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Old June 5th, 2016, 02:53 PM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
You don't want to mix high speed rail with other slower forms of rail transport, especially freight, as it defeats the purpose of high speed rail, which is to provide safe, high speed, and reliable intercity transport that is competitive with air travel. Also, running high speed trains on non grade separated track is to be avoided, as it increases risks of accidents, unless you want to run the trains no faster than current trains (120km/h?)
The section that will be shared is not local or freight trains track, but the Thai-Chinese high-speed rail track route.

Thailand believes part of the high-speed rail track from Bang Sue in Bangkok to Ban Phachi in Ayutthaya can share the same rail route with Thai-Chinese high-speed rail track, but Japan thinks not.

Japan suggested the construction of a separate track, which increased the project's cost as a result.

Further talks to discuss the project will take place on June 20.

The section going north.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 03:16 PM   #582
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Construction of Thai-Chinese railway project to get started in August or September

BANGKOK, 16 May 2016 (NNT) - Transport Minister Arkhom Termpittayapaisith announced that the 10th meeting of a joint committee for a Thai-Chinese railway cooperation project went smoothly.

Thailand will be responsible for the project’s investment capital and China will consider reducing construction and rail system costs while maintaining safety standards and suitability details of which will be resolved within one week.

The construction is divided into two parts: the construction of infrastructure and rail system and that of a high-speed train. The construction is expected to get started within August or September.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/CenterWeb/...O5905140010015


THAILAND WILL go ahead with the Sino-Thai railway project, work on which is expected to start in September this year after both countries' officials reached an agreement at their 10th meeting in Beijing on Wednesday and Thursday.

The move followed the agreement in principle on March 23 in Hainan by the leaders of the two countries on government-to-government cooperation by which Thailand would solely invest in the project and start construction of the railway track for the Bangkok-Nakhon Ratchasima section first.

"Thailand will invest in the whole project according to the agreement by the two nations' leaders," said Transport Minister Arkhom Termpittayapaisith.

He said the committees of both nations would have more discussions on the project's investment value following a Thai request to the Chinese side to revise down costs of civil engineering work and the electrical train system. The cost revision would take into account safety standards, he added.

"The Chinese side will conclude this matter within one week," said Arkhom.

The Bangkok-Nakhon Ratchasima section is about 271.5 kilometres in length, as part of the 873km full project, which will run from Nong Khai to Bangkok and then to Laem Chabang and is expected to cost more than Bt500 billion.

Arkhom said the project would obtain the engineering procurement and construction model, but would be divided into two parts - civil engineering works, and rolling stock and signalling system.

He said the civil engineering work would be the responsibility of the Thai side and the government would seek participation of Thai contractors. The work might be divided into four or five parts in order to speed up construction. The government might start construction first of the section that has the fewest problems such as the Korat-Pak Chong section, or the section in Ban Phachi, Ayutthaya.

The Chinese side would be responsible for the rolling stock and signalling system as well as drawings for the construction, said Arkhom. The Chinese government would select China's state-owned enterprises with high quality standard after agreement with the Thai side.

Arkhom said the Thai side would also operate the high-speed trains by setting up a train operator with train operation and manpower training support provided by the Chinese side.

The Thai side will also seek funding for the project. The country is willing to consider loans offered by China to procure the rolling stocks system from it. However, the cost and conditions of the loan would have to be acceptable.

"The two sides agreed to set a time framework of the civil engineering construction as first phase within August or September," said Arkhom.

"We expect the designs to take about 60 days," he said, adding the next meeting was scheduled for June to finalise the framework of cooperation between Thai and Chinese governments on the details of the railway project.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/poli...-30285927.html
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Old June 5th, 2016, 05:21 PM   #583
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Well, in that case, it would be "too many cooks spoiling the broth". You would have too many issues of compatibility, because both countries want to install their own systems. When something goes wrong, there are too many issues of liability, and when you are talking about the amount of money involved in these types of projects, something like an accident occurring could have far reaching implications, not just domestically, but internationally.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #584
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Well, in that case, it would be "too many cooks spoiling the broth". You would have too many issues of compatibility, because both countries want to install their own systems. When something goes wrong, there are too many issues of liability, and when you are talking about the amount of money involved in these types of projects, something like an accident occurring could have far reaching implications, not just domestically, but internationally.
That's a problem. Two standards for HSR run parallel in Thailand and they are not compatible with each other....
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Old June 6th, 2016, 03:25 PM   #585
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Why don't Thailand propose to the Japanese to build a system like the one in Taiwan? The signaling would be the same, but keep the line separate from the Chinese one.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 03:27 PM   #586
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Why don't Thailand propose to the Japanese to build a system like the one in Taiwan? The signaling would be the same, but keep the line separate from the Chinese one.
This is the way Thailand is trying to get the best deals from both Chinese government and Japanese government, clear and simple
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Old June 6th, 2016, 03:50 PM   #587
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BTW, Chinese columnist has come up with assessment on Thai - China Railway after Big Too (PM Prayut) has decided to start the section from Bangsue Central to Nakhon Ratchasima with the total distance of 250 km with max speed of 250 kph financed by domestic loan (definitely government Bonds and mutual funds) at 170,000 Million Baht since Thailand cannot stand with the Chinese's study result that demand 190,000 Million Baht investment (including 800 Baht daily wage for Chinese workers while Thai version would use 300 Baht daily wage) ... along with the interest rates on loan from Chinese EXIM Bank at 2.5% since Thailand has pressed the demand for 2% annual interest rate on loan and the controversies on the commercial developments along the route as almost all sections along the route (except the newly appropriated land) belongs to SRT.

Even though Thailand accepts Chinese technology on High Speed train along with Chinese contractors for the line to Khorat, there is no clear point when the section on Khorat to Nong Khai will be implemented. Worse, Japanese government has offered the loan for Thai - Japanese railway (Bangsue Central - Phitsanuloke - Chiang Mai) at 1% annual interest rate, the main reason why Thailand has pressed such a low interest rate on loan at the first place.

Chinese columnist said Japanese loan is actually costing more than Chinese loan at the long run despite of lower interest rate since Loan in Yen denomination will be more appreciated by FOREX fluctuation than Chinese loan which have exchange rate under control while insisting that the regular rate on loan from Chinese EXIM Bank is 3% a year while the friendship rate is 2.5% a year. Therefore, Thai government's request for the loan at 2% annual rate is totally unfair to Chinese government and should never set an example to other countries who beg for Chinese loan to follow. The 2% annual rate for Indonesian High Speed train is just an aid for Indonesian government to implement Jakarta - Bundung high speed train, not a commercial rate.

Chinese columnist even insists that since Thai - China railway has been initiated by Chinese government so the interest rates at the market rate of 2.5-3% along with commercial development along the railway line to pay off the debts are fully justified.

Note: Mainland Chinese government has failed to learn that almost all Foreign loans by Thai government have become securitized loan - Thai government is going to pay back the loan and interests at the fixed exchange rates which both Thailand and creditors have agreed with.
On the other hand, Chinese government should learn about the sensitive issue of the land along the railway line. Commercialization of the railway land without consent from Thai people on the certain rates of land leasing mean Chinese government has declared WAR against Thai people.

http://onebelt.net/bencandy.php?fid=4&id=330
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Old June 6th, 2016, 09:53 PM   #588
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On the other hand, Chinese government should learn about the sensitive issue of the land along the railway line. Commercialization of the railway land without consent from Thai people on the certain rates of land leasing mean Chinese government has declared WAR against Thai people.

http://onebelt.net/bencandy.php?fid=4&id=330

Isn't China side had discussed commercialization of the railway land with Thai side already? Thai side didn't agree, so it is off the table. What do you mean "Commercialization of the railway land without consent from Thai people" means "has declared WAR against Thai people" ?? Isn't China has been consulting Thai side all along? Or you mean Thai negotiators don't represent the interest of Thai people? It was merely an option in a long negotiation, so when Thai said it is not OK, that should be the end of it and move on... So please don't employ such harsh rhetoric e.g. "declared WAR against Thai people"...

On a lighter note, I think China columnist is wrong on the loan issue, China ExIm offers US dollar loan, not RMB loan. China ExIm wanted to offer RMB loan at much lower interest rate to Thai but got rejected since Thai side thought future transaction cost is too high (RMB is not fully convertible yet)
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Old June 6th, 2016, 10:07 PM   #589
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Why don't Thailand propose to the Japanese to build a system like the one in Taiwan? The signaling would be the same, but keep the line separate from the Chinese one.
Taiwan HSR use Siemens/Japan hybrid signaling system and has some problems lately...
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Old June 6th, 2016, 11:00 PM   #590
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What does "commercialization of the railway land" even mean? The only places of interest for commercialization are the railway stations and immediate surroundings. That's not really a large area, so why is this such a sensitive issue?
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Old June 6th, 2016, 11:08 PM   #591
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Isn't China side had discussed commercialization of the railway land with Thai side already? Thai side didn't agree, so it is off the table. What do you mean "Commercialization of the railway land without consent from Thai people" means "has declared WAR against Thai people" ?? Isn't China has been consulting Thai side all along? Or you mean Thai negotiators don't represent the interest of Thai people? It was merely an option in a long negotiation, so when Thai said it is not OK, that should be the end of it and move on... So please don't employ such harsh rhetoric e.g. "declared WAR against Thai people"...

On a lighter note, I think China columnist is wrong on the loan issue, China ExIm offers US dollar loan, not RMB loan. China ExIm wanted to offer RMB loan at much lower interest rate to Thai but got rejected since Thai side thought future transaction cost is too high (RMB is not fully convertible yet)
For the issue of loan, the reason why Thai government has chosen US Dollar denomination is due to the fact that it is Bank of Thailand's regulation that the foreign loan should be in the fully convertible currency. If Renminbi has been fully convertible, Thai government would certainly taking a serious consideration on loan in RMB denomination.

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What does "commercialization of the railway land" even mean? The only places of interest for commercialization are the railway stations and immediate surroundings. That's not really a large area, so why is this such a sensitive issue?

For the issue of commercial development of land along the railway line, it is necessary to draw the CLEAR lines that which section of railway land can be commercially developed without invoking a controversy and which section has been forbidden from commercial development as it is the reserved land for double tracking or other railway's necessaries including housing for workers and officers.

For the width SRT land strip, the railway land will be 40 meter wide (less than the way Chinese railway have dictated to 50 meter wide land strip) with exception on the area around the station which is about 200-300 meter wide though.

The land beyond the SRT land strips and the areas around railway stations belong to the local landlords so it is necessary for Chinese government and Chinese investors to negotiate with those landlords FIRST or better settle in Industrial estates instead for some certain investment. JV with local real estate companies would help. For those well to do, just purchase condo with the city area would work as many stations for Thai - China railway are within the urban areas or the edge of the city limits.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 11:14 PM   #592
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The land beyond the SRT land strips and the areas around railway stations belong to the local landlords so it is necessary for Chinese government and Chinese investors to negotiate with those landlords FIRST or better settle in Industrial estates instead for some certain investment. JV with local real estate companies would help. For those well to do, just purchase condo with the city area would work as many stations for Thai - China railway are within the urban areas or the edge of the city limits.
What was the China position then? ask Thai gov to buy/confiscate the land strips and give it to China property developers? I don't think China gov has a role to get involved in negotiating with those landlords. If you want this scheme to be viable, this can only be B2B model, as you said, form a JV with locals to co-develop....

The whole thing is confusing... China want to be a stakeholder or loan provider? if the former, it makes sense for them to develop these area to compensate the railway cost. I assume China is the later. Then they shouldn't worry if the railway will turn profitable or not, unless they worry Thai side won't keep good on repaying the loan so China has to raise other revenue to cover the possible loss in advance...

Thai side should be more motivated than China to develop these areas. Only a few HSRs around the world will be turn profitable, unless you count the property appreciation in the surrounding area. Thai railway authority should be the one teaming up with local developers to build department stores and other amenities to cover the railway cost...

Last edited by tjrgx; June 7th, 2016 at 01:08 AM.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 12:25 AM   #593
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I still don't get it. A HSR route isn't like a (Thai-style) highway where you can develop the land along the road because it is fully accessible by car. A HSR train will just pass by and only stop at railway stations. Why should that make land along the route commercially more interesting?
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Old June 7th, 2016, 01:16 AM   #594
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I still don't get it. A HSR route isn't like a (Thai-style) highway where you can develop the land along the road because it is fully accessible by car. A HSR train will just pass by and only stop at railway stations. Why should that make land along the route commercially more interesting?
I think that depends on the station density. If they are dense enough, then developing the land along the route is commercially viable...
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Old June 7th, 2016, 03:19 AM   #595
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What was the China position then? ask Thai gov to buy/confiscate the land strips and give it to China property developers? I don't think China gov has a role to get involved in negotiating with those landlords. If you want this scheme to be viable, this can only be B2B model, as you said, form a JV with locals to co-develop....

The whole thing is confusing... China want to be a stakeholder or loan provider? if the former, it makes sense for them to develop these area to compensate the railway cost. I assume China is the later. Then they shouldn't worry if the railway will turn profitable or not, unless they worry Thai side won't keep good on repaying the loan so China has to raise other revenue to cover the possible loss in advance...

Thai side should be more motivated than China to develop these areas. Only a few HSRs around the world will be turn profitable, unless you count the property appreciation in the surrounding area. Thai railway authority should be the one teaming up with local developers to build department stores and other amenities to cover the railway cost...
Some final thoughts on this:

1. Interest rate. I know it became a point of contention when Thai media compare 2% in Indonesia case to 2.5% in Thai one. I understand that was part of the negotiation. But still simple comparison lacks nuance. China side is a stakeholder and operator in a JV with local Indonesian SOE, so they have certain control over the project, that means risk premium on the loan is lower. It is not favorable to compare rates across the board, just as you can't simply compare 1% japanese loan has offered (is this accurate number?) with 0.1% (50 years, 15 year grace period) in India HSR case...

2. Standards. It seems Japan and China will build HSRs with different standards. Chinese standard is compatible with European one, while Japanese one is higher and more strict. Japan's unwillness to share tracks is less to do with the animosity to China but more to do with compatibility and safety concerns. Whose fault will be if something goes wrong, Japan's signaling system or China's rolling stock? If Thai only want to have these 2 HSR lines it is OK to have two standards. If Thai want to have a HSR network then it is important to have a unified standard so Thai can have more rolling stock choices and network can be inter-connected. (Actually during the recent EU-Japan EPA talk, EU side are constantly asking Japan to lower its tech barrier so EU firms can compete with local firms in Japan's domestic market)
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Old June 7th, 2016, 12:09 PM   #596
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What was the China position then? ask Thai gov to buy/confiscate the land strips and give it to China property developers? I don't think China gov has a role to get involved in negotiating with those landlords. If you want this scheme to be viable, this can only be B2B model, as you said, form a JV with locals to co-develop....

The whole thing is confusing... China want to be a stakeholder or loan provider? if the former, it makes sense for them to develop these area to compensate the railway cost. I assume China is the later. Then they shouldn't worry if the railway will turn profitable or not, unless they worry Thai side won't keep good on repaying the loan so China has to raise other revenue to cover the possible loss in advance...

Thai side should be more motivated than China to develop these areas. Only a few HSRs around the world will be turn profitable, unless you count the property appreciation in the surrounding area. Thai railway authority should be the one teaming up with local developers to build department stores and other amenities to cover the railway cost...
Investors can only leasing SRT land for commercial development - for the areas neighbor to SRT land, esp in urban areas, take a look at this before embarking investments:

To prevent any controversies, take a look at this to get some thought which can be applied

1) How a foreigner can buy real estate in Thailand - Yes indeed, foreigners can certainly invest in the Thai property market
http://www.ajarn.com/blogs/neil-mcdo...e-in-thailand/

2) Can Foreigners Own Property in Thailand?
http://property.thaivisa.com/can-for...erty-thailand/

3) Buying Land - Thailand Property
http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate...uying-land.php

There is an anecdote from Thai editorial cartoonist during the early day economic boom in early 1990's that

Quote:
Those pessimists would think that when investors are shopping around the land that force Thai people to become landless mass while those optimists would think they can travel to foreign land without the need to take international flight or go across the border.

Now, Thai government and Chinese government has agreed with the total price tag at 189,999 Million Baht before signing the revised Framework of Cooperation (FOC) - down from 220,000 Million Baht according to Chinese government's suggestion
BTW, 170,000 Million Baht has not taken Ban Phachi section into account though. The cut of 30,000 Million Baht is due to the whole investment by Thai government so it has to use Thai prices are a rule along with the cut of unnecessary stations including

1) Ban Phachi (may be constructed once Thai - Japanese railway have been signed)
2) Kaeng Khoi (construction once the line will be branched out along Klong 19 Bypass and Aranyaprathet Line to Chachoengsao)
3) Khok Sa-ad (no need for this station)

ONLY Bangsue Central (new terminus for Bangkok), Ayutthaya (km 71 from Bangkok terminus at Hua Lamphong), Saraburi (km 116 from Bangkok terminus at Hua Lamphong), Pak Chong (km 183 from Bangkok terminus at Hua Lamphong) and Nakhon Ratchasima (km 264 from Bangkok terminus at Hua Lamphong) will be constructed as High Speed train stations

There will be a maintenance center at Chiang Rak Noy station (km 56 from Bangkok terminus at Hua Lamphong) and making a move on the section from Bangsue Central to Ban Phachi to avoid PTT Pipelines and Lam Takhong reservoir

Thai - China High Speed train will start at the 3 km Klang Dong - Pang Asok section in Dong Phraya Yen as a pilot section with a price tag on this section at 500 Million Baht - started in September 2016

the detailed design must be done within 60 days - Thai government will basic infrastructure using Thai contractors to handle 5 sections, start the construction in August - September 2016.
Chinese government will handle the High Speed train system and rolling stocks using Chinese state enterprises which have experiences on High Speed train to be picked by Thai government

There will be a JV companies to handle traffic with Chinese contribution on administration, training, and human resource developments for the early years

For financial resources, Thai government is going to issue bonds and mutual funds to finance this project while seeking Chinese loan to pay for the High Speed train system and rolling stocks, if Chinese government agree with 2% annual interest rates on loan to purchase and install High Speed train system and rolling stocks.

REF: http://www.prachachat.net/news_detai...sid=1465184306

Those Khorat people get so excited with Thai - China High Speed train from Bangsue Central to Khorat
http://koratstartup.com/2016/06/06/hst-nak-bkk/

Ajarn Samart (Democrat man who graduated from Tokyo Institute of Technology after graduating from Chiang Mai University) gone mad after learning about the cost overrun on Thai - Japan railway from Bangsue Central to Chiang Mai via Nakhon Sawan and Phitsanuloke - 51% more expensive that even Yinglux version => as the cost to implement the system gone up from 387,821 Million Baht to 530,000 Million Baht. However, Ajarn Samart has failed to learn that Japanese have to come up with such a high price for a good reason - Japanese government FLATLY REFUSE to share tracks with Thai - China railway so they have to add the extra cost for separated tracks .... this is something OTP has to learn very hard way since they never take this issue into account before.
https://www.yaklai.com/news/politic/...ain-expensive/
http://www.matichon.co.th/news/162819
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Old June 7th, 2016, 02:24 PM   #597
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I think that depends on the station density. If they are dense enough, then developing the land along the route is commercially viable...
HSR is not a metro line, it will neither have high station density (otherwise it wouldn't be HSR) nor a mass commuter transport function (at least not in Thailand, in a foreseeable future). Why should somebody be interested in building houses, retail space or offices on land along a HSR route many kilometers outside the station area (only for the reason there being a HSR track)? It's a question I already asked before but nobody could ever explain it in an even mildly convincing way. To me it's almost equally a strange idea as if wanting to "develop" land along flight routes in between airports.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 05:22 PM   #598
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HSR is not a metro line, it will neither have high station density (otherwise it wouldn't be HSR) nor a mass commuter transport function (at least not in Thailand, in a foreseeable future). Why should somebody be interested in building houses, retail space or offices on land along a HSR route many kilometers outside the station area (only for the reason there being a HSR track)? It's a question I already asked before but nobody could ever explain it in an even mildly convincing way. To me it's almost equally a strange idea as if wanting to "develop" land along flight routes in between airports.
I think the reason why they've basically called dibs on land is for two reasons:

Firstly, it's an indirect and polite manner to effectively monopolize anciliary developments around the stations.

Secondly, the nature of urbanization in East Asia, and the fact that Bangkok-Chiang Mai and Bangkok-Korat-Khon Kaen lines travel along existing major arteries means there's a huge potential for the 'commuterization' of high-speed rail lines (prevalent in Japan, in progress in China and Taiwan). And with that comes even more scope for more commercial, industrial and residential developments around future stations. You're looking at a maximum of 50-60km intervals of agriculture or untouched land before you get some form of urbanization, be it a large town or a city. In addition, when you consider the potential of cities and metro areas, this dibs on land becomes very, very contentious because of its investment potential, and this being Thailand, has a high probability of development happening.

I still remember the early 2000s when Suvarnabhumi was in the middle of nowhere. Now it's virtually nonstop urbanization along Sukhumvit Road from Bangkok to Pattaya.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 06:58 PM   #599
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I still remember the early 2000s when Suvarnabhumi was in the middle of nowhere. Now it's virtually nonstop urbanization along Sukhumvit Road from Bangkok to Pattaya.
Yes, but this is a consequence of expanding road infrastructure. Cars can leave a highway at many points, it's an entirely different story. How could 50 km or more of rail tracks with no stopping point in between catalyze that much investment througout the route?

In Japan it makes sense to use HSR e.g. between Tokyo, Osaka and Nagoya because these are cities with very extensive metro systems which perfectly complement the HSR. Same when travelling from Beijing to Shanghai and probably also in Taiwan. But not in Thailand, where the metro system in Bangkok is still comparably limited (even though rapidly expanding) and nonexistent outside Bangkok.
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Old June 7th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #600
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Phahonyothin Yothin Transit Oriented Development (TOD)

Thailand's first Transit Oriented Development (TOD). To develop the land around Bang Sue Grand station. From the second public hearing.















Credit: Khun Chuthaphong Saetang
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