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Old September 2nd, 2013, 09:46 PM   #281
ZZ-II
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updated all 4 lists today with the latest infos .

Heung Kong Tower in Shenzhen now topped out. It's Supertall number 4 for Shenzhen!
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Old September 27th, 2013, 10:20 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ-II View Post
updated all 4 lists today with the latest infos .

Heung Kong Tower in Shenzhen now topped out. It's Supertall number 4 for Shenzhen!
I have downloaded PDF,and found a mistake about Shenzhen,赛格广场(SEG Plaza),355.8m。72floors,completed in 1999
http://top.gaoloumi.com/buildinginfo.php?id=456
It's Supertall number 5 for Shenzhen!
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Old September 27th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teresabaixue View Post
I have downloaded PDF,and found a mistake about Shenzhen,赛格广场(SEG Plaza),355.8m。72floors,completed in 1999
http://top.gaoloumi.com/buildinginfo.php?id=456
It's Supertall number 5 for Shenzhen!
that antenna doesn't count.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #284
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correct, 355m is not its official height.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 10:44 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ-II View Post
correct, 355m is not its official height.
355.8m is the total height of the building,the roof height is 291.6m,antenna height is 64.2m
Most buildings with antenna on the list,the antenna height is counted,for example:One world trade center,CITIC plaza,Shun hing square,Bank of China, Bank of America,Times tower ······
Few buildings with antenna on the list,the antenna height is not counted,for example:Willis Tower,Empire State Building
Is it the double standard?I am confused
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Old September 28th, 2013, 01:31 PM   #286
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It is rather arbitrary. Some are clear, while others aren't.
ESB antenna were added later, and they are functionally antenna, they really shouldn't be counted. Similar story with First Canadian Place.
The spires on top of the Petronas Towers are part of the design, so they should count. Same with Trump Chicago and Bank of America NY
In the case of the SEG Plaza, were the spires/antenna part of the original design, or were they added later?
The other argument is how much a spire changes the design. Personally, I thing Willis/Sears would look weird without the antenna, while Trump Chicago would look fine without the stick on top. In the case of the SEG Plaza, removing the spires/antenna would change the way it looks, kind of like the CITIC Plaza in Guangzhou. Both buildings would look fine without the spires, but they wouldn't really be the same.
Personally, I think that SEG Plaza should include the spires in the height, so it should count as a supertall.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #287
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It's not always easy with the antennas, i just use the official numbers. All other would be quite chaotic.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattTheTubaGuy View Post
It is rather arbitrary. Some are clear, while others aren't.
ESB antenna were added later, and they are functionally antenna, they really shouldn't be counted. Similar story with First Canadian Place.
The spires on top of the Petronas Towers are part of the design, so they should count. Same with Trump Chicago and Bank of America NY
In the case of the SEG Plaza, were the spires/antenna part of the original design, or were they added later?
The other argument is how much a spire changes the design. Personally, I thing Willis/Sears would look weird without the antenna, while Trump Chicago would look fine without the stick on top. In the case of the SEG Plaza, removing the spires/antenna would change the way it looks, kind of like the CITIC Plaza in Guangzhou. Both buildings would look fine without the spires, but they wouldn't really be the same.
Personally, I think that SEG Plaza should include the spires in the height, so it should count as a supertall.
The antenna of SEG Plaza is not added later,the antenna was added before completed

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Originally Posted by ZZ-II View Post
It's not always easy with the antennas, i just use the official numbers. All other would be quite chaotic.
where does the official numbers come from?
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Old September 28th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #289
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he is using CTBUH standard measurement, you can disagree with them, but that's how it is. you can read how they decide what counts on their website

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctbuh
1. Height to Architectural Top
Height is measured from the level of the lowest, significant, open-air, pedestrian entrance to the architectural top of the building, including spires, but not including antennae, signage, flag poles or other functional-technical equipment. This measurement is the most widely utilized and is employed to define the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat rankings of the "World's Tallest Buildings."
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Old September 28th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teresabaixue View Post
The antenna of SEG Plaza is not added later,the antenna was added before completed
Ok, the question is now 'why did CTBUH decide to exclude the spires from the official height?'
They aren't obviously antenna, and they definitely seem to be part of the design, so by CTBUH's own criteria, it should count.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 09:53 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerZavatar View Post
he is using CTBUH standard measurement, you can disagree with them, but that's how it is. you can read how they decide what counts on their website
Thank you for the information,but I am also confused
What is the difference between antenna and spire?
Why some one are antenna,others are spire?Many buildings have long thin antenna,but using CTBUH standard measurement they are spires
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Old September 28th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #292
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when CTBUH came up with the kind of measurement it went thru the already built buildings and decided for a lot of buildings what it should be considered. the measurement would actually be a not too bad indicator of building height, because since buildings might change height by added a new antenna over the years, the spire height will stay constant. the problem that arose though is that after it was clear you can get the tallest building by just building spires, architects tried to "cheat" their way up by using tall spires. for example the petronas towers became the worlds tallest buildings although the former sears towers antennas were much larger. CTBUH also featured an interesting article about this so called vanity height, that tells you how much space on top of a building cannot actually be used and is just for decoration. Another crucial example is 1WTC that featured a spire, but the incasing of the spire was removed, so now it is unclear if the CTBUH will declare it having an antenna or spire.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #293
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What if a spire gets added later? (i.e. something purely decorative) should that add to the official height? Example: Tour First
On the other hand, what about an antenna that is built as part of the building, and removing it would change the appearance significantly? When is an antenna a spire? Example: 1WTC. It will be interesting to see whether the CTBUH decides that it has a spire or an antenna.
I haven't decided what the best way is yet, but whatever it is, Sears/Willis tower will be taller than the Petronas twins. It is ridiculous that they were ever considered the tallest, anyone who looks at a diagram comparing the buildings will see that Sears/Willis is clearly taller!
Another example is Trump Chicago vs 2IFC. I read somewhere that Trump Chicago was originally going to have an antenna, but they decided to make it a spire when they realised that it wouldn't be counted in the official height, even though it probably would have looked almost exactly the same!
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:41 AM   #294
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i doubt there is even a best way, whatever way you go with it, it will either be far to complicated (Kanto standard) or will be unfair towards other buildings (current CTBUH standard). in the end every system is subjectively just thinking for yourself which is the problem you mind the least that you will end up respecting as the most significant system for yourself. a lot of people do like to compare roof heights, a lot of people like to compare the CTBUH "official" heights and again others like to compare the height to tip heights, in the end it all comes down to preferences. i for one do not really mind any system, if diagrams are featured people can make an opinion for themselves then, if a building with a large spire is considered the tallest in the city it also should be compared in diagrams so that the statement doesn't wash away some facts that may not be that obvious just hearing numbers.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 06:20 AM   #295
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I used to be an editor at emporis and visited SEG Plaza back in early 2001. The 355.8m height came originally from me. I asked the building management if the spire is used for anything and they replied "No, it's "decoration" only", I clearly remember that.

However, later the architects were contacted by another emporis editor and appearently they referred to it as an "antenna", probably without realizing the difference it makes. From then on the spire wasn't counted anymore, even though I protested on the internal messaging board. CTBUH at that time didn't even have a proper website with building heights, a lot of their numbers came originally from emporis so they just went with it....

Last edited by ShangHigh; October 7th, 2013 at 06:21 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old October 7th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #296
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OK, I will definitely include the SEG plaza, and I may consider using height to tip for everything in my map. For buildings like the ESB and Sears/Willis that have had antennas added/heightened, I will put the height increase in the appropriate year.

I am near the end of the uni year now, so it won't be long before I continue with the maps. My last exam is October 30th, so I will definitely make progress with the maps in November.
I might also make some kind of progress map with all 400m+ buildings (think CULWULLA diagrams, except maybe in 3D)
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Old October 7th, 2013, 09:40 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamejava View Post
1. We should make twin towers each their own entry, eg Lamars Tower 1 and Lamars Tower 2 instead of both in one row
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattTheTubaGuy View Post
OK, I will definitely include the SEG plaza, and I may consider using height to tip for everything in my map. For buildings like the ESB and Sears/Willis that have had antennas added/heightened, I will put the height increase in the appropriate year.
Oh no. Plz don't include antennas. Spires are okay but antennas..
This is cheating. Anyone can install a small antenna at the roof and claim it to be taller than the others.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamejava View Post
1. We should make twin towers each their own entry, eg Lamars Tower 1 and Lamars Tower 2 instead of both in one row
Pretty sure I have done that in my map
Quote:
2. How about we add either the year it is supposed to be finished or the status it is in like preparations, piling, rising, topped out or something
That is basically what will be in my map. They will even be in different layers, so it is possible to only show complete or T/O towers. I may add the expected year of completion eventually, but for the moment I will focus on the stuff I can know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Pals_RGB View Post
Oh no. Plz don't include antennas. Spires are okay but antennas..
This is cheating. Anyone can install a small antenna at the roof and claim it to be taller than the others.
Anyone can add a small spire and claim it to be taller than the others (that is precisely what the Petronas Towers did)
Antenna are still part of the building, so they should be counted in the height. Also, if you actually look at the diagrams, there are very few supertalls with antenna, and for the ones that do, the antenna aren't any bigger than the 'spires' on other buildings.
There are six towers that aren't 'officially' supertalls, but would be if antenna are included, and three of them are within 10m of supertall status any way (they beat twenty 'proper' supertalls by roof height!). They are SEG Plaza (which should have always been labelled a supertall anyway), First Canadian Place, which has a roof only two metres below 300m, and Eureka Tower, which lost to Q1's stick.
There are 15 supertalls that are only 'officially' supertalls because of a stick on top!
There are 10 supertalls with antenna, with six gaining supertall status with them, so including antenna would change less than excluding spires.
Towers with antenna:
Willis/Sears Tower : 442m official,#9 , 527m with antenna, #3
Empire State Building : 381m official, #20, 443m with antenna, #11
John Hancock Centre : 344m official, #33 , 457m with antenna, #7
Baiyoke Tower II : 304m official, #67 , 328m with antenna, #45
First Canadian Place : 298 official, #78, 355m with antenna, #30
Eureka tower : 297m official, #80 , 301m with antenna, #78
SEG Plaza : 292m official, #88, 356m with antenna, #29
Commerzbank Tower : 259m official , #189 ,300m with antenna, #73
4 times square : 247m official, #248 , 341m with antenna, #37
One Shell Plaza : 218m official, #517 , 305m with antenna, #72

OK, the last three are presumably why antenna were excluded, but even the last one has a higher roof than the Burj al Arab! (also, like the SEG Plaza, the antenna/spire was built with the rest of the building, not added later)
I think I will go with two maps, one with some kind of roof height that includes only the actual usable floor space, or maybe just based on the floor count, and then an 'everything' map which will include observation towers.
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Last edited by MattTheTubaGuy; October 7th, 2013 at 11:09 AM. Reason: added list and revised some numbers
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Old October 7th, 2013, 11:18 AM   #299
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i prefer the official heights, but using the height to tip seems fair to me. at least my home country is getting a supertall this way as well :P

if you include observation towers i would suggest you make a new folder for these observation towers so it will be easy to turn them off and on by just clicking that check in google maps.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 12:15 PM   #300
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[IMG]http://i43.************/2ng9cur.jpg[/IMG] <-> [IMG]http://i39.************/bi8e8x.jpg[/IMG]
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