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Old December 19th, 2004, 12:14 AM   #41
Falubaz
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Old December 19th, 2004, 12:55 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gottagoback
All these trolleybuses and trams -- especially the super-long ones -- how do other road users feel about them?
I dont know about the extra long ones but here in London where even single-articulated buses are new the cyclists are furious because they see them as dangerous. Apparently there are problems with blind spots - and some cyclists have been hurt (even killed) in traffic accidents with them.

I should imagine that in time the cyclists will get used to them, and learn to be aware of the blind spots.

btw, apart from Curitibia these double-articulated (bi-artic) buses are used in just a handfull of locations. Geneva, Switzerland has (or will soon have) 15 such mega-buses, of which 10 will be mega-trolleybuses. In addition the Swiss city of Zürich is reported to be looking at 15-17 similar mega-trolleybuses for an overloaded trolleybus route as an alternative to converting it to a tramway. Also, Utrecht, Holland, has a fleet of 27 megabuses. According to a French Internet discussion group there are also several (3 or 4) in Santiago de los caballeros, Dominique.


A Geneva double-articulated trolleybus.

The French xities of Caen and Nancy have a fleet each of the Bombardier TVR vehicles - these vehicles are essentially the same, except for livery, internal furnishing colours and power collection methods.

Caen uses blue based furnishings and a railway-style pantograph, with electrical return being via the guide rail. Nancy uses red based furnishings and trolleybus-style twin trolleypoles. (These vehicles are seen elsewhere in this thread)

Also in France the city of Bordeaux, had 11 (including the bus company's demonstration vehicle) 24.4m long double-articulated Mégabuses which can carry 220 passengers, 63 seated. However the opening (in 2003 & 4) of a new 3 route steel-wheel tramway means these buses may now be history.

Apart from these locations several cities have single vehicles, many of which are demonstrators that have been lent to transport operators by bus building companies for evaluation in an attempt to stimulate vehicle sales. The list includes: Liège-Verviers, Belgium; Bucharest, Rumania (mega-trolleybus); Tehran, Iran; Jamaica, and Angola. this list is subject to change. So far the reserved-lane transport system called "Phileas" which serves Eindhoven, Holland includes one double-articulated version of its distinctively styled buses but it is expected that once traffic levels rise there will be more.

Other cities have been testing these extra long buses too, for instance Dresden and Oberhausen in Germany although I have also seen it said that at least on some occaisions the vehicles required special dispensation as they exceed German regulations for the lengths of rubber-tyred vehicles.

For more info visit these pages on my website

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Buses03.htm (New Era Buses)
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Carry.htm (Carrying The Crowds)

To bring up the menu on the left frame go to the site map at the bottom of the page and click on "Welcome" and then the "enter" animation further down that page. The menu in this frame is a java applet - if you have a recent copy of Windows XP you may not have this viewer on your computer (because Microsoft lost a court case with Sun Microsystems - its owners) but you can download the Java utility for free from the www.java.com website. Alternatively click the link for a text-based fram index.


Simon
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Old December 19th, 2004, 01:01 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel
Guess.



I hate all of those bus-train-horse-carriage-batmobile-refrigerator-whatever mutations. And it seems they're building one in my city. this is terrible.

Azazel,

what is it that they are building? Can you suggest a website with more info?
Or even share a picture?


Thanks

Simon
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Old December 19th, 2004, 01:25 AM   #44
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I hate them, too. When I'm walking I hate them, and there's certainly nothing to like about them when you're in a car, and lord, if I ever encountered one of those things while I was riding a bike, I'm sure my blood would boil. I've ridden in a London "bendy bus", and it was nothing to write home about. What's the point of them? How in damnation can municipal authorities impose such monstrosities on our streets, I do not know. It is an evil kind of greed that would make someone put such a thing on a street shared by other vehicles and people, simply to save money on drivers' salaries. It's very stupid, too, as it will cause more congestion than it cures. What's so wrong with double-decker buses? They accommodate quite enough passengers for anyone.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 01:43 AM   #45
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These double articulated buses were also tested on the Metrobus-line 5 in Hamburg. I've heard it is the heaviest used busline in europe. Many students use this line from Dammtor Railway station or U-Bahn station Hoheluftbrücke to get to the university.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 02:28 AM   #46
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Apparently, an articulated bus costs US$550,000, and sits 64 people, with room for 25 standing. That's $8,600 per seated passenger when it's fully seated, or $6,100 per passenger when it is full to crush capacity. As any fule kno, most buses spend most of their time riding around nearly empty, and the bigger they are, the emptier they're likely to be at any given time. A reasonable small family car can be bought new for $3,000 per passenger. Why don't municipal officials simply stand on a street corner and give a set of new car keys to the first 89 people who come along? They could throw in a few free bicycles while they're at it.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 02:48 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggerD21
These double articulated buses were also tested on the Metrobus-line 5 in Hamburg. I've heard it is the heaviest used busline in europe. Many students use this line from Dammtor Railway station or U-Bahn station Hoheluftbrücke to get to the university.
DiggerD21, you say they tested, which implies that they failed(?)
Out of interest, why did they fail? Were they too long for your roads?

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Old December 19th, 2004, 02:56 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gottagoback
I hate them, too. When I'm walking I hate them, and there's certainly nothing to like about them when you're in a car, and lord, if I ever encountered one of those things while I was riding a bike, I'm sure my blood would boil. I've ridden in a London "bendy bus", and it was nothing to write home about. What's the point of them? How in damnation can municipal authorities impose such monstrosities on our streets, I do not know. It is an evil kind of greed that would make someone put such a thing on a street shared by other vehicles and people, simply to save money on drivers' salaries. It's very stupid, too, as it will cause more congestion than it cures. What's so wrong with double-decker buses? They accommodate quite enough passengers for anyone.
In London they are seen as "different". Also, because they have more doors and passengers do not need to pay the driver so they spend less time at bus stops, thereby speeding the overall service.

BUT, on certain routes in London the roving ticket collectors come so infrequently that many people dont buy tickets (they treat them like free buses).

Below is text taken from my website,

Simon

Deckers versus artics: which is better?

This is a question without a clear cut answer. Both have advantages and drawbacks. Deckers give passengers (who travel upstairs) a grandstand view of the districts they are travelling through, and can offer a much higher number of seats - albeit with the upstairs seating only being reach-able by able-bodied people who can climb the stairs. Critics claim that stairs on moving vehicles can be dangerous (they talk of the possibility of passengers falling if the stairs are used whilst the bus is in motion and it makes a sudden movement - braking, turning a corner, etc). Some transport planners say that especially for short journeys passengers tend to shun the upper deck and this leads to both overcrowding downstairs and under-utilisation of available space upstairs. Articulated buses will usually feature several sets of doors spread out along the vehicle's length (usually three or four), the idea being that with passengers entering and leaving at all these doorways simultaneosly bus-stop dwell times will be reduced - so speeding the service. Critics often question the wisdom of such long vehicles because of their increased land-take on crowded city streets where road space is a commodity but their advocates claim that even if the articulated bus is only half full it will still be taking far less roadspace than the cars that would be using the road had the bus not been there! It is true that artics will have a lower seating capacity than deckers - but that is partly because of the space left clear for special needs access and also because with single-deck buses it is usual for many passengers to stand (but then when I went home on the day I wrote this text part of my journey included travelling on decker where many people were standing too - albeit on the lower deck only).
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Old December 19th, 2004, 03:28 AM   #49
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Quote:
What i don't understand is why you would spend money for a system like this:

Can it really be that much cheaper than rail? Reserved busways are one thing, but that track for the bus looks like it must be as expensive as a railway
This type of track is prefabricated and modular, so parts can be made in a factory and assembled on site. Here in Adelaide they left the "track" visible, however in Essen its mostly buried.

The British systems use a different type of track.

I cant compare construction costs with railways because there are too many variables and I am not an expert in costings.

This picture shows the Adelaide, Australia, O-Bahn (kerb guided busway) which is about 11km long and where the buses often travel at speeds of up to 60mph (100km/h).

One of the advantages of the kerb guided busway is that the raised sides create a bus-only road which other vehicles cannot enter. Many of the British schemes see this as an advantage because too often other vehicles use 'ordinary' bus lanes. Another advantage is the ability to shoehorn through narrower gaps - remember whilst on the track the bus is self-steering, just like a rubber tyred metro.

Simon
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Old December 19th, 2004, 03:37 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
In London they are seen as "different".
I don't mind different. What annoys me about them is that they're a whacking great obstruction. Whether you're on foot or on a bike or in a car, if they get in you're way, they really get in your way.

Quote:
Also, because they have more doors and passengers do not need to pay the driver so they spend less time at bus stops, thereby speeding the overall service.
No reason why a double-decker can't have that feature. In fact, I know that in central London now they have ticket machines at bus stops, and passengers are not supposed to pay the driver.

Quote:
BUT, on certain routes in London the roving ticket collectors come so infrequently that many people dont buy tickets (they treat them like free buses).
That's amusing, I suppose, and not very surprising, but why didn't the people who paid for the buses think of that when they were buying them?

Quote:
Both have advantages and drawbacks. Deckers give passengers (who travel upstairs) a grandstand view of the districts they are travelling through, and can offer a much higher number of seats - albeit with the upstairs seating only being reach-able by able-bodied people who can climb the stairs.
First, the psychological benefit to the passenger of a high viewpoint is not something to be dismissed lightly. It is important that passengers should feel good about their journeys, so I would think that all other things being equal, the mere fact of the grandstand view should be enough to swing it in favour of double-deckers. As for the "only reachable by the able-bodied", that's not a problem, since more than half of people who ride buses are able-bodied anyway. The killer is the fact that double-deckers have more seats. Even if the grandstand view didn't enter the planner's calculations, the high seating capacity of double-deckers should be enough to rule their single-decker rivals out of consideration.

Quote:
Critics claim that stairs on moving vehicles can be dangerous (they talk of the possibility of passengers falling if the stairs are used whilst the bus is in motion and it makes a sudden movement - braking, turning a corner, etc).
What matters is not whether people might fall off buses, but whether they actually do, and how often. It turns out that accidents of that kind don't happen a great deal in real life, whatever imaginary fears the planners may have. Imaginary fears should not come into the decision-making.

Quote:
Some transport planners say that especially for short journeys passengers tend to shun the upper deck and this leads to both overcrowding downstairs and under-utilisation of available space upstairs.
Not something to worry about. If people find the overcrowding unbearable, they will go upstairs of their own accord. If they're happy to accept it, why should the planner interfere? Actually, if it does matter, there's a solution, namely to have a screen showing the upper deck in the lower deck. If people can see that the upper deck is empty, they will climb the stairs. It's the prospect of climbing the stairs and not finding a seat that deters them from going up.

Quote:
Articulated buses will usually feature several sets of doors spread out along the vehicle's length (usually three or four), the idea being that with passengers entering and leaving at all these doorways simultaneosly bus-stop dwell times will be reduced - so speeding the service.
By about five seconds a stop (and only when the bus is crowded). Not worth bothering about.

Quote:
Critics often question the wisdom of such long vehicles because of their increased land-take on crowded city streets where road space is a commodity but their advocates claim that even if the articulated bus is only half full it will still be taking far less roadspace than the cars that would be using the road had the bus not been there!
But it's taking up twice as much space as a double-decker bus, which is the alternative that matters! Comparison to cars is irrelevant in the context.

Quote:
It is true that artics will have a lower seating capacity than deckers - but that is partly because of the space left clear for special needs access and also because with single-deck buses it is usual for many passengers to stand (but then when I went home on the day I wrote this text part of my journey included travelling on decker where many people were standing too - albeit on the lower deck only).
This space that's left for special needs access, is it used? I'm pretty sure I've never seen a wheelchair on one of those buses. And it's usual for passengers to stand because they don't have enough seats!

I think you've summed it up nicely. The case for articulated bus is that they have big doors for the benefit of fare dodgers, and they have no seats so that wheelchair users, who never use the buses, can feel appreciated. On the distaff side, the case for double-deckers is that they have greater capacity, take up far less road-space, and offer passengers a better riding experience. Pretty conclusive, I would say. Articulated buses are a waste of money and space.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 03:43 AM   #51
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As for those trams with their pantographs and wires.... Aaaargh!
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Old December 19th, 2004, 07:35 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
DiggerD21, you say they tested, which implies that they failed(?)
Out of interest, why did they fail? Were they too long for your roads?

Simon
I don't know why they are not used anymore here. Perhaps some parts of the line were too narrow. Or perhaps also economical reasons. The passengers however accepted the bus. It was the bus you can see in Fabulaz' post above. (of course with other livery)
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Old December 19th, 2004, 03:56 PM   #53
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the bi-articulated buses are not supposed to be used on normal lines in the narrow city centers or old towns, but on a kind of the large capacity express bus lines, especialy on bus lanes just like those in curitiba on the main express lines or the silver line in Boston, without curves an similar 'things'. they are thougt to be a fast mean of urban transport like a metro, which are helped by the many feeder lines conecting the main corridors with the 'burbs. so i dont think it's a good idea to use them in the crowded london city bat rather in the wide roads connecting tube stations with the areas outside the city that do not have underground lines.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 05:00 PM   #54
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Bi-articulated buses in Utrecht, Netherlands. Built by Belgian bus constructor Van Hool.

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Old December 19th, 2004, 05:34 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz
...so i dont think it's a good idea to use them in the crowded london city bat rather in the wide roads connecting tube stations with the areas outside the city that do not have underground lines.
That sounds quite reasonable. However, there are no such roads. There are only a few really wide roads in London, and hardly any of them are near tube stations, and they don't form a network connecting the tube stations to areas outside London. To build such roads just for the busses would be a ridiculous expense.

So, I guess you're saying that articulated buses are not suited to London at all. In which case, I would agree. In fact, I would go further, and say that articulated busses are not suitable anywhere where double-deckers could operate.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 07:22 PM   #56
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but long buses could travel faster because of their many doors. traveler can get in and off much 'rapidly'. that's the reason, why they built it, i suppose. there are so many cities all around the world, which have enough wide roads. London is maybe not the best place for them. besides London did ever have its double-deckers so let it be so as it always were in its 'narrows'.
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Old December 19th, 2004, 09:07 PM   #57
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Duesseldorf – flughafen skytrain
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Old December 20th, 2004, 06:37 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz
the bi-articulated buses are not supposed to be used on normal lines in the narrow city centers or old towns, but on a kind of the large capacity express bus lines, especialy on bus lanes just like those in curitiba on the main express lines or the silver line in Boston, without curves an similar 'things'. they are thougt to be a fast mean of urban transport like a metro, which are helped by the many feeder lines conecting the main corridors with the 'burbs. so i dont think it's a good idea to use them in the crowded london city bat rather in the wide roads connecting tube stations with the areas outside the city that do not have underground lines.
The Metrobus line 5 in Hamburg has largely dedicated bus lanes with no narrow curves and follows the route of the Tram which was abandoned in the 60's. Only in the city center it could be a bit too narrow for the bus, but I haven't seen any problems with these buses there. Single articulated buses are in normal operation here.
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Old December 20th, 2004, 10:36 AM   #59
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should there not be built a new tram from the city center to the north-west of Hamburg, just like a MetroBus 5?

[hab gehoert es soll eine neue linie gebaut werden, ich meine natuerlich straBenbahn, via Niendorf Markt bis Burgwedel oder Schnelsen, bin nicht ganz sicher]
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Old December 20th, 2004, 10:47 AM   #60
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Here's a Toronto streetcar in an underground station.

Obviously, not mine, but Brad O'Brien's:

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