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Old May 6th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
then, you haven't looked very much.
No matter how much one is looking, it's very hard to find anything common between for example contrreformation 17th century barocco from Vienna/Prague and Netherlands Renaissance in Gdansk Although all of them were being developed in 17th century mostly by Germans. Germany is (and always was) extremely rich in the cultural field and its variety makes it incomparable to any other European state. It also means that it's hard to find any common denominator for German lands in 16th century. Apart from language. Which also differed.

I can imagine, what "Silesian barocco" or "Bohemian 17th century", "Tudor style" or "Louis XIII" mean, I even more or less understand what somebody has in mind saying about "German rent-houses from late 19th century", "German expressionism" or "German Bauhaus" but I don't have the faintest idea, what does "German architecture of 16th century" means.

So I re-iterate: could you explain this? Does this "German design A.D. 1550" exist at all in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
As stated earlier, please feel free to cheer ethnicity and nationalism and winning war reparations, but please refrain from pasting the 'made in Poland by Poles' label on the major architectural infrastructure and historical architecture of Silesia prior to 1945.
I have never said that castle in Brzeg was "made in Poland by Poles" IIRC nobody else wrote it either. And it's quite obvious to me, that most of citizens of Brzeg/Brieg, including Herzog and his court, were - at the time of expanding the Brzeg Castle - German speaking. Not to mention, that Brzeg was outside Kingdom of Poland for over 200 years.

But I'm looking at that picture and - forgive me - for me its clearly Italian-like renaissance residence, modelled after Cracovian Wawel and expanded in XVI century by de Pario architects. Who also used to work in Uppsala, Stockholm, Kalmar, Rostock and Warsaw.

Not much of a Heimat-stihl, is there?

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Old May 6th, 2013, 07:00 PM   #22
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I've read a bit more about history of Silesia and the last real chance to incorporate some of the Silesian lands peacefully into Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was in the 17th century, when from 1645 until 1666 Duchy of Opole and Raciborz was held in pawn by Polish House of Vasa (map) and descendant of Polish Piasts, Christian (Duke of Brzeg and Legnica, see the map) presented officially his candidacy to the Polish throne in 1668. At the time, Polish-speaking Silesians were still majority in those territories.

Christian of Brzeg also known as of Legnica (1618-1672)
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Old May 6th, 2013, 08:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karasek View Post
The main goal of the (free) reconstruction was to rebuilt the inner courtyard, which now very much looks like the courtyard of the Wawel in Krakow, although the original courtyard was probably more related to the new Georgenhof in Dresden, which the Parrs visited shortly before, or castles in Northern Italy, where the family came from.
I think the reconstrucion based on the remainin parts of courtyard. You can see it on this picture:

http://www.polnische-burgen.de/xz/brzeg20.jpg

They coppied arches and columns.

Here you see the preserved part of cloister in darker colour and reconstruction made from brighter stone:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n..._6735865_n.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post

Agree the gate is beautiful, but is it not fully German in period, design, engineering, and construction? This is one part of the entire region's architectureal heritage that is German in nature, culture, and substance. That Poles "won" the equity simply means they gained current ownership, not historic rights to claim intellectual property or artistic creation.
Prussian kings considered the castle as proof that Silesia is ancient Hohenzollerns property and should belong to Berlin. That was silly justification for invasion of Austria in 1741. 200 year later the same castle was described proof that Silesia is "ancient part of Poland".

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
then, you haven't looked very much.

As stated earlier, please feel free to cheer ethnicity and nationalism and winning war reparations, but please refrain from pasting the 'made in Poland by Poles' label on the major architectural infrastructure and historical architecture of Silesia prior to 1945. It doesn't matter to me, personally, if the architectural greatness was created and built by Germans, Poles, or for that matter Asians, but if anyone feels compelled to give design and construction credit, best to keep historical facts accurate and honest in spite of anyone's wish the facts were otherwise.
Actually this structure has lot in common with Poland. Look carefoully at this photo: http://dolny-slask.org.pl/foto/108/108594.jpg

You can see images of polish monarchs Boleslav, Myeslav and Kazimir. The gate was build by son of Piasts and Hohenzollerns who were polish allies in 16th century. As you can see, silesian Piasts were fully aware of their polish origin even if their spoke german and married german wifes.

And don't forget that the gate was designed by Bernhard Niuron whose family came from italian part of Switzerland. So called Comacine masters were very prominent in Silesia and Polish Kingdom in 16th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comacine_masters
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Old May 8th, 2013, 12:05 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
That this thread is opened and based on a ludicrous statement of historical hogwash causes me to choose to ignore anything that is posted here, assuming further posts may be of equal or worse inaccuracies.
I think you have misinterpreted pretty harmless stance. The statement simply explains what was founding myth of the Polish People's Republic - official propagandist version and it's simply true. At no point it claims actual exlusive Polishness of these lands.

On the other hand I can't agree it's all purely German heritage, it's neither purely German nor Polish. Even if you can't read Latin inscriptions, you can give a try, especially here:

This facade easily proves it's impossible to draw a clear line between German and Polish heritage in these areas. Especially in Brzeg that was borderland city, actually with lots of Polish speaking populace for centuries.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #25
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Brzeg (nice video )
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Old May 11th, 2013, 01:29 AM   #26
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Example of German text from Grodków/Grottkau




And Polish folk song from Stare Siołkowice/Alt Schalkowitz


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Old May 11th, 2013, 02:30 AM   #27
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The most interesting thread on SSC! Silesia is the most beautiful place on earth... unfortunately, it seems world forgot about it. For a while I hope! Keep the posts comming it's amazing
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Old May 11th, 2013, 06:46 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post

Agree the gate is beautiful, but is it not fully German in period, design, engineering, and construction? This is one part of the entire region's architectureal heritage that is German in nature, culture, and substance. That Poles "won" the equity simply means they gained current ownership, not historic rights to claim intellectual property or artistic creation.
Here you go, Brzeg Castle:


"Firstly mentioned in 13th century, rebuilt in 16th century, the castle of Brzeg is the great monument of Reinaissance architectonic style. The builders were inspired by the castle of Wawel in Cracow, so some elements remind this famous place. In Brzeg, the part which is especially worth noting is the main gate decorated with the sculptures of 12 Polish kings and 12 princes of Silesia region. Over 150 years the castle was the cultural centre of the region - till the year 1741, when it was damaged by Prussians. Later, it was used as a tavern and barracks what slowly changed the beautiful place into ruins. Fortunately, after the second world war it was renovated and now the visitors can enjoy the climate of the renaissance interior of the Museum of the Piasts of Silesia Region. It is also advised to see the castle in the late evening or night, when it is perfectly illuminated."

http://www.topofpoland.com/index.php?id=2&top=45&t=1


That piece of fine design has nothing really Germanic about it. Poles historically took a lot of influence from Italians and the French. To keep it short, during Poland's Golden Age, Royalty would invite architects from these two countries to live in Poland and they were able to work freely. Many Slavic nations did this, including Russia. And I'm pretty sure, the Germans were influenced by the Italian and French styles as well (and I think the Italians were influenced by the Greeks ).
Anyways, I've always liked Central Europe the best, precisely because of this reason.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #29
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more and more palaces and castles are being renovated :

Topacz castle

before :



now :

















Wojnarów castle

before :





now :























Kliczkow castle

before :



now :



























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Old May 12th, 2013, 08:55 PM   #30
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Wow. These are absolutely beautiful restorations.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #31
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Chrostnik palace

before :





reconstruction :











latest photos :



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Old May 25th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #32
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Radomierzyce palace


before:







now :









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Old May 25th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #33
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Pszczyna















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Old May 25th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #34
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destroyed/damaged by war, devastated by Soviet troops, neglected by communistic vermins

truly amazing revival!
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Old May 26th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #35
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These are remarkable restorations.

Beautiful restorations like these are always a cause for hope. Thanks to all of the gifted and talented builders and artists and business people who have vision and care about the past and the present involved
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Old May 27th, 2013, 06:53 AM   #36
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Radomierzyce palace is absolutely world class in restoration. It looks good enough to eat.

Also glad to see the one in Pszczyna has some nice art inside.
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Old March 15th, 2016, 07:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
"With the westward shift of Poland the post-1945 frontiers of Poland were similar to those of the Polish kingdom of the 11th century."

Poland (1102-1138)


Probably you meant to write the 13-14th century in case of Silesia. In 1138, Duke of Poland Bolesław Krzywousty divided the country into five principalities: Silesia, Greater Poland, Masovia, Sandomierz and Kraków. The first four provinces were given to his four sons, who became independent rulers within Poland. The fifth province, the Seniorate Province of Kraków, was to be added to the senior among the Princes who, as the Grand Duke of Kraków, was the representative of the whole of Poland. For over 100 years Silesia was still part of "partitioned" Poland. Correct me if I'm wrong but Silesia became semi-autonomous state when Henry II the Pious (High Duke of Poland and Duke of Silesia since 1238) died in 1241...I might be wrong.

Henry II the Pious (by Jan Matejko)


Btw, Henry's predecessor, Henry the Bearded (High Duke of Poland and Duke of Silesia between 1232 and 1238) is considered by historians as one of the most prominent Piast Princes from the period of Poland's feudal fragmentation. However, all his work was destroyed only three years after his death due to a completely unexpected event; the Mongolian invasions. In general historians agree that if the disaster at the Battle of Legnica (1241) had never happened, Poland would have been united in the middle of the 13th century, and avoided the territorial losses that occurred.

Henry I the Bearded (by Jan Matejko)


Poland (1201-1241)


I've seen some maps from the beginning of the 14th century, which included Silesia within borders of Poland. Like I wrote before, I don't know much about Silesia. Could you tell me if all Silesian Piasts after Henry II the Pious have officially recognised High Duke of Poland?

Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that before WW2 in most western parts of Silesia and West Pomerania, the Polish cultural heritage (palaces, castles, cities, monuments, Catholic churches, cemeteries, art works, old books, etc.) was almost non-existent. For about 600 years Poles were developing (e.g. process of urbanization of Red Ruthenian's rural provinces started by King of Poland Casimir the Great in the 14th century) more eastern regions of Europe and in those places they left most of their precious works.
And in fact the original ancestral roots of Poland and of many of the Polish people could be even in lands located to the West of the Oder River, in what is today East Germany - in areas between the Elbe and the Oder Rivers. There is a theory that there was a large-scale eastward exodus of Elbe Slavs during the 10th century AD, caused by German military aggression into lands between the Elbe and the Oder, under the leadership of Henry the Fowler and Otto the Great, which started in year 928 (and in 929 the coalition of several Polabian-Lusatian Slavic tribes suffered their first major defeat in the battle of Lenzen). This theory seems to have received much more attention and more support from Belarusian scholars than from Polish ones.

These Belarusian scholars (for example M. Jezowa, V. Sedov, Perkhavko, Zhuravlev, A. Zalizniak, A. I. Kushniarevich, etc.) have proposed, that during the 10th century there was a large-scale eastward migration of Polabian-Sorbian Slavic refugees from what is now East Germany towards what is now Belarus, triggered in 928 by the beginning of German/Saxon expansion into Slavic lands between the Elbe and the Oder (campaigns led by Henry the Fowler and Otto the Great). According to many linguists, Belarusian language exhibits a higher degree of similarity with Dravano-Polabian, Upper Sorbian, Lower Sorbian and Kashubian, than do other East Slavic languages. Linguist Andrei Zalizniak also mentioned possible North-West Slavic (Lechitic) connection to the Novgorodian dialect, and Lechitic influences in the Belarusian language were also discovered by Zhuravlev's monograph in which he obtained large samples of 2,000-3,000 for modern Slavic languages (his main area of interest is comparative linguistics - a link to his book):

http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/..._Zhuravlev.pdf

This also finds some confirmation in written sources. According to the PVL chronicle, Slavic tribes of the Radimichs and the Viatyches were not native East Slavs, but were recent immigrants to the region, and of of Lyakh (= Lechitic; Western Slavic) origin.

English translation of the PVL here: http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a011458.pdf

And from wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radimichs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites#Lechitic_group

Quote:
According to Nestor the Chronicler, the tribe of Radimichs were Lachy (Lechitic) ... Due to some foreign invasion they moved to the East. (Original Russian text "радимичи же и вятичи — от рода ляхов. Были ведь два брата у ляхов — Радим, а другой — Вятко; и пришли и сели: Радим на Соже, и от него прозвались радимичи, а Вятко сел с родом своим по Оке, от него получили свое название вятичи.")
Also Constantine Porphyrogenitus mentioned "Lendzaninoi" (a West Slavic, Lechitic ethnonym) among the Dnipro river route Slavic tributaries to the Rus of Kyiv, locating them between the Kriviches and the Severians. He does not yet speak of Radimiches, but that's the correct area for them - so maybe those Lendzaninoi later became Radimiches (after their ruler called Radim as the PVL explains). The DAI discusses the situation of ca. year 952 AD, few decades after the beginning of the Slavic Wars of Henry the Fowler, and the battle of Lenzen (929 AD).

Also A. I. Kushniarevich (Russian Journal of Genetics: Applied Research, 2012, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 114-121) wrote:

"The migration processes of the later period could enhance the regional differences in the distribution of the studied molecular marker [sub-branch M458 of R1a haplogroup] in the population of modern Belarusians. In particular, a significantly high frequency of the R1a-M458 haplogroup in Ponemanye and Eastern Polesie regions of Belarus can reflect a movement of the tribal communities with genetic characteristics close to those in the local population into the Neman River and Pripiat River basins. Such communities could be for example Polabian Slavs, who left the territory between Elbe River and Oder River at the end of the First and beginning of the Second Millennia under the influence of the expansion of Germanic tribes [Saxons, etc.]. Toponymic parallels, as well as previous results of studies of linguistic and archaeological science, indicate the relationship between the Polabian Slavs and the population of modern Belarus (Jezowa M., 1962; Sedov, 1982; Perkhavko, 1983)."

And here Valentin Sedov's book: https://app.box.com/s/j5b27k8cvr4l415qcokb

A theory that Polabian Slavs emigrating eastward under Saxon pressure played a role in establishing the Polish State during the second quarter of the 10th century also exists in Polish historiography, although it has been criticized by e.g. Przemyslav Urbanczyk, who prefers to see the origins of the Piast dynasty in Great Moravia rather than Obodritia; as well as by Gerard Labuda who rejects all theories of external influence altogether, and claims that Poland was established as the result of internal development of local tribes. Urbanczyk wrote:

https://www.academia.edu/11888388/Or..._Piast_dynasty

"Much less attention was paid to concepts which explain the emergence of the Piast state by migration from the west of some Obodrite warriors who allegedly escaped from the Saxon aggression (see criticism in G. Labuda 2002, p. 50)."

But I've checked G. Labuda's 2002 book as referenced by Urbanczyk, and there is nothing there, which criticizes specifically the "Polabian theory". Instead, Labuda 2002 criticizes all theories of foreign origins of the Piast dynasty altogether - including also this one. The only sentence referring in particular to this theory which can be found in Labuda's book, is this:

"I am sceptical of ideas that the Polish realm began with an invasion by Obodrite knights."

However, if those Obodrites were refugees fleeing eastward, then we should rather expect entire tribes or clans - men, women and children - not just military elites. And it was rather - as suggested by Belarusian scholars - an eastward migration of war-tormented peoples (with some groups reaching even as far east as Belarus), not necessarily an armed "invasion".
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Old March 16th, 2016, 09:55 AM   #38
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This thread has become a great resources place. Lot of information I've pulled out for my content write up regarding Silesia, the land of dying houses.
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Old March 16th, 2016, 04:42 PM   #39
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Very interesting thread, please keep it up. As a Transylvanian this feels very familiar to, the main difference being that architectural heritage in Transylvania is of much smaller scale, its charm coming rather from the Saxon (Sachsen) villages rather than impressive castles, palaces and others of the sort. The migration of the Germanic inhabitans has been more acute and there are now a lot of completely deserted villages, for which the thread title ("land of dying country houses") feels so very adequate.

Also it is interesting to learn that the communist regime, instead of striving towards internationalism like it was supposed to, generated its own version of integrist nationalism (which is usually happening at the far right end of the ideological spectrum) to build up historical justification for the boundaries of the state in their current forms - which is exactly what happened in Romania too, except that in Romania is was completely ludicrous, with direct continuity being drawn from the Dacian state of Burebista in the BC times.
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Old March 16th, 2016, 11:04 PM   #40
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Quote:
to build up historical justification for the boundaries of the state in their current forms
And it would be enough for Communist Poland to build up justification for the new boundaries even on Adolf Hitler himself, who wrote:

"Denn kein Volk besitzt auf dieser Erde auch nur einen Quadratmeter Grund und Boden auf höheren Wunsch und laut höherem Recht. So wie Deutschlands Grenzen Grenzen des Zufalls sind und Augenblicksgrenzen im jeweiligen politischen Ringen der Zeit, so auch die Grenzen der Lebensräume der anderen Völker. Und so, wie die Gestaltung unserer Erdoberfläche nur dem gedankenlosen Schwachkopf als graniten unveränderlich erscheinen mag, in Wahrheit aber nur für jede Zeit einen scheinbaren Ruhepunkt in einer laufenden Entwicklung darstellt, geschaffen in dauerndem Werden durch die gewaltigen Kräfte der Natur, um vielleicht schon morgen durch größere Kräfte Zerstörung oder Umbildung zu erfahren, so auch im Völkerleben die Grenzen der Lebensräume. Staatsgrenzen werden durch Menschen geschaffen und durch Menschen geändert."

Of course Adolf Hitler wrote that as justification of German Eastward Expansion and Lebensraum in the East. But it was a double-edged sword, because exactly the same statement could also be used as a convincing justification for the shrinking of Germany, provided by Germany's leader himself.
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