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View Poll Results: please vote
mercury city tower 12 19.67%
eurasia 9 14.75%
city of capitals 14 22.95%
naberezhnaya 10 16.39%
triumph palace 7 11.48%
saphire 9 14.75%
moscow state university 14 22.95%
imperia tower 9 14.75%
palace of culture and science 11 18.03%
mosfilmovskaya 10 16.39%
warsaw trade tower 7 11.48%
hotel ukraine 9 14.75%
anthill residence 3 4.92%
varyap towers 8 13.11%
zlota 44 16 26.23%
antey 3 5 8.20%
rondo 1 10 16.39%
gulliver building 4 6.56%
flame towers 16 26.23%
isbank tower 5 8.20%
sparrow hills 4 6.56%
edelweiss 4 6.56%
kotelnicheskaya 6 9.84%
aliye parusa (scarlet sails) 3 4.92%
avaz twist tower 6 9.84%
ministry of foreign affairs 11 18.03%
nordstar 5 8.20%
sisli plaza 4 6.56%
tekstilkent plaza 5 8.20%
swissotel krasnye 4 6.56%
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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:40 PM   #41
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In fact, how Poles consider Lithuania - doesn't matter. Particularly for us. We think about Poland as a religious hell, so what? Does it make any sense? No. Does it re-draw geographically any belonging on smth.? No. Honestly, perhaps majority of lithuanians thinks about poles as more eastern, but that is because you're slavs and in some cases (yes, it not true, but myths are myths - it takes some time..) eastern europe=slavic europe
Tell me, neighbour, how the ... timezone or rail gouge makes Lithuania...Eastern Europe? Eastern neighbour - maybe Belarus? Lithuania is in the North and mostly all who have a bit more knowledge in lithuanian cultural aspects agree on that. Is not very difficult to find out information and only then make conclusions...I pointed out some criteria that describes us. and no time zone or rail gouge here is important...
The are no complex of being eastern. As i have sad, neither 100 years ago,nor now dont have any imagination of ourselves as easterners. If you are interested, please, you can check some data even from XIII century or read your beloved Dlugozch.I would say - lithuanians are very straightforward persons and it is obvious why we like clear statements without any "since Adome and Eve...bla bla shit".
don't read, he was total Lithuania hater.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:46 PM   #42
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[QUOTE=baczek333;106475025]

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The same with Poland, Lithuanian culture was from 15th to 19th century strongly connected with Poland, how can be in "different" Europes? Geographically, genetically, culturally, mentally we aren't eastern (if eastern means "Russian"). In the history all "western" trends always were coming to Lithuania from Poland, since your catholic baptism. Your language is more similar to Slavic than to Germanic languages (because of Balto-Slavic language community in the past). Your culture was influenced by Polish, while Latvian was influenced by German.
First, we must distinguish some things. To clear it up:
Crown and GDL were states of noble people. In this case, yes, nobles, mainly elite families, were strongly connected with Polish culture. No doubt. But ordinary X Pole from Warsaw and Y Lithunaian from Ukmergė, generally speaking, had nothing in common. No connection here. Sometimes we ignore that...
Yet it is "a bit different" in case of society culture, mindset and so on. Cultural background/cultural aspects of society. Even in Lithuania (back then, northern part of GDL), a Pole (lt. lenkas) was a synonym to..."Christian" (as far as i know, Sirokompla wrote about this..."misunderstanding").
Lithuanian language is absolutely different than slavic. If we look more deeply, we will find out more finic-origin words in lithuanian langauge (as well as baltic-origin in Finnish language) rather slavic. That is quite interesting, though. You can not even imagine how it is difficult to pronounce polish words for us
Our culture was not influenced by Polish, except, as i have said, noble culture. Even in XVII there were many "baptism-renewal" - that is why Catholicism (sort of Polish culture, actually) had no/less influence on us. It was very noticeable since XVII century first half. (W wielkiej bardzo części mego biskupstwa nie ma nikogo, kto by się raz w życiu spowiadał, nikogo, kto by się raz komunikował, nikogo, kto byumiał pacierz lub znak krzyża św., nikogo, kto by miał jakąkolwiek wiadomość o tajemnicach wiary — tymi słowy biskup żmudzki, książę Michał Giedroyć, użalał się w liście do generała jezuitów. List ten został napisany w 1587 r., kiedy to od oficjalnego chrztu Litwy upłynęły równo dwa stulecia!)


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By who? In 17th century Lithuania was a part of Rzeczpospolita, I wonder who considered it north. I know that Lithuanians used to find their ancestors in ancient Romans, but they came from the south, not north.
Pope's legates to Jesuits.... And so on. Actually, all travellers/nomads states that.
Only some noble elite families. here is interesting that it was done to separate from trendy sarmatian self-identification in Poland/Crown. Secondly, because of some scholars (in XVI), they found out that tehre are many similarities between old-latin and lithuanian language (lithuanian language is teh most archaic IE language). So they had crated some legends about Palemons and so on. Again, that was popular amongst noble families (minority). Frankly, Italian culture was very popular in Commonwealth, but it reached, for instance, Stockholm. So that is not a criteria.

Last edited by Prosp; August 25th, 2013 at 04:54 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #43
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Lithuanian language is absolutely different than slavic.
But both come from this Balto-Slavic language community.

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that is why catcholism (sort of Polish culture, actually) had no/less influence on us.
So why are you, even those Lithuanians from Samogitia, catholics?

I agree that Rzeczpospolita was a noble state and peasants from Poland and from Baltic parts of Lithuania really differed from each other. But nowadays Lithuanians don't deny their noble heritage, you treat Vilnius (built by nobles and rich merchants, not by peasants speaking only Lithuanian) as your capital and the heart of the country. You didn't convert to paganism, you still stay catholic (of course we don't talk about importance of religion in the society nowadays, only "culture", Lithuania is mostly catholic while Latvia is protestant). You say that a lot of nobles speaking only Polish were in fact Lithuanians and you feel historical connections with them.

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So they had crated some legends about Palemons and so on.
I know, it was only a joke

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Actually, all travellers/nomads states that.
So there were a lot of people who considered Poland western, antemurale christianitatis etc. Cities like Kraków were more similar to Rome than to Moscow or Stockholm.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:06 PM   #44
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In Lithuania nobility (in Žemailyja ~75-80% in other regions more) speak in polish language, in XVII, especially in XVIII century, but still thay consider themselves as Lithuanians not Poles.

Genetically WE ARE MORE CLOSELY RELATED with Finno-Ugric population, like Latvians and Estonians. Our languege are one of the most archaic in the world (INDOEUROPEAN group), and contains just 8 or 5 proc. of slavic words, by the root of the word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language
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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #45
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Since when the time zone, rail gauge (soon all will be replaced with "European" ones) determines country's geographic location, not talking about culture ect. LOL

You are east of Poland, deal with this. For you Poland is west and we know this, we see you every weekend in our malls, discounts, Ikeas since you don't have your own.

Last edited by markfos; August 25th, 2013 at 06:46 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 07:07 PM   #46
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We now have IKEA in Vilnius. For us Lithuanians Poland are not west, people go to Poland becose of lower commodity prices: due to the lower value-added taxes and lower zlot value. So don't talk bullshit. We have all we need, but if you have option to buy cheaper, especially if you live closer to the border, you go there.

P.S. and go **** your self scumbag, Lithuania is not Polan and never be.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 07:35 PM   #47
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We now have IKEA in Vilnius. For us Lithuanians Poland are not west, people go to Poland becose of lower commodity prices.
Right, you go for shopping because you have higher prices and have no discounts as Poland does, that is why everything is cheaper in Poland. (way bigger retail market). Also our salaries are 40% higher so...yes, Lithuania is a nice country but with lower living standard, that's the way it is dear eastern neighbour.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #48
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Nobody in Poland wants Lithuania. The main topic is Central/Eastern/Northern Europe. I asked you to show me the map where Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary are Central, while Poland is Eastern, only this (of course the map with a source). If you don't show me it, you'll show your "butthurt" about Poland, because you still try to despise our country by pretending that we are in "worst" Europe, different one than Hungarians or Slovaks (although you have no evidence) and you are in "best" Europe (although your connections with northern, scandinavian or ugro-finnic culture aren't really big, you're the most different from those countries, because you're catholic and you had no Germanic influence (apart from small western part of your country).

Everybody knows that the main difference between "Europes" is the level of economy. And according to it, our continent can be divided into only two "Europes", rich and poor. There is no real "centre" between them, maybe only Slovenia.

Last edited by baczek333; August 25th, 2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #49
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Nobody in Poland wants Lithuania. The main topic is Central/Eastern/Northern Europe. I asked you to show me the map where Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary are Central, while Poland is Eastern, only this (of course the map with a source). If you don't show me it, you'll show your "butthurt" about Poland, because you still try to despise our country by pretending that we are in "worst" Europe, different one than Hungarians or Slovaks (although you have no evidence) and you are in "best" Europe (although your connections with northern, scandinavian or ugro-finnic culture aren't really big, you're the most different from those countries, because you're catholic and you had no Germanic influence (apart from small western part of your country).

Everybody knows that the main difference between "Europes" is the level of economy. And according to it, our continent can be divided into only two "Europes", rich and poor. There is no real "centre" between them, maybe only Slovenia.
You puting some sentences in my mouth that l never sed. l just told that we have similarities in genes, not that we are better or in the same economic level with Finland. Talking about East, Central Europe, l have in minde bigger context (mentaly) that others have - westerners. And l have source where geograficaly Poland is in E. Europe, Lithuania not. But l did not say that Lithuania is in WEST or NORTH (by others it is not, but geograficaly it is considered that Lithuania is NORTHERN country). http://www.mapsofworld.com/europe/co...urope-map.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe

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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #50
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[QUOTE=baczek333;106475896]

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But both come from this Balto-Slavic language community.
Still it's to different language and have no similarities. What was thousands years ago - not important. Baltic languages aren't closely related to slavic. Even there are no similarities. Both language originated from the same "branch", but developed completely in the different way.


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So why are you, even those Lithuanians from Samogitia, catholics?

I agree that Rzeczpospolita was a noble state and peasants from Poland and from Baltic parts of Lithuania really differed from each other. But nowadays Lithuanians don't deny their noble heritage, you treat Vilnius (built by nobles and rich merchants, not by peasants speaking only Lithuanian) as your capital and the heart of the country. You didn't convert to paganism, you still stay catholic (of course we don't talk about importance of religion in the society nowadays, only "culture", Lithuania is mostly catholic while Latvia is protestant). You say that a lot of nobles speaking only Polish were in fact Lithuanians and you feel historical connections with them.
You see, it's quote interesting, because lithuanians are not religious persons, except some elder. During 5 years only 5 student started to study in seminary I think that is because of young catholism traditions (during XV-XVIII organizational structure of church was poorly developed and people did not show anyinterest in that), or in some case - negative approach towards religion as such. If we look to societies (how i hate this word..) cultural aspects - lithuania's society are not "hierarchical" one.
i am glad about that, but that's my personal view therefore let's exclude it out from the discussion.
Cathocolism became important during sovietic time, but just as a part of resistance. So yes, in one case we are catholics, on the other hand, it is sort of tradition.
By the way pagan practices/pagan traditions remained until XIX/XX century. And it is very rich compared to other countries. That's because of strong oral culture.

Actually, cathocolism did not shaped our mentallity. As i have wrote, it was more or less political decision. Compared to Lv/Est - you wont find any LARGE differences between them and our state.Work ethics? More business orientated people?Workaholic? No way. The same is in LT. That is the most interesting thing. Determined be harsh environment, not religion, which was not strong.

Treating historical heritage doesn't make us Poles.
Just try to compare average lithuanian to pole (physiognomy, let's say) you will find completely significant differences.
What i have in mind, is that according many source, also according to our understanding, plus taking MANY criterias into account, you will easily find out that we are not EE. EE - only when you emphasise on soviet/commie history. Nothing more.
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<...>although your connections with northern, scandinavian or ugro-finnic culture aren't really big, you're the most different from those countries, because you're catholic and you had no Germanic influence (apart from small western part of your country).
Cathocolism did not shape our mentality. Since interwar - very close relationship (see baltocandinavia ideas), at the moment - our economy depends on Scandinavia

Last edited by Prosp; August 25th, 2013 at 09:33 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:28 PM   #51
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Everybody knows that Lithuanians have this ex-soviet complex and are complexed because Germany is our neighbour.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:28 PM   #52
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Right, you go for shopping because you have higher prices and have no discounts as Poland does, that is why everything is cheaper in Poland. (way bigger retail market). Also our salaries are 40% higher so...yes, Lithuania is a nice country but with lower living standard, that's the way it is dear eastern neighbour.
Speaking frankly, purchase power in Lt is higher And salaries depends on your job. almost all my friend earns about 2000-3500 eur.! Do not think that 24-26 years old people can get such salaries in Poland (because of larger competition and larger market). So, please, dear, write only about you know and not according to wiki or to "one grannie told me once...". This means, ye, Poland is much more cheaper because of...TAXATION! On the other hand, i do not think we give a damn shit on marketnets while we put more attention on hight value products and particularly - developing our state-of-the-art industries (IT, lasers, life science, chemistry). You can thousand of discount markets but because of VAT, which is smaller in PL, you will pay twice in LT.
Btv, my girlfirend as well as her firends buys mostly lithuanian design products (clothes) (another common feature to Nordics?)) )

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Originally Posted by markfos View Post
You are east of Poland, deal with this. For you Poland is west and we know this, we see you every weekend in our malls, discounts, Ikeas since you don't have your own.
That is Poland's opinion. You should know that lithuanians do not care about Poland and Poles impressions towards us. As well as Poles do not care about it. However, we consider Poland as C/EE, not West. Sorry.
Still Lithuania is considered as a Northern Europe and the term "eastern europe" might be applied only in the case of former history. By the way, is some media, especially anglo-saxon, Poland also "part of eastern europe" so it not a big deal? But first ask yourself in what manner they apply this term.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:30 PM   #53
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Everybody knows that Lithuanians have this ex-soviet complex and are complexed because Germany is our neighbour.
Poland was not a former commie country?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by markfos View Post
Right, you go for shopping because you have higher prices and have no discounts as Poland does, that is why everything is cheaper in Poland. (way bigger retail market). Also our salaries are 40% higher so...yes, Lithuania is a nice country but with lower living standard, that's the way it is dear eastern neighbour.
WHA....T????!!!!! We in the same level as Poland
look: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=67
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #55
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And l have source where geograficaly Poland is in E. Europe, Lithuania not.
I want the source where Czech Rep., Slovakia and Hungary are Central and Poland is western, because you said:

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(the great Eastern European context - Central Europe) Slovenia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, sometimes Poland.
So why "sometimes" Poland? Where is an example of the map where Poland isn't Central while the rest of V4 is?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #56
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the great Eastern European context your brain can not process what l mean by that, so do not worry about that any more.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:47 PM   #57
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Still it's to different language and have no similarities. What was thousands years ago - not important. Baltic languages aren't closely related to slavic. Even there are no similarities. Both language originated from the same "branch", but developed completely in the different way.
Of course it's different, but still closer to Slavic than to Germanic and that's the only thing I meant.


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You see, it's quote interesting, because lithuanians are not religious persons, except some elder.
I know, I said that we omit importance of religion, only the culture of religion - catholic churches, the hill of crosses etc. It's the part of your culture and you can't deny it.


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By the way pagan practices/pagan traditions remained until XIX/XX century. And it is very rich compared to other countries. That's because of strong oral culture.
In Poland pagan traditions also remained, but it doesn't change the fact we're catholic and those traditions were adopted by catholic church. Lithuania is also catholic and some pagan traditions can't change it.

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Actually, cathocolism did not shaped our mentallity. As i have wrote, it was more or less political decision.
The baptism of Poland was probably only political decision, because Mieszko I didn't really believe in a completely foreign god. And what does it mean "to shape mentality"? How did catholicism shape the mentality of Bavarians and Austrians that they are richer than protestant Germans from the north?


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Treating historical heritage doesn't make us Poles.
I don't claim you're Poles and I would never say that. I just said that you had more connections with Polish culture than Germanic (Scandinavian). Religion is always the very important part of culture, even if it's not really important as real faith. But you have catholic churches as your old beautiful buildings, not protestant or orthodox (in most cases).


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you will easily find out that we are not EE. EE - only when you emphasise on soviet/commie history. Nothing more.
The same with Poland.

Last edited by baczek333; August 25th, 2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:48 PM   #58
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the great Eastern European context your brain can not process what l mean by that, so do not worry about that any more.
Facepalm. Why didn't you write this word "sometimes" before Czech Rep., Slovakia, Hungary, only before Poland? So now please, show me this map which shows this "great eastern european context" where Poland is Eastern and Czech Rep, Slovakia and Hungary Central. I don't want anything more.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #59
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Real E. Europe countries with almost all characteristics of E. Europe, or some exceptions, are: Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland
Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan - Asia
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #60
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WHA....T????!!!!! We in the same level as Poland
look: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=67
Somehow we earn much more than you eastern neighbour/ex soviet state.
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