Is multiculturalism still working in London?

[PadArch]

Haha I love that film

[spindrift]

Of course we can debate immigration without sounding racist. Those two articles sound racist to me, rudeness in shops isn't exclusive to muslims and drivers on mobiles isn't exclusive to jews.

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

Calling every debate about immigration as racist is unfair and creates terrible bad feeling IMO. I am not white and it is still a free coutry!

Agreed.

It's not always race anyway, similar tensions arise when populations are dispelled and areas changed by - predominantly white British - students.

The same thing happens when people start moving to the countryside and ruining village communities by driving the house prices up.

[PadArch]

Originally Posted by spindrift

Of course we can debate immigration without sounding racist. Those two articles sound racist to me, rudeness in shops isn't exclusive to muslims and drivers on mobiles isn't exclusive to jews.

Exactly.

[PadArch]

Originally Posted by Ebeneezer_Goode

Is that the depth of thought you've put into this issue? Sounds like someone from the BNP might say it, so it must be bullshit? People like you are the problem my friend. Even if she's racist, which I see little indication of, the points should be disputed on their own merit. If they're valid coming from a liberal progressive, then they're valid coming from a fascist too.

No it's bullshit because it's racist and anecdotal. It also happens to resemble a lot of the stuff I've heard from the bnp.

[spindrift]

"Is multiculturalism working?"

"No! I was walking down the road and a black person called me a penis and ran away laughing"

Ok, and the flip side to that is that the fastest-growing race in the UK is "Mixed".

Rather than the ominous forebodings of strife, carnage, violence and mayhem with the obligatory rivers of blood Brits are instead welcoming foreigners, having red-hot how's your father and sweaty sex with immigrants and making babies. Unverifiable anecdote over cold hard facts.

[jack_jones]

Originally Posted by PadArch

I call bullshit on this. These bnp type racists always try and present themselves as reasonable and yada yada while giving a completely warped and ultimately prejudiced and unfair view.

What a ridiculous comment. Just because she's talking about immigration you automatically identify her as a racist BNP supporter. It's people like you which make the topic of immigration so hard to discuss because people fear of being resembled a racist if we speak out about immigration changing who we are and where we are.

[Ebeneezer_Goode]

Originally Posted by PadArch

No it's bullshit because it's racist and anecdotal.

It's disingenuous to dismiss it all as anecdotal. Clearly some is, of course it is, she's talking about her experiences and her changing neighbourhood. On the other hand she makes reference to incidents and trends that are there for everyone to see.

It also happens to resemble a lot of the stuff I've heard from the bnp.

Irrelevant. Or at least it should be.

[jack_jones]

Originally Posted by spindrift

Ok, and the flip side to that is that the fastest-growing race in the UK is "Mixed".

Do you have a source please? This is hard to believe.

[spindrift]

The mixed race group is the fastest growing ethnic minority group in the UK and is expected to become the largest by 2020.

Britain has one of the highest rates of interracial relationships in the western world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10000910

[Ebeneezer_Goode]

That at least is good news. I'm wary of taking those sorts of projections for granted though. I'm also not sure how "mixed race" really qualifies as an ethnicity at all.

[jack_jones]

Originally Posted by spindrift

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10000910

So mixed is the fastest growing 'Ethnic Minority' group in the UK, NOT the fastest overall growing race however.

[spindrift]

Whatever. As a robust indication that the doom-sayers are wrong it's a doozy.

[Gavrosh]

I believe it is true, and the source is that last census.

I am a great believer in immigration into the country, where immigrants are prepared to work hard, pay taxes and try to learn the language and culture. For this reason i believe that the current debate concerning the EU is generally aside show, in that most EU immigrants do just that. It is not racist to point out that certain sections of the immigrant population for one reason or another find it hard to integrate. From what I can see, religion is a decisive factor there, and I agree that the banning of faith schools should be actively pursued to that end.

[Loathing]

The critical point for any intelligent person is not racism or prejudice, but rather where to drawn the line with regard to cultural change. I.e., British morality, law, worldview, and culture in general, have their roots in certain European philosophical and religious traditions. Many of us may not be Christians but most of us stick roughly to New Testament ideas of what's right and what's wrong. Obviously that's a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea. The point is that our worldview and our society is based on certain ideas and ideals. Lots of those ideals are completely incompatible with Orthodox Islam, or Rastafarianism, or Communism, or any number of 'foreign' ideologies. Of course most of us believe in tolerating (or even welcoming) these groups, but generally we would prefer them to be minority groups. I, for one, would not like to see Sharia law applied to a constituency of the UK, even if the constituents democratically voted for it. My reasoning is that I believe in the aforementioned British/European cultural ideals, and I would not like to seem them eroded or expunged in the majority.

The question is: at which point exactly do we draw a line? I love living in a diverse city but I also attach a great deal of value to morality, law, responsibility to one's country, &c. That's why I think a debate on multiculturalism is interesting and important. Not because I'm "racist"/"prejudiced", but because I don't want this country to lose things that I value. And a post-hippie attitude of open arms without any thought simply doesn't cut it, because that's a lazy and careless (and selfish) way of approaching a problem with seriously high stakes.

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by spindrift

"Is multiculturalism working?"

"No! I was walking down the road and a black person called me a penis and ran away laughing"

Ok, and the flip side to that is that the fastest-growing race in the UK is "Mixed".

Rather than the ominous forebodings of strife, carnage, violence and mayhem with the obligatory rivers of blood Brits are instead welcoming foreigners, having red-hot how's your father and sweaty sex with immigrants and making babies. Unverifiable anecdote over cold hard facts.

I am a result of this 'filthy' miscegeny

I love the fact that the future of humanity is being moulded in my country. It is the human races destiny to mix. This cannot be avoided.

However, there are groups that will NOT mix. Indeed to do so,or to give up ones faith for none or another could be on pain of death. This is a potential problem for the future.

An example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by Loathing

The critical point for any intelligent person is not racism or prejudice, but rather where to drawn the line with regard to cultural change. I.e., British morality, law, worldview, and culture in general, have their roots in certain European philosophical and religious traditions. Many of us may not be Christians but most of us stick roughly to New Testament ideas of what's right and what's wrong. Obviously that's a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea. The point is that our worldview and our society is based on certain ideas and ideals. Lots of those ideals are completely incompatible with Orthodox Islam, or Rastafarianism, or Communism, or any number of 'foreign' ideologies. Of course most of us believe in tolerating (or even welcoming) these groups, but generally we would prefer them to be minority groups. I, for one, would not like to see Sharia law applied to a constituency of the UK, even if the constituents democratically voted for it. My reasoning is that I believe in the aforementioned British/European cultural ideals, and I would not like to seem them eroded or expunged in the majority.

The question is: at which point exactly do we draw a line? I love living in a diverse city but I also attach a great deal of value to morality, law, responsibility to one's country, &c. That's why I think a debate on multiculturalism is interesting and important. Not because I'm "racist"/"prejudiced", but because I don't want this country to lose things that I value. And a post-hippie attitude of open arms without any thought simply doesn't cut it, because that's a lazy and careless (and selfish) way of approaching a problem with seriously high stakes.

Indeed it is these European ideals honed and moulded over centuries that allow others to bring with them their beliefs and faiths without prejudice or hindrance - unlike in many other parts of the world. Interesting, no- dangerous that people cannot see the connection between successful coexistence and prosperity.

[Gavrosh]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

Interesting, no- dangerous that people cannot see the connection between successful coexistence and prosperity.

I'm sure that most people can plainly see that tolerance, rational thought, the study of the arts and sciences, democracy, a robust legal system and mixed economy capitalism are connected to prosperity. Its whether prosperity, or something else entirely is their ultimate goal that will define whether they attach any importance to the drivers of it. If their ultimate goal is to live like people did in the 7th century, then the answer is probably "no".

[i_like_concrete]

Originally Posted by Loathing

The critical point for any intelligent person is not racism or prejudice, but rather where to drawn the line with regard to cultural change. I.e., British morality, law, worldview, and culture in general, have their roots in certain European philosophical and religious traditions. Many of us may not be Christians but most of us stick roughly to New Testament ideas of what's right and what's wrong. Obviously that's a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea. The point is that our worldview and our society is based on certain ideas and ideals. Lots of those ideals are completely incompatible with Orthodox Islam, or Rastafarianism, or Communism, or any number of 'foreign' ideologies. Of course most of us believe in tolerating (or even welcoming) these groups, but generally we would prefer them to be minority groups. I, for one, would not like to see Sharia law applied to a constituency of the UK, even if the constituents democratically voted for it. My reasoning is that I believe in the aforementioned British/European cultural ideals, and I would not like to seem them eroded or expunged in the majority.

How on earth can we expect this to be a rational debate when 1) The starting point is an article that is at best one person's view of a changing environment, with very little context or relevance to the wider world; and 2) People come along with fantastical ideas about the 'threat' being faced. Do you genuinely believe that the entire democratic structure of this country is under threat, that law making is going to be devolved to constituency level and that, beyond that, a significant majority would really be voting in favour of Sharia law? This, to me, prangs of a deep rooted paranoia influenced by what I can only assume is sensationalist propaganda.

It's very well to retort with, "well I was only stating what I think", but all these silly statements do is up the ante of the discussion, polarising the arguments between, BAN ALL MUSLIMS, and LET THE WORLD IN, when, in fact, the debate is far more complex and really doesn't need extreme arguments suggesting that parts of the UK are going to be ruled by Sharia law.

The question is: at which point exactly do we draw a line? I love living in a diverse city but I also attach a great deal of value to morality, law, responsibility to one's country, &c. That's why I think a debate on multiculturalism is interesting and important. Not because I'm "racist"/"prejudiced", but because I don't want this country to lose things that I value. And a post-hippie attitude of open arms without any thought simply doesn't cut it, because that's a lazy and careless (and selfish) way of approaching a problem with seriously high stakes.

I don't think this is the question at all, particularly as, surprise surprise, this whole debate centres around Islam, and Muslim immigrants. Another internet debate in which a predominantly white middle class demographic start assuming what Muslims think and start trying to apply motive to their actions. Obviously a sign in a shop asking people not to drink outside IS THE FIRST STEP TO AN ISLAMIC REPUBLIC!? Well, it probably isn't, but it's not as fun to discuss reality is it?

[Loathing]

Actually you've inferred a whole bunch of things that I never implied. Your worst logical fallacy is that you've connected my opinions with the opinions in the OP's article, when obviously there's no connection between us. I only mentioned Sharia law because it's a topic that everyone is familiar with, and it's been the topic of many BBC reports recently. I certainly did not paint an apocalyptic picture of impending threats - you just made that up. My example was intentionally extreme because I was identifying a point where almost everyone would 'draw the line', establishing an extreme pole as a reference point; thus, clearly the example was not meant to reflect a likely scenario.

My point is that the rapidly changing cultural composition of the UK could have adverse effects, and we need to identify the values that are important to us and make sure they are defended. If you deny that's a problem then I'm afraid you're either blind or you just don't care about the enshrined values and principles of this country. It doesn't take long for a culture to change beyond recognition and for the worse. See for example how the worst parts of American corporate culture or food culture have been adopted in this country and the effects of them. This isn't about Muslims or about immigration, it's about principles and culture in the broadest sense.