daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 18th, 2013, 02:40 AM   #21
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
You should use the lane to your direction as soon as your destination is signed, in case there is a jam in your direction you wont become an obstacle for people traveling to other directions.
No you should use the available space, that means if you have 1km to weave don't do it at the start, make use of all the available space.
In my example of the A16, you have a jam on the right lane coming from the east, on the left lane coming from the west, with the outside lanes driving significantly faster.
You have near standstill traffic just before joining, and the jam ends literally 200 meters after you can start weaving... The next 1300 meters of weaving area is jam free, how does anyone who keeps to the non jammed lane at first, but joins in later where there is no more jam cause a jam ? Nobody has to brake for him...

Why do you think we have signs ''Gebruik gehele invoegstrook!'' (''use entire lane'' roughly translated) in many places, because of people who like to be an idiot and join in at the start like in the video's at the bottom ( eg. ''I have to go right so I'll join the jam on the right lane instead of joining later when traffic is moving better''), instead of using all the the available space...

Quote:
Not at full capacity. In the case that traffic is at full capacity of a motorway, steady speed at 80 - 100 km/h results in the best throughput and minimal jams.
Nope, not always, the moment they eliminated the 80 km zone eastbound on the A12 near the Hague, the traffic jams decreased...

Lower speed does not always equal less driving distance in reality, it should but it doesn't...

It is situation and location dependant, if everyone would keep minimum distance then indeed, around 70 km/h it'd have a maximum capacity, but in reality, people drive on each others bumpers at higher speeds.

What happens in the 80 km/h zones, people are afraid to use their throttle to temporarily go faster than 80 to make space or make use of the available space for joining, in fear of a fine, so they will instead brake, which causes a brake wave...
Quote:
No they slow down everyone, because the need to squeeze into a lane that is already full. The one behind will need to slow down.
Only if the exit is jammed, eg. not a weaving problem but a capacity problem... This does not apply in my example where the A16 starts, just as much lanes go in as out of the weaving area...

Usually you have people like this ( the people in the jam) and people like in the video who get in at a later moment and do not slow anyone down as traffic is already moving!


Or joining:



The people who join at the earliest moment possible are the ones causing the jam, not the guy who makes speed and joins in later with nobody having to brake for him.
__________________

keokiracer liked this post

Last edited by snowdog; February 18th, 2013 at 02:57 AM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 18th, 2013, 04:21 AM   #22
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,086
Likes (Received): 4749

Another typical solution to weaving.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 11:53 AM   #23
Tom 958
Registered User
 
Tom 958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: near Atlanta
Posts: 786
Likes (Received): 163

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
No you should use the available space, that means if you have 1km to weave don't do it at the start, make use of all the available space.
Here in Charleston, SC, there's a sign on the ramp turning right from Coming Street to I-26/US 17 that reads, "Keep moving-- change lanes later." Here it is on Streetview. The ramp gets its own added lane, but it's dropped at the next exit, and the rightmost of the three other lanes drops at the exit after that, so in order for motorists to access I-26 from Coming Street, they must change lanes left twice in about half a mile while negotiating a low-speed curve, which is harder than it sounds.
Tom 958 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #24
Ron2K
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,048
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Even I have heard of the infamousness of the first junction. Has the bridge helped?
Yeah, it's a lot better now. Though a side effect is rather ridiculous road signs!



(Basically, if you're coming up on the M3 past UCT and you want to head out to the airport, get ready to do a few handbrake turns!)
Ron2K no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 06:24 PM   #25
Exethalion
Remember Me
 
Exethalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 845
Likes (Received): 645

I-95/I-695 in Baltimore used to have a novel solution that I always liked. No weaving, no loops, and not as expensive as a 4-level stack. However Americans seem to have an allergy against carriageways on the wrong side, so it was replaced with a full stack, at great expense (the map overlay shows this).


mitchpaschen.com

With some extra funding you could probably route one or both of the mainlines right over the interchange and still have only 3 levels of bridges, rather than 4 or more.
Exethalion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #26
TopWatch
Roloncho!
 
TopWatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bogotá D.C.
Posts: 4,659
Likes (Received): 3130

In Bogotá ~ Colombia:

Maybe the Avenue NQS x 92 Street, because the BRT (Transmilenio) has their own lane, and in the low part of the avenue, are a rail cross-road, also has a tunnel:



Saludos!!
TopWatch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 08:49 PM   #27
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
No you should use the available space, that means if you have 1km to weave don't do it at the start, make use of all the available space.
In my example of the A16, you have a jam on the right lane coming from the east, on the left lane coming from the west, with the outside lanes driving significantly faster.
That's a join not a split. At joins, wait till the end, or until you find a free spot. I speak about splits
Quote:
You have near standstill traffic just before joining, and the jam ends literally 200 meters after you can start weaving... The next 1300 meters of weaving area is jam free, how does anyone who keeps to the non jammed lane at first, but joins in later where there is no more jam cause a jam ? Nobody has to brake for him...
Again I speak about splits not joins.
Quote:
Why do you think we have signs ''Gebruik gehele invoegstrook!'' (''use entire lane'' roughly translated) in many places, because of people who like to be an idiot and join in at the start like in the video's at the bottom ( eg. ''I have to go right so I'll join the jam on the right lane instead of joining later when traffic is moving better''), instead of using all the the available space...
Splits! Not joins!
Quote:
Nope, not always, the moment they eliminated the 80 km zone eastbound on the A12 near the Hague, the traffic jams decreased...

Lower speed does not always equal less driving distance in reality, it should but it doesn't...

It is situation and location dependant, if everyone would keep minimum distance then indeed, around 70 km/h it'd have a maximum capacity, but in reality, people drive on each others bumpers at higher speeds.

What happens in the 80 km/h zones, people are afraid to use their throttle to temporarily go faster than 80 to make space or make use of the available space for joining, in fear of a fine, so they will instead brake, which causes a brake wave...
A limit of 80 km/h is not good, I agree, the limit should be 100 km/h so the cars can adjust their position to find space between 80 and 100, as I said.
Quote:
Only if the exit is jammed, eg. not a weaving problem but a capacity problem... This does not apply in my example where the A16 starts, just as much lanes go in as out of the weaving area...

Usually you have people like this ( the people in the jam) and people like in the video who get in at a later moment and do not slow anyone down as traffic is already moving!

The people who join at the earliest moment possible are the ones causing the jam, not the guy who makes speed and joins in later with nobody having to brake for him.
These are - again - pritty much all examples of joining problems. Not splitting.

Edit: BTW I agree with you on joining lanes, but that's not what I spoke about in my original post.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com

Last edited by earthJoker; February 18th, 2013 at 09:08 PM.
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 06:50 AM   #28
snowdog
Speed freak
 
snowdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Capelle ad ijssel
Posts: 969
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
That's a join not a split. At joins, wait till the end, or until you find a free spot. I speak about splits


Again I speak about splits not joins.

Splits! Not joins!
Join+ Split you mean, the reason there is a jam at the join is because of the split 1.5 km later, people fear not making it and switch lanes in the first 200m while they have 1500 meters... The weaving happens in a way to small space when there is enough to do it later.

You have a join here, which is jammed:
https://maps.google.nl/?ll=51.94524,...354.11,,0,5.15
Because of the split here:
https://maps.google.nl/?ll=51.933533...159.92,,0,0.12
Because people who need the local lanes go right way too early, and people who need the express lanes go left way too early...


I always come from the east, I often need the local lanes, but I stay on the absolute left and switch (three) lanes at the last 500 meters or so, and save myself 2-3 minutes every time by passing all those sheep who for no reason stick to the right way to early. Unless the bridge later on is open, there's often no capacity problem at all on the A16 at the Split between local and express lanes, at least in that place, the problem on the A20>A16 is caused because people try switch lanes in the first 200 meters for the exit 1.3km further!

Last edited by snowdog; February 19th, 2013 at 07:00 AM.
snowdog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 08:23 AM   #29
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
Join+ Split you mean, the reason there is a jam at the join is because of the split 1.5 km later, people fear not making it and switch lanes in the first 200m while they have 1500 meters... The weaving happens in a way to small space when there is enough to do it later.
No no and no again! There are no Join + Split situations, because we have those bridges this whole thread is about. I don't really like it that you always use examples that don't have anything to do with the topic.

See my original post, it was about the situation at Zurich Ost. This is the situation I speak about:
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=He...305.24,,0,0.29

No need for weaving here, you can already choose the right lane here.
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=He...261.93,,0,0.88

If you chose the right lane here, there will be no disturbance, weaving, joining late. Just follow your sign and you will be fine.
Unfortunately some idiots (the word is appropriate) go on on the lane direction Zürich-City here, and then have to wave over the whole Autobahn to the right later. There is no reason to do this other than thinking you might be able to overtake one or two cars.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com

Last edited by earthJoker; February 19th, 2013 at 05:56 PM.
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #30
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Another typical solution to weaving.
I don't see it, looks like a normal cloverleaf.

At the Frankfurter Kreuz there is an interesting twist to it against weaving:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.05...16512&t=h&z=17
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com

Last edited by earthJoker; February 19th, 2013 at 05:56 PM.
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 11:01 AM   #31
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,791
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
I don't see it, looks like a normal cloverleaf.
The lower road has collector ramps where the weaving takes place. The solution does not reduce weaving itself but it moves the weaving away from the thru lanes.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #32
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,791
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
At the Frankfurter Kreuz there is an interesting twist to it against waving:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.05...16512&t=h&z=17
Seems to me a solution combining high cost due to the extra brigdes, and low throughput due to the tight loop ramps. Kind of an emergency solution to extend the lifecycle of ancient cloverleaf to survive next 10-20 years until a complete reconstruction is needed.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #33
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The lower road has collector ramps where the weaving takes place. The solution does not reduce weaving itself but it moves the weaving away from the thru lanes.
Pritty much every German cloverleaf has those parallel collector lanes. It's needed because of the unlimited speed on many through lanes.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #34
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,791
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Pritty much every German cloverleaf has those parallel collector lanes. It's needed because of the unlimited speed on many through lanes.
Of course. That is why the arrangement was called a typical one, I believe.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #35
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

I got the "typical" part, I just don't see it as a solution to weaving. It just put's the weaving part to a separate area. Like a Ghetto for weaving
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com

Last edited by earthJoker; February 19th, 2013 at 05:56 PM.
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #36
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,086
Likes (Received): 4749

Let's call it a half-solution then, because many cloverleaves don't have it. @earthJoker: it's "weaving".
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #37
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Let's call it a half-solution then, because many cloverleaves don't have it. @earthJoker: it's "weaving".
Oops, corrected.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium