Is multiculturalism still working in London?

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by Tinpusher

You haven't caught him out, or exposed him...You really haven't. He is being quite reasonable.

Apart from lying about what people have said.

[Gavrosh]

Originally Posted by spindrift

Honour killing is another word for murder. Sadly, murder wasn't invented by immigrants. What's described as honour killings is often about male violence, like a man so ashamed of losing his money he carries out a terrible act

Oh look, i can paste things too:

Every year in the United Kingdom (UK), officials estimate that at least a dozen women are victims of honor killings, almost exclusively within Asian and Middle Eastern families.[42] Often cases cannot be resolved due to the unwillingness of family, relatives and communities to testify. A 2006 BBC poll for the Asian network in the UK found that one in ten of the 500 young Asians polled said that they could condone the killing of someone who dishonored their family.[43] In the UK, in December 2005, Nazir Afzal, Director, west London, of Britain's Crown Prosecution Service, stated that the United Kingdom has seen "at least a dozen honour killings" between 2004 and 2005.[44] While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators' cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the UK's Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation is reported to have said: "about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu and Sikh."[45]
In 2010, Britain saw a 47% rise of honor-related crimes. Data from police agencies in the UK report 2283 cases in 2010, and an estimated of 500 more from jurisdictions that did not provide reports. Most of the attacks were conducted in cities that had high immigrant populations.[46]

Hinting that honour killing is equivalent to the sort of thing you posted is really quite sad, especially for the women and children who are the overwhelming victims of it.

[Tinpusher]

Originally Posted by spindrift

Apart from lying about what people have said.

But he hasn't. Endex.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by Tinpusher

I agree with this statement. Because to overtly stress that you believe racial mixing is better, and makes you better, than none mixing...That is discriminating against people who choose not to mix.

Yes, I believe you got the point I tried to get across correctly. It's not inherently better, but not necessarily worse either. That is my simple point.


And the real truth, behind all the slogans and gimmicks these types of debates tend to generate, is that my "agenda" actually is true anti-racism, which in my book entails not putting immigrants, or their cultures, on pedestals above the original inhabitants'.

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by Tinpusher

Hmmm. I get the distinct impression that mulattokid is seeing something in dexter's replies that I am not.

You haven't caught him out, or exposed him...You really haven't. He is being quite reasonable.

Why should human beings mix? Why is it inevitable? Who is involved in this mixing and why? There is a heavy dose of frankly insulting implication, that only the best humans will pick a mate from a different race, and those who like their own kith and kin are wrong.

I couldn't give a shit whether we end up going through the melting pot or not...humanity does or doesn't and I'll be long gone in 100 years so why care?

Although religion is a backwards step for humanity, and rather retarded, and we should do our best to kill it off in the name of progress.

Well let me give you a good example. Maybe you are not so sensitive about it not (I assume) being mixed race yourself.

He jumped on me for suggesting that the world will be mixed race (I think very much so by about 400 years +) He then called me a name - the filthy R word in the same sentence. Still Dont know what that refers to. You will accept that the mixing of races is clearlyunfavourable to him? What does that make me? Mixing happens becuase people fall in love. He states that foreign dark men look for lovely Norwegian women where he lives. He states this! come on!


Now, about the world mixing. Look at my avatar and what do you see? A sweet little blond haired blue eyed boy? That is my son my beautifl child - he is stunning My father has skin as black as could be and all the associated 'so called' African like features - frizzy hair Broad nose etc etc. African genes are found in the UK and are traced back to black Roman legionnaires. Spanish people have Arabic genes - Welsh people have Spanish genes. Indigenous Celtic British people are actually traced back to Catalan people that later mixed with Normans and Norse etc etc. The world is already mixed an that was without easy transport. Being mixed does not mean that you look mixed. Again, look at my son.

there is no implication or suggestion that there is any superiority in picking to mix. Who chooses who they fall in love with for God sake. Therefore, it is inevitable. We are already half way there.

[spindrift]

I'm not hinting, I'm stating that violence against women is not a race-based debate.

This is the crux of the matter: murder is murder. Violence is violence. Abuse is abuse.

The flipside of the shorthand “honour killing” is that there is something exonerating in the phrase.

Of course, as Paul Whittaker, Chief Crown Prosecutor in the case, pointed out, it is a contradiction in terms: “There is no honour in murder.” There is also the risk that in classifying this violence as something different – belonging to “them”, the immigrants, rather than “us”, the British – we hinder discussion of it, due to discomfort on one side and defensiveness on the other.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/li...der-its-simple

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by Tinpusher

But he hasn't. Endex.

You think I've never lived in London? He made a series of assumptions that were completely wrong and has avoided all subsequent questions like:

I'd be surprised if you could name an area of a British city that was wholly British and is now wholly displaced by third-world arrivals.

[Tinpusher]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

He jumped on me for suggesting that the world will be mixed race (I think very much so by about 400 years +)

I don't see it that way. He said there is no better or worse in it...BUT if you DO believe that mixed is better. Then THE CASE CAN BE ARGUED that you are racist. I'm using caps to highlight, not shout BTW.

Originally Posted by mulattokid

there is no implication or suggestion that there is any superiority in picking to mix. Who chooses who they fall in love with for God sake. Therefore, it is inevitable.

No problems here either. You fall in love with who you fall in love with. But many cultures prevent you acting on it because different = bad. Old crusty dads preventing their daughter marrying the nice white guy they met at college etc (and vice versa).

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by Tinpusher

I agree with this statement. Because to overtly stress that you believe racial mixing is better, and makes you better, than none mixing...That is discriminating against people who choose not to mix.
.

Nobody 'chooses' to mix! People fall in love.

Show me where I have stated that mixing is a better than not mixing?

[jdjones]

Originally Posted by spindrift

I'm not hinting, I'm stating that violence against women is not a race-based debate.



http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/li...der-its-simple

Exactly, how many white men have murdered their girlfriends for disrespecting and/or cheating on them? Are these not honour killings too? Quite simply the term honour killings are pretty much only slapped on family murders in brown families. A man who jumps out of a balcony holding his two children to their deaths because his wife is planning to leave him, is this not an honour killing? A man who shoots his wife and daughter then burns their bodies and house down because he has racked up enormous debts, is this not also an honour killing?

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by Tinpusher

I don't see it that way. He said there is no better or worse in it...BUT if you DO believe that mixed is better. Then THE CASE CAN BE ARGUED that you are racist. I'm using caps to highlight, not shout BTW.



No problems here either. You fall in love with who you fall in love with. But many cultures prevent you acting on it because different = bad. Old crusty dads preventing their daughter marrying the nice white guy they met at college etc (and vice versa).

Here is my statement that he found to suggest that people who do not mix are inferior. Refer back top my statement about the story of the UK Catalans etc. Teh bits he clearly seems to overlook, but refers to lesser human civilisations from outside Europe.

Originally Posted by mulattokid

I am a result of this 'filthy' miscegeny

I love the fact that the future of humanity is being moulded in my country. It is the human races destiny to mix. This cannot be avoided.

However, there are groups that will NOT mix. Indeed to do so,or to give up ones faith for none or another could be on pain of death. This is a potential problem for the future.

An example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Originally Posted by dexter26

It makes me feel like doing all I can so that the best values and opinions prevail, and to weaken and eventually extinguish all the bad, poor and worthless values and opinions.

The best values and opinions are European western values and opinions. A lot of values and opinions from the third and muslim world are among the bad, poor and worthless ones.

Sorry for stating the TRUTH like it is, I just don't believe in political correctness, which to me is the same as lying.

Why would you be defending that? Or did you miss it?

[Tinpusher]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

Nobody 'chooses' to mix! People fall in love.

Show me where I have stated that mixing is a better than not mixing?

It's all in post #73.

This is where Dexter says "If you DO believe..." not "You DO believe." The IF is important.

It reads Like computer programming language to me, an 'If Then Else' list.
IF you do believe. THEN
For that read, if you don't then fine.

Post #73 go check it out.

This is where you both go off on one assuming each other has said something you have not.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

there is no implication or suggestion that there is any superiority in picking to mix. Who chooses who they fall in love with for God sake. Therefore, it is inevitable.

Hummm, I don't know how to put this across in a manner so that you won't see it as some sort of attack. But you say it's "inevitable." However, once upon a time, it certainly wasn't "inevitable." In fact, it was quite the opposite. It was seriously frowned upon and unacceptable.

Now I'm not saying that is GOOD, and racemixing is only BAD. Don't misunderstand me. What I'm trying to point at, is that, now, in 200 or something years, it's suddenly turned completely on it's head, and the mixing is, here in Europe and North America at least, is very close to being seen as DESIRABLE.

What happened? It was pretty much unthinkable 200 years ago, now it's the hippest thing since sliced bread? You tell me, what happened? I'm not dreaming of the past or wishing everything would become like in the past, but I find it weird that not more people stop in their tracks and ask "what happened here?!" when suddenly everything is turned more or less on it's head.

Well, I don't HATE mixing and don't HATE that different people mix up, the issue is that I see something close to PATHOLOGY and something UNHEALTHY in this. Not in that it happens, but more in the psychological/mind factors that are at play concerning this.

It is still hard to wrap one's mind around the fact that I'd say the majority, especially in the cities of the west, now have the complete opposite opinion that they would most likely have if they lived 200 years ago. I'd venture to guess that this isn't just a natural development, and THAT'S part of what irks me. That it is not truly happening naturally, but it is like some sort of agenda that is purposefully carried through and implemented.
I wouldn't have objected if everything went on naturally, and slowly the same way nature operates, it's the ARTIFICIALITY of it that irks me!

[spindrift]

Originally Posted by dexter26

It was pretty much unthinkable 200 years ago, now it's the hippest thing since sliced bread? You tell me, what happened?

You think the mixing of races started 200 years ago?

[DarJoLe]

I have nothing really relevant to add to this debate, but I have found it an interesting couple of weeks seeing the Daily Mail's furore at a couple of teenagers shouting homophobic abuse at someone when they have been spouting homophobic abuse to the masses for decades.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by spindrift

You think the mixing of races started 200 years ago?

I won't answer your question, but I'd like to ask you, what is it that makes you NOT see what it is that I'm trying to point to? Which is that the "pendulum swing" in opinions about immigration from remote lands and later on, mixed relationships, have been so intense/big that, looking at it objectively, I'd say there's little to no chance that intentional manipulation (of people perceptions and opinions etc.) has NOT taken place?

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by dexter26

Hummm, I don't know how to put this across in a manner so that you won't see it as some sort of attack. But you say it's "inevitable." However, once upon a time, it certainly wasn't "inevitable." In fact, it was quite the opposite. It was seriously frowned upon and unacceptable.

Now I'm not saying that is GOOD, and racemixing is only BAD. Don't misunderstand me. What I'm trying to point at, is that, now, in 200 or something years, it's suddenly turned completely on it's head, and the mixing is, here in Europe and North America at least, is very close to being seen as DESIRABLE.

What happened? It was pretty much unthinkable 200 years ago, now it's the hippest thing since sliced bread? You tell me, what happened? I'm not dreaming of the past or wishing everything would become like in the past, but I find it weird that not more people stop in their tracks and ask "what happened here?!" when suddenly everything is turned more or less on it's head.

Well, I don't HATE mixing and don't HATE that different people mix up, the issue is that I see something close to PATHOLOGY and something UNHEALTHY in this. Not in that it happens, but more in the psychological/mind factors that are at play concerning this.

It is still hard to wrap one's mind around the fact that I'd say the majority, especially in the cities of the west, now have the complete opposite opinion that they would most likely have if they lived 200 years ago. I'd venture to guess that this isn't just a natural development, and THAT'S part of what irks me. That it is not truly happening naturally, but it is like some sort of agenda that is purposefully carried through and implemented.
I wouldn't have objected if everything went on naturally, and slowly the same way nature operates, it's the ARTIFICIALITY of it that irks me!

I think you are seeing something that is not there. There is no 'fashion' for people to breed outside of their race (remembering that there is only one human species of course: Homo sapien sapien. There are no sub species of human being in science) People find themselves living together and falling in love (or lust maybe)
"What happened? It was pretty much unthinkable 200 years ago," and "I find it weird that not more people stop in their tracks and ask "what happened here?!" when suddenly everything is turned more or less on it's head." why would this concern people though? Why would they stop and talk about it unless there is a perceived problem? You did make it quite clear that you believe the lower human values mostly come from outside of Europe did you not? Do you see those values as inherent in those distinct peoples and that this will taint the higher European values? If not, then what is the issue I am missing?

"It is still hard to wrap one's mind around the fact that I'd say the majority, especially in the cities of the west, now have the complete opposite opinion that they would most likely have if they lived 200 years ago." Is this not the case with 101 different things with people if they lived 200 years ago? religion, deference, diet, exercise, communities, superstition, witchcraft, practises, funeral rites, etc etc What is the difference between this and that? Why would not having a problem with marrying someone of a different culture or background be an exceptional case? 200 years ago, people only married in their class. Education, health and wealth have removed this inevitability has it not?
"I wouldn't have objected if everything went on naturally, and slowly the same way nature operates, it's the ARTIFICIALITY of it that irks me!" There is nothing artificial that I can see here. As stated, humanity is one species of course. Speciation prevents breeding between 'other' species of course. You refer to nature (dont take this the wrong way - as we are all already blessed with a large genetic allele pool so we are all blessed adequately) nature requires that genetic variation occurs for a species to prosper. The higher the species the greater the allele pool is required. Mixing in the whole pool of genetic variation is accepted in science as a benefit to a species (F1 Hybrids?) Nature tells us when this is wrong - sterility or still birth. It is the same principle that worked to the royal families of Europe's detriment - Hemophilia

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by dexter26

I won't answer your question, but I'd like to ask you, what is it that makes you NOT see what it is that I'm trying to point to? Which is that the "pendulum swing" in opinions about immigration from remote lands and later on, mixed relationships, have been so intense/big that, looking at it objectively, I'd say there's little to no chance that intentional manipulation (of people perceptions and opinions etc.) has NOT taken place?

You are saying that people have been manipulated to interbreed? Am I right?

You have claimed to be frank so be so. I am trying to be open minded to your thoughts despite my experiences of growing up and facing trials that were not of my making.

[dexter26]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

You are saying that people have been manipulated to interbreed? Am I right?

You have claimed to be frank so be so. I am trying to be open minded to your thoughts despite my experiences of growing up and facing trials that were not of my making.

In a certain sense, yes, I am saying that. But that is not the same as saying there is NO mixed relationship *at all* that is based on love and compatibility just like most other (modern) relationships. I'm not saying that doesn't happen of course. But I believe there's grounds to say a certain degree of manipulation in order to "encourage" people (and make it happen), has taken place, yes.

Do you have any solid arguments or reasons that would totally refute this?

I actually happen to know this is the case, and most of it's taken place since the end of World War 2.

[mulattokid]

I rest my case.....veggie dinner coming up. Well deserved don't you think?