Is multiculturalism still working in London?

[spindrift]

loathing, can you cite any actual examples of how your culture has been eroded, reduced, or adversely affected in anyway by immigration or multi culturalism?

It's a genuine question, it's similar to the claims from the CofE that allowing gay marriage would erode the sanctity of existing marriages. I simply don't understand that suggestion.

Is British culture diminished by immigration? How? What has changed, exactly?

[Loathing]

But I never made even the slightest suggestion that immigration per se is the problem...

[mulattokid]

I would argue that British culture is enriched by multiculturalism. I would hate it otherwise. I would also argue that unchecked immigration is to the detriment of all, including newcomers. I would describe whole areas as having changed out of recognition.

An example of the detriment? I lived in Shepherds Bush until 2009. The place very quickly became a place of houses and flats converted into tiny one room bedsits housing vast numbers iterate peoples (I carried out the voter registration canvassing for the borough) Its like converting a whole street into cheap hotels. Property was very quickly bought up by unscrupulous Rachmanite landlords with unpronounceable names out to make lots of money. No resident was permanent, there is no community any more, no one takes an interest in the cleanliness of the street or local concerns. Peoples minds are on another home elsewhere and securing that homes future. This is just a place to work - like some great big gloomy factory. I even found the side of my house became a great secluded place for prostitutes to service the homesick new workers.

The worst initial problems were solved very quickly , but at great cost to the country. Shepherds Bus green became a huge refugee like camp with men looking for work sleeping out all night in their hundreds! They were often drunk but mostly harmless. This dissipated soon after the police and local authority moved into action. Still, my street remained an outside toilet until I moved. My friend had to bolt her front gate, causing her all sorts of difficulties. All this because of lack of planning.

This was one of the reasons why I sold up and moved out to the suburbs.

I was all in favour of unlimited borders in the EU until a few years ago. I don't think its a sensible plan now. I am very much in favour of planned immigration as immigration should be a positive experience for everybody - like the Australian system.

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by Loathing

My point is that the rapidly changing cultural composition of the UK could have adverse effects, and we need to identify the values that are important to us and make sure they are defended. If you deny that's a problem then I'm afraid you're either blind or you just don't care about the enshrined values and principles of this country.

What, exactly, are you saying we need to defend and how is it being threatened please?

I would agree with gavrosh and mulattokid that parts of London feel mono-cultural and almost an enclave. It's terrifying sometimes when I visit Chiswick and only see braying toffs in stupid red trousers, but I don't think it's detrimental to London.

[ill tonkso]

The shops used to be owned by local families that had owned them for generations and knew everyone around. Now they are owned by immigrants who employ people for short periods when they first come to the UK. People no longer get to know their local shopkeepers. That is one big loss to the community.

That's the case in Pompey anyway.

[spindrift]

Well, planning plays a part in that, as mulattokid said. Unscrupulous landlords who don't care about their properties, so the poor people who live there may be being exploited by landlords who break the law, then the residents get criticised for living in such a run-down area!

[ill tonkso]

The Landlords are often not British-born either.

[Loathing]

@spindrift,

An argument about shifting culture and values is extremely difficult to make because it's not a science and yet it's extremely complicated. I don't have time to do such an argument justice. What I will say is that no evidence is needed to point out that this country's attitudes have shifted pretty dramatically with each new decade. If you look at cultures across the world historically, it is outside forces that cause the big shifts. Sometimes those shifts have been for the worse, sometimes for the better.

I think in Britain we have a pretty damn good society worth preserving (of course there are problems and things that should changed). So we should scrutinise outside forces of any kind and make sure they actually add to our society. We should not be shying away from debate for fear of being called names.

[Loathing]

Do I really need to list out the things about our society that are worth defending!? You think all of our beliefs and systems just sprung out of the ground?

[i_like_concrete]

It would be better for you to demonstrate which ones you think are under threat, and from where.

And maybe this time don't throw around words like Sharia Law if you don't want people to get the wrong impression.

[Loathing]

And although I wouldn't use the word 'threat', an example of a potential problem is any group that refuses to assimilate to the bare minimum of our social system and values and language. Or any group that is extremely inward looking. Or groups not interested in community and responsibility. I'm not going name specific groups because my point is and always has been a general one: that we should scrutinise new people, ideas, and shifts introduced to this country and then debate them. I'm not interested in naming and shaming, but I am frustrated by people trying to shut down the debate but crying 'racism!' Or 'bigotry!'

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by spindrift

Is British culture diminished by immigration? How? What has changed, exactly?

Sorry to butt in like this but I'd say that's pretty self-evident. Areas of all huge cities ends up with a totally displaced British culture, displaced mainly for various third world cultures, shops, restaurants, etc. These people live somewhere, and they displace the original populations in the flats they rent, own, or whatever they do.

It's fairly simple, don't really see how you cannot see this.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

I am a result of this 'filthy' miscegeny

I love the fact that the future of humanity is being moulded in my country. It is the human races destiny to mix. This cannot be avoided.

But I do not see any reasons to bring about circumstances so that this happens even quicker, and additionally promote and "talk up" the notion of interracial relationships etc. It isn't BETTER than non-mixed. This is what many folks like you don't seem to get.

And if you, yourself, as a mixed person, actually believe it's better, that it somehow "enhances" something, then guess what, the case could be made that you are indeed..... the filty R-word....

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by Loathing

You think all of our beliefs and systems just sprung out of the ground?

I think a very large part of what being English means is our tolerant, fair-minded attitude. We are also naturally sanguine and unlikely to get excited, either with religious fervour or extreme politics. Calm. Polite. Not aggressively sarcastic.

My corner shop in E11 was run by Hindus. The family had a few properties around the area that the extended family renovated and occupied. My Polish housemate would chat to him in Hindi, she was doing Indian Studies, Poland and India having strong trade/cultural links. My neighbour was Irish, opposite was a muslim gentleman with 6 kids who worked at New Spitalfield Market and would give me boxes of fruit because I signed his wife's Home Office application. Elsewhere on the street were Australians, West Indians, South Africans, you could walk up Leytonstone High Road and hear a dozen different languages before you got to the tube. It's a rich tapestry, and it's also the ebb and flow of London, people arrive and depart, congregate and fracture and become immersed in the city and the community. I cannot think of any examples of how our traditions have been eroded.

Frankly, I'm more worried that in fifteen/twenty years the whole of East London will be like Docklands with anything left of the old East End being fake and for tourists.

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by dexter26

But I do not see any reasons to bring about circumstances so that this happens even quicker, and additionally promote and "talk up" the notion of interracial relationships etc. It isn't BETTER than non-mixed. This is what many folks like you don't seem to get.

And if you, yourself, as a mixed person, actually believe it's better, that it somehow "enhances" something, then guess what, the case could be made that you are indeed..... the filty R-word....

R word???? filthy rich???? Speak English in my country please.

But wait a minute? I though you were imprisoned for life ? Well a secure hospital I mean. I thought insanity was a fair conclusion.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by spindrift

It's a rich tapestry, and it's also the ebb and flow of London, people arrive and depart, congregate and fracture and become immersed in the city and the community. I cannot think of any examples of how our traditions have been eroded.

Frankly, I'm more worried that in fifteen/twenty years the whole of East London will be like Docklands with anything left of the old East End being fake and for tourists.

May I ask your age? Do you think it's always been the same? Do you understand that "multiculturalism" has changed London quite a lot since, say, 1970, even if there were quite a few immigrants even then (but not close to today's level).

I'd like to propose that Britain has lost SOMETHING, things, culture, or whaver, that cannot really be measured in any meaningful or scientific way, since "multiculturalism" shot off as much as it has the last 30 to 40 years. Me in Oslo is starting to notice that we are losing certain "unspoken" features of our culture, with the increasing immigration and globalization. These are "unspoken features" of our culture that I'd suggest are of incredible value, but the value of it is really impossible to set properly, as it's so intangible and hard to define/explain.

And further, I'd like to propose that the possibility is present that this happened in London and large parts of the UK possibly even before you were born - you started losing "undefinable and unspoken" features of your own culture. You might not have the age to realize and see this.

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by dexter26

Sorry to butt in like this but I'd say that's pretty self-evident. Areas of all huge cities ends up with a totally displaced British culture, displaced mainly for various third world cultures, shops, restaurants, etc. These people live somewhere, and they displace the original populations in the flats they rent, own, or whatever they do.

It's fairly simple, don't really see how you cannot see this.

I'd be surprised if you could name an area of a British city that was wholly British and is now wholly displaced by third-world arrivals.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

R word???? filthy rich???? Speak English in my country please.

But wait a minute? I though you were imprisoned for life ? Well a secure hospital I mean. I thought insanity was a fair conclusion.

Lol, funny.

You just don't get it. Mixed couples and mixed race kids are not better than non-mixed, and if anyone says so, they're the complete opposite of Nazis and extreme racists, but JUST AS BAD. This is my opinion and yes I'm sticking to it.

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by dexter26

May I ask your age? Do you think it's always been the same? Do you understand that "multiculturalism" has changed London quite a lot since, say, 1970, even if there were quite a few immigrants even then (but not close to today's level).

47. I moved to London in 1990 and lived there twenty years. You?

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by dexter26

Lol, funny.

You just don't get it. Mixed couples and mixed race kids are not better than non-mixed, and if anyone says so, they're the complete opposite of Nazis and extreme racists, but JUST AS BAD. This is my opinion and yes I'm sticking to it.

Why are you stridently arguing against something nobody's said?