask you? I gave you mine, you discredited it. **** it, let's see yours.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #46
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Yup, I discredited it. I'm glad you finally admitted that I have debunked your so called source. As to my sources, they all are on the previous page of this thread, namely 17 links and 4 pics.

Also, regarding your attitude that credibility and acceptance don't mean anything, I'd like to point out that they mean nearly everything. You see, in our daily lives we use information from sources all the time. For example, we all accept that a regular atom is made out of protons, neutrons and electrons. But why do we accept that? Most of us never split an atom and never even observed this split, yet we accept it, why? Because it is commonly accepted by our society and because we have the information about it from a credible source. That's the same with the EUchoC report, it is widely accepted, as proven by my 17 links and it comes from a credible source, so it has all the atributes necessary for acceptance. On the other hand, your mysterious North Korean source is not widely accepted, since it could be found just on 1 single web page and also is not credible, because it is North Korean and North Korea is a notorious propaganda and lie maker (and every North Korean who doesn't spread propaganda goes into a concentration camp), so it has the exact opposite, all the attributes of propaganda.

You see, evidence is something physical that we have, but 99% of the time we don't have evidence (and again I'm gonna repeat that evidence is something physical, which you can test, not a text), we only trust (or not trust) that the authors of a text or document had that evidence. And that is the place where credibility and acceptance comes into play, as I described in the paragraph above.
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Last edited by Kanto; January 30th, 2013 at 04:58 PM.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #47
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Can you please provide sources for your links? Links you post are not sources.

Last edited by krkseg1ops; January 30th, 2013 at 05:34 PM.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:45 PM   #48
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Links are sources. Nearly all of the information from the internet (and widely accepted information, I'd like to add) is from non-original sources. Original studies are mostly burried in archives and can't be found, especially if they are older (from times when not everything was on the web). Also, I'd like to add that your link, which you don't bother anymore to repost, wasn't the original North Korean/Macedonia source either (and it isn't just Macedonian, it is also North Korean because it has North Korean authors too). The link you posted was from an Indian page, however India didn't have anything to do with the North Korean report so that link was not an original source, but a non-original source just as the links I gave here. If you accept one, you have to accept the other, if you don't accept one, you can't accept the other either (by accept I mean accepting a source, not accepting its content).
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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #49
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"Links are sources" - here we go again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources

Maybe you should read this first.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 06:12 PM   #50
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In that WIKI article I haven't seen anything that would make the links I gave invalid sources. Just as I haven't seen anything that would differentiate my links from your (single) link of the North Korean report.

Additionally the WIKI page of the hotel lists BBC as one of their sources. BBC is the first out of the 17 sources I have posted. Also, it itself lists the findings of the EUChoC inspection, so apparently the sources were considered credible by them too:

Quote:
In 1992 after the building had reached its full architectural height,[2] work was halted due to a lack of funds amid electricity and food shortages in North Korea following the collapse of the Soviet bloc.[3] Japanese newspapers estimated the cost of construction was $750 million,[14] consuming 2 percent of North Korea’s GDP.[15] For over a decade, the unfinished building sat vacant and without windows, fixtures, or fittings, appearing as a massive concrete shell.[2] A rusting construction crane at the top, which the BBC called "a reminder of the totalitarian state's thwarted ambition",[3] became a permanent fixture.[16] In the late 1990s, the European Union Chamber of Commerce in Korea inspected the building and concluded that the structure was irreparable.[17] Questions were raised regarding the quality of the building's concrete and the alignment of its elevator shafts,[3] which some sources say are "crooked".[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel
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Old January 30th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #51
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You really don't get it do you
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Old January 30th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #52
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Most of the interest comes from the fact that it was a shell for so long.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 07:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
As the title reads. This guy thinks it is, taking on the building, and the forums and our members while at it. Reads more like a politically correct stand on the matter to me though.
Is reading Mein Kampf unethical?
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Old January 30th, 2013, 07:40 PM   #54
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Is reading Mein Kampf unethical?
the book is banned in my country, so the german government thinks so, yes
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Old January 30th, 2013, 08:02 PM   #55
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You can buy it in all good bookstores here.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 08:28 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
Tons of skyscrapers are currently being built in Gulf countries which are far from being democratic, but I've never heard anyone saying that we souldn't talk about these projects, and actually these projects generate a lot of discussions. Why should that be different for the Ryugyong hotel ?
Because capitalism = good, and communism = evil ?
Let's be coherent please !
Actually I think the Gulf towers that go up are a fair side point. In fact there have been people who have raised issues with finances or labor practices of scrapers being built in the Gulf only to be accused of being trolls or unduly political. If HOW and by WHO such projects are made by isn't deemed important or relevant when discussing projects I question really what is worthwhile discussing. If the actual mention or acknowledgement of the (abuse) and conditions of workers who build these scrapers is seen as a nuisance or even forbidden by some on this site that I think that IS a major collective ethical fail of scraper enthusiast here.

I think it as ethically cowardly and reprehensible as a fashion enthusiast website that prohibits or dissuades from the mere mention of the conditions/wages of the workers who make the clothes of their favorite designers that they feel should be a verboten topic because it impedes their cheerleading/good time .
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Old January 30th, 2013, 08:46 PM   #57
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Again, I would say that there are appropriate places on the forum to discuss such concerns, but the thread in the tall projects section dedicated to that building is not it.

Maybe mods in that section could link forumers wanting to take the discussion in that direction to threads elsewhere in more political/skybar sections of SSC if they want to discuss that kind of issue which would keep the construction threads for the technical and aesthetic aspects of the project in question.

Though perhaps I'm just making a rod for my own back by suggesting that!
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Old January 30th, 2013, 10:37 PM   #58
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Like the media when they want more viewers for money, they mention and slander this building remorselessly.

It's not me who is spreading disinformation. You claim orascom and kempinski, two high-end companies with reputations, are in a massive conspiracy with Kimmy and his goons for 'insurance fraud' and you have the nerve to blame me for conspiracy theories? Even though there's no proof whatsoever about this? This is 911 truther/flat earther behaviour, only claiming your own opinion is valid, using fragments of obscure sources as evidence, ones who have biased agendas to fill, and then changing the topic when you can't disprove the person who makes more sense.

Who will pay for this insurance fraud? North Koreans? Allstate? For having a skyscraper collapse from their own problems?
"Uh, yeah, our entire skyscraper project just fell down and killed 300 people, so we need some cash..."
"No problem! For being so brave with working with North korea, you'll be free of all charges and your name will remain intact!" We'll just say that it couldn't support Kim Jong Un's weight, and you'll be off the hook!"
Especially when they claimed it was safe and that the problems have been dealt with, promising safety? They can't even pay Orascom with money, they gave them mining rights...(tinfoil hat on) maybe the North korean secret service is paying Kempinski in nuclear missiles in order for the Germans to start World War III! I knew it! (tinfoil hat off)

Also, wikipedia? Really?

You know what, I'll bet that's where all those western media articles copy and pasted that rumour about the nonexistant South korean report from!

...

In all seriousness, North korea should actually start a new construction boom in order to take their minds off of weapons and to improve their construction skills. It would increase business, and bring in money, keeping less people in the labour camps. I seriously hope NK accepts Google's offer for internet service. Also, the USA should stop the bullshit and lower the crippling sanctions they forced on them. Less money is fodder for extremicism. In the 80s, North Korea was its most successful, since it had the most money, but then the collapse of the Soviet Union and the economic/natural disasters started the mid-90s famine, and they've been in the gutters ever since. Now that Il is dead, progress has been noticed.

Last edited by ThatOneGuy; January 30th, 2013 at 11:01 PM.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #59
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thatoneguy and kanto...
I am seeing you are very friends....
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #60
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Whatever, screw this thread
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