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Old March 12th, 2013, 05:40 AM   #81
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Old March 12th, 2013, 05:46 AM   #82
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Looking at some of these pics, I can easily see how Warsaw was "Paris of the East". It would be nice to reconstruct the Iron Gate. It looked great. Why was it demolished?
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Old March 12th, 2013, 05:52 AM   #83
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Old March 12th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #84
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Old March 12th, 2013, 01:51 PM   #85
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Ulica Krolewska - Krolewska street

Krolewska street was created during the key development period of Warsaw´s old town district, in the XVI - XVII century. From the very beginning Krolewska street connected the Royal way with the Grzybowa district.

In 1725 the street was regulated in connection with the new Saxon Axis, which was the main reason why the street received its current name Krolewska-Royal. In the eighteenth century, at the corner of Marszałkowska street and opened in 1784 lay the Operalnia, Poland's first professional theater. In 1816, in the back streets of the Krolewska and Marszałkowska street a market moved from Pociejów (later in this spot Herseg´s tenement house was built) was established. In 1820, the area was planted with trees and was quickly renamed plac Zieloni, the Green Square (Later Dabrowskiego).

Krakowskie przedmiescie - Plac Pilsudskiego stretch

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/k...rolewska_a.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/k.../krolewska.jpg

Plac Pilsudskiego - Plac Malachowskiego stretch

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...86324849_o.jpg

Kronenberg palace

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...zielony_08.jpg

Interior

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/m...erg_klatka.jpg

It could have easily been rebuilt after the war.

http://www.cotubylo.pl/wp-content/up...2012/09/02.jpg

Evangelic church

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...97276482_n.jpg

Zacheta, National gallery

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/23/23091.jpg

Pl. Malachowskiego - Marszalkowska

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/14/14443.jpg

Lessel tenement house

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...66074362_n.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/53/53061.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/94/94000.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/k...olewska_09.jpg

Warsaw stock exchange

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/218/218698.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/k...wska_14_01.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa/lista/pzb_3.jpg

Next post: Ulica Marszałkowska - Marszałkowska street (Part 1)
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Old March 12th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #86
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Bonus: Map of the Saxon axis and the seven squares surrounding it


https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...59652401_n.jpg
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Old March 12th, 2013, 10:58 PM   #87
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Warsaw was really beautiful, sad that just left small part.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 11:14 PM   #88
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Old March 14th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #89
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Warsaw was really beautiful, sad that just left small part.
Interestingly, in 1930s it was commonly perceived as ugly, too dense and chaotic. Even the President of Warsaw, Stefan Starzynski (among many other works) wrote a brochure explaining why it is not true that Warsaw is ugly (which is the best proof that it was exactly how was it perceived)

And if anything was praised in Warsaw, there were modern interbellum districts, based on Ebezener Howard concept of garden-city and Polish "national mansion" style (Ochota Kolonia Staszica, Zoliborz, Saska Kepa, Mokotow, Sadyba, Bielany, Goclawek) - these were achievements of 1920s. Plus governmental buildings. Plus modern international style buildings created as the result of lex Wedel. But you can see hardly any of them in this thread.

Funny, how human taste changes over the decades
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Old March 14th, 2013, 07:07 PM   #90
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Warsaw Old Town was neglected, and so many other districts. It was pretty common in Russian annexed territory.
Other thing is that for example in Prussia buildings were developed a little bit like today's developers sites and there were numbers of regulations related to street level planning that were obeyed
Lack of those regulations lead as you have written straight to chaotic development.

If you want to know how most parts of XIX century Warsaw looked like, you can check out Łódź - the same story, but even faster and even more chaotic (from what I remember Łódź was 3-rd fastest growing city in XIX century in the World!).
Now it looks pretty nice and picturesque (If It's in a good state) but back then the reception might have been different.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #91
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very good point dexter2, Lodz will give everyone a very good idea of what Warsaw would have looked like outside the old town(which Lodz doesn't have). The scale of Lodz is also quite similar for development during that period.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #92
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Actually Łódź does have an old town (Łódź dates back to beginning of XV century), but back then it was small town with only wooden buildings.
In XIX century they were demolished and some of them replaced. So our old town was actually totally new
During German occupation Getto Łódzkie was located there and when germans were escaping they demolished most of it.



Now: https://maps.google.pl/maps?q=lodz,+...,8.14,,0,-1.47

But this topics not about Łódź, sorry for that
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Old March 15th, 2013, 02:52 AM   #93
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Ulica Marszalkowska - Marshall street (Part 1)

The establishment of the street is associated with the Grand Marshal of the Crown Francis Belinsky, the owner of a nearby jurisdiction offices Bielino, who was the initiator of demarcation of street, extended over time from Krolewska street to Bagatela street.

In 1770 the name Marszalkowska was deemed official for the street and originally consisted of mansions surrounded by fields and gardens, but in the next decades increasing numbers of larger tenement houses were built - the main factor that made this street the most congested in Warsaw and which intensified the development of the street, was the Vienna station, opened on the corner of Jerozolimskie avenue in 1845.

In 1870 the street was cobblestoned, it was also becoming more and the old tenement houses were slowly replaced by richly decorated office tenement, making Marszalkowska one of the most representative of Warsaw thoroughfare, full of shops, offices, restaurants and hotels.

In the interwar period, the street was one of the busiest streets of the city, before the outbreak of the second world war president Starzynski and the city concil of Warsaw were planning to extend the street in the north to Bankowy square, this was completed before the outbreak of the Warsaw uprising. Almost all the buildings in the street survived the 1939 bombing but ware deliberately obliterated after the fall of the Warsaw uprising. Nevertheless some buildings and houses in the south part of the street survived the death of the city. In the rest of the street, trade began to revive, creating the so-called. "One storied Marszałkowska".

In the years after 1945 the street was significantly widened and the remnants of the pre-war structures were completely removed due to ideological communist decisions (in order to make it possible to organize tank parades in the street next to the Palace of science and culture)

Beginning from the north (Krolewska street) and heading southwards (Jerozolimskie street)

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_01.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_02.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_03.jpg

Dabrowski square

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...17563681_o.jpg


http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2601/52166762.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_04.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_05.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_06.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_07.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_08.jpg


http://srv.fotopages.com/2/9293948.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/9/9539.jpg

"Russia insurance house"

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_10.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/228/228936.jpg

Moniuszko street

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_11.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/old/jasna.jpg

Sienna street

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...armonia_09.jpg

Gebethner and Wolff house

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/195/195266.jpg

Back to Marszalkowska, "Russia" insurance house


https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...70042685_n.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/267/267765.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/132/132317.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_13.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/23/23104.jpg


http://www.newsweek.pl/bins/Media/Pi...929fea8b66.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_14.jpg

Looking into Zlota street



This is where the Palace of culture and science stands today

http://www.bejka.com/salon/barykada/stara_zlota.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/z...d/zlota_01.jpg

Back to Marszalkowska


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_17.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_20.jpg

"Drink Zywiec beer" neon sign at the top of Marszalkowska 100

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/neony/021_zywiec.jpg

Marszalkowska as seen from the Jerozolimskie avenue

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_21.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/115/115039.jpg

Vienna station

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/21/21153.jpg

Next post: Warszawa glowna station
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Old March 15th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #94
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Pre-war Warsaw "Vienna station" looks pretty small and provincial. I like very much that new one not finished before the war. What's a pity it destroyed, it would fit new, modern Warsaw really good.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #95
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The new Warszawa Główna station

The first idea of construction of a main Warsaw station, which would have been the nexus of all rail lines in the city, appeared in 1879. In practical terms, with one standard gauge line and a few broad gauge railway lines terminating in Warsaw in the 19th century, creating a single 'main' station would have been far from a trivial proposition. However, when Poland regained independence and the standard gauge was universally adopted, this project was revived. In 1921, when works on the modernisation of the Warsaw railway hub started, it became clear that it was necessary to demolish the obsolete Vienna Station. This having been done, passenger traffic was taken over by a temporary station on Chmielna street, which opened in 1921.

It was decided that after the demolition of the Vienna Station, a new station would be constructed. The works began in 1932. The monumental complex of the Warsaw Main Station was designed by architects Czeslaw Przybylski and Andrzej Pszenicki. Wacław Żenczykowski was the structural engineer. This was supposed to become the most important railway station of the Second Polish Republic and one of the most modern in contemporary Europe.
The station building was located along the Warsaw’s main street, Aleje Jerozolimskie, between Marszałkowska and Emilii Plater streets (52°14′35″N 20°59′59″E), and the platforms were in a tunnel on the cross-city line (Polish: linia średnicowa).

The station was designed in the Modernist Style, with then popular Art deco elements. The architects intended for the station to be multi-functional; therefore plenty of space had been designed for various stores, entertainment, and restaurants. As construction continued in 1938, the first passengers were able to use the partly completed Warsaw Main Rail Station. However, the building was not completed because of the outbreak of the Second World War.

A few weeks before the war, on June 6, 1939, the still unfinished station was partly destroyed in a fire which had been started by a team of reckless welding contractors. Initially many people believed that it had been an act of sabotage by German or Soviet agents. During operation of putting out the fire, led personally by the minister of the interior Felicjan Sławoj-Składkowski, one fireman died and three were wounded.

In September 1939, the station was damaged during the Siege of Warsaw (1939). Later, German authorities made some improvements, e.g. construction of a new roof. The station, though still unfinished and partly destroyed, remained operational. This lasted until the Warsaw Uprising when, as a result of battle, the damage to the station got significantly bigger. In January 1945 the Germans, soon before retreating from Warsaw, blew the remains up.


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j..._glowny_05.jpg

Planned railway station building

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j...ny_projekt.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j..._glowny_07.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j..._glowny_06.jpg

Planned main entrance

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j...kie_glowny.jpg

Interiors and railway tracks.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j..._glowny_01.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j..._glowny_03.jpg

Planned interior

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j...ny_wnetrze.jpg

1939-1944 (Uncompleted station building):


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/j..._glowny_12.jpg


http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_...saw_WW2_21.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/290/290724.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/329/329871.jpg

To be honest, I would rather prefer to see this magnificent planned structure rebuilt and completed. While Warszawa Centralna should be demolished and replaced with a tall skyscraper (250 meters)

Next post: Ulica Marszałkowska - Marszałkowska street (Part 2)
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Old March 15th, 2013, 07:10 PM   #96
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I always thought Marszalkowska was widened for transportation reasons. But maybe it was just an excuse to demolish so many undamaged buildings on the west side. If it had some transportation function, then the width would have been maintained along its entire length and it would have continued north and south linking it to expressways.

Your idea of rebuilding the 1930’s station is fascinating and it would still leave room on the east end of the block for development and then the 70’s central station could be demolished and replaced with skyscrapers. Unfortunately the approved official plan for the area of Plac Defilad does not envision this.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #97
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Ulica Marszałkowska - Marszałkowska street (Part 2)

Jerozolimskie avenue - Plac Zbawiciela stretch

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/171/171444.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_22.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_25.jpg

Tenement "Under the Hussar" in the front

http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_27.jpg

Tenement in front still exist (though completely stripped of facade detail)

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/86/86378.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_26.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_29.jpg

Believe it or not, these beautiful tenements survived the war, but were demolished by the communists when the left side of the street was extended. The sight is today a part of the constitution square.

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/11/11483.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/250/250087.jpg


http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/350/350993.jpg


http://www.studiop2.pl/starawarszawa...lkowska_32.jpg

Government loyal soldiers during the "1926 Pilsudski Coup d'état"

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/136/136723.jpg


http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9127/marszalh.jpg

Zbawiciela square

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Zbawiciela.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/z...a/old/26_2.jpg


http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9...130315kl17.png

Kosciol Zbawiciela - Christ the saviour church

http://www.fotopolska.eu/foto/150/150821.jpg

Next post: Pole Mokotowskie - Mokotowskie field
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Old March 16th, 2013, 12:30 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
I always thought Marszalkowska was widened for transportation reasons.
It was. Transportation reasons + fascination of Champs-Elysees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
But maybe it was just an excuse to demolish so many undamaged buildings on the west side.
Were there any remaining???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
If it had some transportation function, then the width would have been maintained along its entire length and it would have continued north and south linking it to expressways.
That's exactly what was done. Marszalkowska overrides the Saxon Garden, then there is Bank Square and Anders st. (planned for dual carriageway, "temporarily" single carriegeway was built in 1947 and remains so to this day And then Zoliborz - Mickiewicza St.

To the south: Marszalkowska is connected with Pulawska by Warynskiego. All of them have double carriageway, 3 lanes each, or single carriageway, 6 lanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Your idea of rebuilding the 1930’s station is fascinating and it would still leave room on the east end of the block for development and then the 70’s central station could be demolished and replaced with skyscrapers. Unfortunately the approved official plan for the area of Plac Defilad does not envision this.
No, it would not. The location of Warsaw Central station is the only possible with the existing track pattern (4 platforms, 8 tracks in Central, 3 platforms, 3 tracks in Srodmiescie). It is not feasible to move the station in any direction.

Not to mention that there was a reason to build Warszawa Glowna St. in 1934. Now, there is no any reason whatsoever to built the new station.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #99
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No, it would not. The location of Warsaw Central station is the only possible with the existing track pattern (4 platforms, 8 tracks in Central, 3 platforms, 3 tracks in Srodmiescie). It is not feasible to move the station in any direction.

Not to mention that there was a reason to build Warszawa Glowna St. in 1934. Now, there is no any reason whatsoever to built the new station.
Centralna is really quite the relic, no matter what they do to try to modernize it and clean it up. I find its exterior appearance to be unappealing, especially with that oversized roof. It would be nice to see Warsaw with a modern, spacious central station. The city really deserves much better than the current Centralna, IMO. I wonder what the possibility of putting up a completely new station in the current location would be. Is it realistic to completely close Centralna for construction of a new structure? Can the underground tracks be bypassed? Would some of the station have to remain open in order not to cripple the city's transportation network?
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Old March 16th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
Centralna is really quite the relic, no matter what they do to try to modernize it and clean it up. I find its exterior appearance to be unappealing, especially with that oversized roof. It would be nice to see Warsaw with a modern, spacious central station.
Situation on the Polish State Railways (PKP) being as it is, I am positively astonished that they were able to clean the station in the first place And that is probably maximum program for the next two decades or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
The city really deserves much better than the current Centralna, IMO.
My opinion is the same, but since there is no chance for replacing the existing structure with anything better (I remind: the railway architecture today is marked by "achievements" such as Łódź Kaliska, Warszawa Wileńska, Częstochowa Główna), I'd prefer leaving the Central Station as it is.

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Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
I wonder what the possibility of putting up a completely new station in the current location would be.
Without crippling the whole train system in Warsaw? None.

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Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
Is it realistic to completely close Centralna for construction of a new structure?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
Can the underground tracks be bypassed?
In the Diameter Line? No.
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