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Old February 4th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #21
MattiG
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Quote:
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Are there also saami/sapmi roadsigns in Finland ?
Yes there are, in the areas where there is a significant sami speaking population: In the municipalities Enontekiö, Utsjoki and Inari as well as in the municipality of Sodankylä north of Vuotso.

There are several sami dialects spoken, and the written format of the places vary.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 12:04 PM   #22
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The city of Aachen is located close to both NL and B, but still I don't remember hearing any dutch language there, there were quite a few french speaking people sitting the open air cafés at cathedral though.

Conclusion: Language barrier exists between Germany & The Netherlands
I wouldn't be too sure about that. There's a difference between the official national languages, and regional dialects. For instance the dialect in Dutch borderregions like Twente, the Achterhoek and Eastern Limburg is very alike the platt being spoken across te border. For locals the languagebarrier is being broken by speaking dialect. The Heerlen-Kerkrade-region in Eastern Limburg has the same Rhinelandic dialect as the Aachen-Cologne area, which differs a lot from the local dialects elsewhere in Limburg.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #23
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For example, many Dutch live in Germany just across the border to take advantage of the lower housing prices and less regulation.
Of course, there isn't really a language border between Germany and Nederland. Sure, one side uses High German and the Dutch side uses a codified dialect but when you look at the actual dialect people speak near the German Dutch border, there's no language barrier there.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #24
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Dialects are only spoken in rural areas in the Netherlands, chiefly among senior citizens. Many Dutch who moved into the German border area are from the larger cities (seeking affordable housing), where very few people speak a dialect. So I do believe there is a significant language barrier.

Dialects have a declining influence in the Netherlands. Often only older people speak it in everyday life, most people from eastern Netherlands (such as Twente) only have an accent, but an accent is not a dialect. My entire family is from eastern Netherlands, but except for my surviving grandparents, none of them speak dialect in everyday life.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #25
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Dialects are only spoken in rural areas in the Netherlands, chiefly among senior citizens. Many Dutch who moved into the German border area are from the larger cities (seeking affordable housing), where very few people speak a dialect. So I do believe there is a significant language barrier.

Dialects have a declining influence in the Netherlands. Often only older people speak it in everyday life, most people from eastern Netherlands (such as Twente) only have an accent, but an accent is not a dialect. My entire family is from eastern Netherlands, but except for my surviving grandparents, none of them speak dialect in everyday life.
Isn't the local language very important in Friesland?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #26
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Yes, but that's not considered a dialect, but a language (although there is some disagreement) and it's not near the border with Germany
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Old February 4th, 2013, 03:04 PM   #27
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Yes, but that's not considered a dialect, but a language (although there is some disagreement) and it's not near the border with Germany
Many local languages, like Sardinian, Friulan or Ladin in Italy, are officially recognized as such even if they aren't used by local as primary language anymore. The difference between language and dialect is controversial. The official recognization is mostly to get privileges such bilingual signs.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #28
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Many local languages, like Sardinian, Friulan or Ladin in Italy, are officially recognized as such even if they aren't used by local as primary language anymore. The difference between language and dialect is controversial. The official recognization is mostly to get privileges such bilingual signs.
Linguists have recognized the languages you mention - and Frisian - as languages since long before there was such a thing as bilingual signs. Frisian is actually considered to be closer to English than it is to Dutch.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #29
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Dialects are only spoken in rural areas in the Netherlands, chiefly among senior citizens.
I have a friend who's born in Wesel and he tells me the dialect there basically is Dutch. He had to learn "high German" in school.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #30
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Here in the Zillertal they have a very strong dialect, and surprisingly some people are unable to speak Hochdeutsch. In Innsbruck they generally do speak Hochdeutsch with an accent.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:04 PM   #31
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I have a friend who's born in Wesel and he tells me the dialect there basically is Dutch. He had to learn "high German" in school.
Yes, they speak Plattdeutsch in some areas. In addition, German schools in the border region offer Dutch classes.

The new Dutch migrants in the border region are often critized for not integrating in German society. They send their children to Dutch schools, work in the Netherlands, don't socialize with German neighbors, etcetera. Their only reason is that you can buy a much bigger house or design a whole new one much easier and cheaper than the Netherlands. This is in part also due to the poor economic performance of some German border regions, especially the Emsland region which is somewhat of a backwater by German perception.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #32
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That would be a good scenario for these border cities indeed: they build homes, buy regular stuff and pay some taxes in Germany but don't use all their social services.

I keep wondering if Liège somehow revamped is bad reputation and cleared up some neighborhoods, if ti would become a bilingual city with a huge influx of people from Limburg there. Housing is way cheaper in Liège (though today most of cheap housing there is bad looking)
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, they speak Plattdeutsch in some areas. In addition, German schools in the border region offer Dutch classes.

The new Dutch migrants in the border region are often critized for not integrating in German society. They send their children to Dutch schools, work in the Netherlands, don't socialize with German neighbors, etcetera. Their only reason is that you can buy a much bigger house or design a whole new one much easier and cheaper than the Netherlands. This is in part also due to the poor economic performance of some German border regions, especially the Emsland region which is somewhat of a backwater by German perception.
I'm surprised they're allowed to send their children to schools across the border.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:32 PM   #34
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I keep wondering if Liège somehow revamped is bad reputation and cleared up some neighborhoods, if ti would become a bilingual city with a huge influx of people from Limburg there. Housing is way cheaper in Liège (though today most of cheap housing there is bad looking)
There is sufficient affordable housing in South Limburg due to population decline in that area. People wanting to get a premiere location usually relocate to the Voeren Strip immediately south of the border. Liège has a poor image and outdated housing stock.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 06:45 PM   #35
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There is sufficient affordable housing in South Limburg due to population decline in that area. People wanting to get a premiere location usually relocate to the Voeren Strip immediately south of the border. Liège has a poor image and outdated housing stock.
But there are mountains nearby

(ok, hills)
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Old February 4th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #36
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I'm surprised they're allowed to send their children to schools across the border.
Off course you can, it's EU. Alternatively they can open a Dutch school in Germany near the border, like the Slovenian school that exist in Trieste.

BTW, what's wrong with Liege? Is it known as a dangerous city?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #37
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BTW, what's wrong with Liege? Is it known as a dangerous city?
It has a dangerous rundown area (Bressoux) and it is the commieblock capital of the Benelux

Take a look: http://goo.gl/maps/95AD7
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Old February 4th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #38
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For locals the languagebarrier is being broken by speaking dialect. The Heerlen-Kerkrade-region in Eastern Limburg has the same Rhinelandic dialect as the Aachen-Cologne area, which differs a lot from the local dialects elsewhere in Limburg.
When visiting Limburg and Epen in 2009 I spoke german all the time. Most people at the camping had no trouble to understand and speak it. Also at the local grocery the vendor was allright with german.

But when I approached an icecream vendor (young girl) at the square in Maastricht addressing her in german, she gave me a look like I was an evil nazi.

Same thing at Maastricht railway station, asking for a train scedule in german was not popular. They don't like german speaking people in that city.

Same thing in Poland, don't try to speak german or russian in Poland. Allthough they may understand those languages.

I think it has to do with WW2
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Old February 5th, 2013, 12:05 AM   #39
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Eupen is German-speaking....
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Old February 5th, 2013, 12:49 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It has a dangerous rundown area (Bressoux) and it is the commieblock capital of the Benelux

Take a look: http://goo.gl/maps/95AD7
Liège is less dangerous than Brussels. Also it's not the commieblock capital of the Benelux because it has a few commieblocks along the highway you enter from the Dutch border. Moest houses in Liège city proper are 19th century industrial revolution terraced homes. Ofthen those homes are in dire need of modernisation and restauration. Then there is lots of 70ties modernism wich replaced a lot of terraced homes along the river. That wouldn't be so bad if the buildings would have been well looked afther, but money is the problem, wich indeed makes the housing stock of liège bad.

Many streets outside the historical city center of Liège are very unattractive mainly because they are grey, have little greenery and bad pavement. Just a change of that would make some dull and grey looking neighborhoods actually innercity jewels. Liège is a big city with little money and a mainly former working class population. Some parts are a bit rough because of that.

But commieblock capital? Any given Dutch city of the same size has more commieblocks and 'gallerijflats' than the whole region of Liège together .

Here are some tipical views of Liège in the urban innercity. I explicit did not chose the best streets to show. These are average streets like most streets in Liège actually are build up. There are many beautiful streets full of beautifully restored 19th century homes, but most offcourse, are not. Nor did I chose any main shopping streets in the center wich offcourse are in a good state.

inside the historical city:
http://goo.gl/maps/bqCCi
http://goo.gl/maps/MZI8o
http://goo.gl/maps/798GL

outside the historical city:
http://goo.gl/maps/yjQFv
http://goo.gl/maps/SSvYj (Bressoux, dangerous according to you....It is rundown though)
http://goo.gl/maps/1RN5V

50-70ties urbanism most people asociate Liège with but actually only lines major roads long the water while behind those flats quiet resedential streets of 18th and 19th century teracced homes make out the majority of the housing stock.
http://goo.gl/maps/w04wH
http://goo.gl/maps/6EmeY
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Last edited by joshsam; February 5th, 2013 at 01:13 AM.
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