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Old January 29th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #21
Ebeneezer_Goode
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Ah, Faith Matters guesstimates. Didn't expect much more. Worrying numbers if true, though more for the state of logic and reason in the UK than anything else.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 11:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randolph View Post
The history of Islam in Europe has often been a bloody one - even in very recent times in the former Yugoslavia where Christian and muslims soon came to bloody conflict as the sate weakened.

In Europe the English civil war and the French revolution put an end to the notion of devine rule and seperated church and state irriversably - this with trade unionism, feminism, the chartists etc has led us to the 'free society' we now have. The Islamic world has no such comparable re defining moments.
Well, there is an example of revolutionary change; the Kemalist revolution in Turkey. Turkey has a strong democracy and is (relatively) uninhibited with any shariah concepts in its legal system. It has drifted slightly toward more conservatism in the past few years, but is still a million miles away from many other muslim countries. You wouldnt see the hijab in Turkish areas in London either.

The hope would be that south Asian muslims would look in that direction, though to be frank they tend to follow the example set in Pakistan, where attitudes have hardened thanks to the rise of militant organisations (often implicitly supported by the government). The other connection you make is with the former Yugoslavia, and the precedent set there with Kosovo, which was always part of Serbia but which seceded with our blessing because the majority had become Albanian muslims. I dont think there's ever a chance of that happening in this country, but the belief that once muslims dominate in one area it then becomes 'theirs' is clearly prevalent amongst the militant tendency, and will cause an increase in this sort friction over time.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #23
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"Multiculturalism" is really just a polite way of saying "disparate groups whose elders hope the youngsters don't marry out".

Over time, the youngsters tend to marry out anyway. This is a good thing. The last thing we need is one set of people belittling another group of people because 'they're different'.

What does amaze me is how the government in recent years seems happy to help communities isolate their children from the children of other communities through the stupid and backward 'faith schools' programme.

The best way to confront racism and intolerance between various groups in society is for their children to rub shoulders with each other and grow up as friends.

Having said all of that, as a Londoner, I think that what binds the vast majority of people is vastly more impressive and important than what separates them at the moment. I worry that it won't always be the case, but with all these stories about muslim patrols, let's not forget that it's only a few years since muslim nutters ripped apart a load of Londoners of all types, and the legacy of that abhorrence is a capital that is a little more united than it may have been, as the olympics demonstrated.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #24
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I'd sooner get rid of state-funded faith schools ...
Sounds good.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #25
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She has a point though. In some parts of our major cities, other cultures have not assimilated, but taken over.
I concur.
She does have a point.

Some parts of the country including many areas of London seem to be ghettoes where a certain culture is strongly prevalent.

It's perfectly understandable that people from certain cultures want to stick together, and many do without issue.

But the political and militant ethos of conservative Islam is what makes it more alarming than say the Jewish community who quietly keep themselves to themselves.

I think that it is clear that the concept of multiculturalism is faulty, instead we should be encouraging people to assimilate as much as possible, learn English ect. How this could be executed in a fair and un-totalitarian manner i'm not sure. Abolishing state funded faith schools would be a good place to start.

Segregation is vile and unpleasant but it seems we have sleepwalked into it.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #26
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All this being said, Im currently renovating a property on the outskirts of Stamford Hill. I must say Ive never come across such an agressive and isolationist group of people as the orthodox jewish in that area. And to that end:

Christina Patterson: The limits of multi-culturalism
When I first moved to Stamford Hill, I didn't realise that goyim were about as welcome in Hasidic Jewish shops as Martin Luther King at a Klu Klux Klan convention

I would like to teach some of my neighbours some manners. I would like, for example, to say to the man who drove the wrong way up a one-way street on Sunday night, while chatting away on his mobile phone, and to the man who nearly backed into me yesterday, while also chatting on his mobile phone, and to the man who drove into my friend's van last week, while also chatting on his mobile phone, that while they clearly enjoy the art of conversation, it's one that doesn't combine brilliantly with driving.

And I would like to say to the man who drove the wrong way into the car park at Morrisons, and then hooted me, and who parked in a mother and baby slot when he was on his own, and the car park was practically empty, that it seemed a rather aggressive thing to do, and also rather lazy, and I would like to say to the man from whom I bought some paper cups, and who handled my money as if it had been dipped in anthrax, that it wouldn't kill him to say "please" or "thank you", and I would like to say to the fishmonger who asked my (black) friend whether he really wanted to buy some fish from his shop, that you should probably assume that if someone is asking for fish in your shop, then the answer is in the affirmative.

And I would like to say to the little boy who sat bang in the middle of two seats on the bus and who, when I tried to sit next to him, leapt up as if infection from the ebola virus was imminent, that it does slightly make one feel like a pariah, and I would like to say to the women who roam the streets with double-decker pushchairs and vast armies of children, that it's sometimes nice to allow someone else to get past, and I would like to say to all these people that I don't care if they wear frock-coats, and funny suits and hats covered in plastic bags, and insist on wearing their hair in ringlets (if they're male) or covered up by wigs (if they're female), but I do think they could treat their neighbours with a bit more courtesy and just a little bit more respect.

When I moved to Stamford Hill, 12 years ago, I didn't realise that goyim were about as welcome in the Hasidic Jewish shops as Martin Luther King at a Klu Klux Klan convention. I didn't realise that a purchase by a goy was a crime to be punished with monosyllabic terseness, or that bus seats were a potential source of contamination, or that road signs, and parking restrictions, were for people who hadn't been chosen by God. And while none of this is a source of anything much more than irritation, when I see an eight-year-old boy recoiling from a normal-looking woman (because, presumably, he has been taught that she is dirty or dangerous, or, heaven forbid, dripping with menstrual blood) it makes me sad.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...m-2036861.html

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Old January 30th, 2013, 03:51 AM   #27
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Well, there is an example of revolutionary change; the Kemalist revolution in Turkey. Turkey has a strong democracy and is (relatively) uninhibited with any shariah concepts in its legal system. It has drifted slightly toward more conservatism in the past few years, but is still a million miles away from many other muslim countries. You wouldnt see the hijab in Turkish areas in London either. The hope would be that south Asian muslims would look in that direction, though to be frank they tend to follow the example set in Pakistan, where attitudes have hardened thanks to the rise of militant organisations (often implicitly supported by the government). The other connection you make is with the former Yugoslavia, and the precedent set there with Kosovo, which was always part of Serbia but which seceded with our blessing because the majority had become Albanian muslims. I dont think there's ever a chance of that happening in this country, but the belief that once muslims dominate in one area it then becomes 'theirs' is clearly prevalent amongst the militant tendency, and will cause an increase in this sort friction over time.
You cite one example, kudos to Ataturk, but I think it's apposite to say that the legacy of the Enlightenment largely passed Islam by.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 08:15 AM   #28
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That's an equally nasty piece gavrosh, drivers on mobiles isn't limited to the Jewish faith:

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/the-li...ti-culturalism

Her email replies to complaints are bizarre.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 09:30 AM   #29
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I've lived in east London all my life. I've never seen the Muslim community as isolated as.it is now. That is a fairly simple fact that you can't excuse no matter how much you'd like to, I'm afraid. Often it just shows up as women wearing hijabs or men not looking women in the eye, but clearly there's a more antagonistic strain. The example that the author makes about the areas being now defined as 'Muslim' has happened in various areas of east London. It is.a clear example of how certain Muslims seem to believe that once they're predominant in an area, they're free to apply sharia there. That simply cannot be allowed to happen. Hopefully mainstream Muslims will put the idiots in line, but if not them the authorities need to stamp it out.
Give it time. The only Muslims who make money are the ambitious young guys who want to marry well and get qualified as accountants and doctors. They end up highly assimilated and sociable. The rest will get priced out of Whitechapel as the area continues relentlessly upmarket.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #30
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I call bullshit on this. These bnp type racists always try and present themselves as reasonable and yada yada while giving a completely warped and ultimately prejudiced and unfair view.

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Old January 30th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #31
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Give it time. The only Muslims who make money are the ambitious young guys who want to marry well and get qualified as accountants and doctors. They end up highly assimilated and sociable. The rest will get priced out of Whitechapel as the area continues relentlessly upmarket.
Oh right so no worries then....they'll just take their rancid ideology to a cheaper part of east London and the middle classes wont have to worry about it....
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Old January 30th, 2013, 10:23 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
That's an equally nasty piece gavrosh, drivers on mobiles isn't limited to the Jewish faith:

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/the-li...ti-culturalism

Her email replies to complaints are bizarre.
Youre really failing to see the wood from the trees here. As ive stated in posts on this thread, there are many immigrant populations that fit well into London while maintaining their own identity. Turkish (muslim) populations in Enfield and Harringay, for example, or Vietnamese in Tower Hamlets and Hackney. There are those, however, who are not fitting in, such as the Haredi in Stamford Hill - which is totally their own decision - or some Bangladeshi groups in Whitechapel. Dismissing criticism of these group's failure to integrate as simple racism really is quite short-sighted, and frankly, quite thick.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:02 AM   #33
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Interestingly, I travel through Acton once every few weeks on a bus or bike.

Lets be honest, the place was already the arse end of West London. Endless council blocks, betting shops. pawn shops off licenses and low class pubs with alcohol & Cigarette weathered indigenous (or west Indian) men pouring out that barely speak their native tongue beyond expletives - filth and dirt everywhere. Its not surprising that the place has become the home to immigrants - rent prices are very very low. Those remaining white people are often Polish. You just don't find British owned shops in the High street outside of the big chains they are Polish or Arabic (other than the list of low end premises mentioned earlier)

These type of areas appear to be ripe for newcomers to take control. It might not be what local people want, but these new shops are thriving - they were not before.

However, on the bus you will see young Muslim girls covered in make up and tight clothes. If it wasn't for their skin tone and a (usually very feminine and fancy) scarf over their heads, you would think they were local Acton girls for many generations! This aspect fills me with some pride.

I am hoping that the freedoms presented by living in this country will be more powerful than the unwelcome parts of outside influences. This is a free country and that will endure if people want to succeed. Personally, I am not bothered if people feel uncomfortable drinking in the street (odd bedfellows Polish labourers and Muslims :Z ) However, I will take a stand if woman start to be criticised for their dress as happened in Australia over beachwear years back. I also notice certain peoples recoiling at dogs on leads. Dogs are part of my society so deal with it! Also, there was a big issue about homophobic signs going up in East London.

I dont know how we have ended up in a situation with government after government promising to limit immigration. I suspect its the thought of money and a growing economy that will always win. The more people we have, the healthier our economy will be - that argument.

The Tories came to power promising to only allow immigration from the EU or essential careers. However, there was a big news story about a Pakistani fish monger who sings about his prices in the East end. He has become quite a celebrity. However, he came here one year ago to sell fish in a market....how it that an essential work?

Personally, I would hate to live in any society that was not made up of all types of people. However, it is essential that a society retains its character (certainly in the short term) and I think change is happening too quickly for our own good.

I have said before, if I had my way, all people that come to MY country to live an work will sign an agreement. There is nothing wrong in laying down certain criteria - I would expect this if I was going to improve my life by emigrating to a new country. If you commit certain crimes you LEAVE! No ifs or buts! If you defraud the state you LEAVE! If you import intolerance and hatred you LEAVE! We only want good hard working people who are going to improve and economy and support our ideals and freedoms. It is not difficult to work out which ones they are. I think if all developed countries did this, the trickle down would benefit the whole world in both wealth and stability - afterall, intolerant countries never seem to prosper.

This is the only aspect of European law that disagree with very strongly (I am pro European) Equality of rights without any expectation of the individual.

If I was Prime minister I would either renegotiate this one law or break it.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:12 AM   #34
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I call bullshit on this. These bnp type racists always try and present themselves as reasonable and yada yada while giving a completely warped and ultimately prejudiced and unfair view.
Calling every debate about immigration as racist is unfair and creates terrible bad feeling IMO. I am not white and it is still a free coutry!
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:16 AM   #35
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Let's be clear.. I am not talking about any debate on immigration, I'm talking about this article, and other similar anecdotal pieces many of which you may find on bnp's website.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:24 AM   #36
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Let's be clear.. I am not talking about any debate on immigration, I'm talking about this article, and other similar anecdotal pieces many of which you may find on bnp's website.
Even it it were the case that this is a BNP ruse (the BNP are not that bright to be honest - we had one on here not so long ago) Much of what is said is true. You can see the stories about such matters being presented by the BBC and other press here and there.

I myself have recently been confronted by a gang of drunk - yes - drunk Muslim men. However, I would rather have a Muslim neighbour than a lot of British people. Most are decent normal people just wanting to get on. We are, after all, talking about human beings - its just human nature.

Having said that, I choose not to live in an area that has become something so different to what I knew when I grew up. Thats not wrong. The shops are all different the language the culture the schools etc etc I grew up in Hounslow and about 40% people I grew up with were Asian. The Asian people are still there and very West London. The white people are now Predominantly Polish. My childhood memories are just that now - memories. Last time I went there I heard conversations in Polish. I dont understand what people are saying. The place I grew up in is gone now in that sense. I cant pretend I dont feel hurt by that.

The article is a good starting point for a debate.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:26 AM   #37
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You'd rather have a Muslim neighbor than a lot of British people.. That's racist

Why can't you just say you'd like a good neighbor without bringing race/creed into it?
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #38
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People have the weirdest working definition of racism these days.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
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I call bullshit on this. These bnp type racists always try and present themselves as reasonable and yada yada while giving a completely warped and ultimately prejudiced and unfair view.
Is that the depth of thought you've put into this issue? Sounds like someone from the BNP might say it, so it must be bullshit? People like you are the problem my friend. Even if she's racist, which I see little indication of, the points should be disputed on their own merit. If they're valid coming from a liberal progressive, then they're valid coming from a fascist too.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:49 AM   #40
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You'd rather have a Muslim neighbor than a lot of British people.. That's racist

Why can't you just say you'd like a good neighbor without bringing race/creed into it?
You are beginning to sound like that the crowd in the 'Life of Brian'

"Now he's having a go at the flowers!"
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The headlines read: 'another footballer is charged with sexual miscontuct'!

Is it pure coincidence that a mans Scrotum resembles a brain - requisite with both hemispheres, and its truncated spinal cord - always in search of sensation?
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