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Old February 9th, 2016, 02:04 AM   #221
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And therefore you can not say that there are large intact neigbourhoods around german citiy centers, because they are not intact!
Erfurt, Halle, Leipzig, Zwickau, Görlitz, Wiesbaden, Chemnitz etc. Cologne also has quarters with almost untouched Gründerzeit buildings. I would even say every larger german city has those quarters in a certain amount and sometimes they are not in a very good condition (wrong windows e.g.) But they are of course remote from the main routs in the cities as those where the areas which were heavily damaged and mostly affected by car friendly modifications.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 03:15 AM   #222
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Keepthepast and Tolbert what are you talking about? There are more than enough German cities with extensive 19th century-early 20th century quarters. And it's basically just Berlin that went on a Entstuckungs (deornamentation) rampage. Other cities mostly didn't.
Even my city Trier which wasn't very big or important or wealthy around 1900 and was destroyed to 40% in the war has still lots of streets and quarters outside of the very city center with well preserved 19th century buildings.

An example:
Trier, Germany by Valentim Photography, on Flickr
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Old February 9th, 2016, 11:07 AM   #223
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Tiaren, i think we simply have a problem of defining "intact" and "quarter". You posted a foto of an intact street, but i know, that the whole quarter is not that intact, and in the case you shown even the other side of the street isn't
Same with most german 19th century quarters.
I dindt say, that there arent extensive amounts of historicist buildings, but out of the mass of buildings which where destroyed only few as whole quraters survived.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 02:22 PM   #224
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Nope, Tolbert, we do have the exact same definition. I posted this photo, because it was the best I could find at the moment on Flickr. People usually photograph the Altstadt of Trier not the 19th century suroundings. Sorry, if this doesn't perfectly show what you are looking for. There definitely are entire sreets (both sides) and even intact quarters of 19th century housing in Trier. Here and there might be a post war building in between but, come on, even in France or Italy you'll come across these. After 120 years there's bound to be some change in any developed country.
And there are definitely 19th century quarters in Germany that are ten times as large as Trier's. Ever been to Wiesbaden or Leipzig or Görlitz or even Dresden?
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Old February 9th, 2016, 02:55 PM   #225
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Nope, Tolbert, we do have the exact same definition. I posted this photo, because it was the best I could find at the moment on Flickr. People usually photograph the Altstadt of Trier not the 19th century suroundings. Sorry, if this doesn't perfectly show what you are looking for. There definitely are entire sreets (both sides) and even intact quarters of 19th century housing in Trier.
Interesting. So, you knew this image was did not reflect proof of what you claim, yet you used it anyway? Busted!

I think Tolbert is right when he says the definition of quarters, "street after street", and "large dense neighborhoods", are not being interpreted the same. Not to mention that lately, the 18th century intact neighborhoods claimed to be in abundance seem to have been dropped out of the discussion.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 03:55 PM   #226
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Tiaren, i know all these cities pretty well and as i stated just at the beginning, that its Leipzig and Görlitz where you'll find the most intact quarters at all. So we agree on that. Wiesbaden of course has extended quarters full of 19th/20th architecture too, just because i didnt listed Wiesbaden does by no means i deny that they exist there. I know it, i live nearby and love the city for that. With Dresden its somewhat different, i had been there often, but except from some areas in the suburbs like Löbtau and the Villa quartes between city center and Loschwitz which are in fact mostly intact i didnt had the chance to see intact dense 19th/20th quarters. So, you might be right about Dresden and i just didnt know because i never saw them until now. And for Trier, yes, there of course are a lot of widely intact quarters too, i know Trier to some extend but i was using "intact" as an absolutism which means intact without replacement of other stiles or mostly altered historicism
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Old February 9th, 2016, 05:03 PM   #227
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> As I say i like to see restoration of run down historic buildings, and one off rebuilds such as the Dresden Cathedral are also quite symbolic, but a large scale rebuild of an historic area does not sit comfortably with me. I find it very interesting how Germany and the UK have differing philosophys for restorations.

Much as I love German towns and cities, I also really like UK modern cities. I grew up in Coventry, which is the most notorious example of a beautiful medieval city that was rebuilt after the bombings in an avowedly modernist style. I am not the only person who thinks it is great. This article is fantastic:

http://www.jonestheplanner.co.uk/201...-coventry.html

I am one of the few people I know who also loves Bochum - which reminded me of Coventry very much.

I think the decision not to rebuild was in part a result of economics. We could not afford to. Ironically, we didn't benefit so much from US money given to Europe after the war, and also we still felt we needed to keep an expensive army, navy and airforce.

But also these concrete cities reflect the post-war optimism - and also they are a product of the new Labour welfare state, promising housing, jobs, and support for everyone. These new cities were about that - the promise of a beautiful future rather than looking to the past. In my opinion, this intention makes them very beautiful indeed! And even in the most bombed out cities like Coventry you can still find nice examples of medieval streets and architecture that are perhaps even lovelier because they are so few and far between.

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Old February 9th, 2016, 06:18 PM   #228
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Much as I love German towns and cities, I also really like UK modern cities. I grew up in Coventry, which is the most notorious example of a beautiful medieval city that was rebuilt after the bombings in an avowedly modernist style. I am not the only person who thinks it is great. This article is fantastic:

http://www.jonestheplanner.co.uk/201...-coventry.html

I am one of the few people I know who also loves Bochum - which reminded me of Coventry very much.

I think the decision not to rebuild was in part a result of economics. We could not afford to. Ironically, we didn't benefit so much from US money given to Europe after the war, and also we still felt we needed to keep an expensive army, navy and airforce.

But also these concrete cities reflect the post-war optimism - and also they are a product of the new Labour welfare state, promising housing, jobs, and support for everyone. These new cities were about that - the promise of a beautiful future rather than looking to the past. In my opinion, this intention makes them very beautiful indeed! And even in the most bombed out cities like Coventry you can still find nice examples of medieval streets and architecture that are perhaps even lovelier because they are so few and far between.
I respect your opinion and I understand that we all have different tastes and everything, but to me a way of life should not be dictated by the past if the people don't want it. Postwar urbanism is generally recognised as bad and unhuman, so by not wanting to change it, you're literally forcing people to live like that even if they find it uncomfortable and bad for them (a place where you live can affect you mentally very, very much). I understand that Brits are very proud of their resurrection after the WW2, but to let it affect your regular life on a such level is very dangerous, at least to me. We should always remember, but we also must move on for our own good, we should find what fits us best, and while I know there are many people that actually like postwar urbanism, I think they are a small minority compared to those that would love to live in an old building or a contemporary building. Of course, buildings that have become symbolic by now should be preserved, but others must be demolished if they are too expensive to maintain or if there's a lack of tenants. Also, Europe is a very rich place now, WW2 damage has disappeared from our economy a long time ago. If there is political will, we can practically do anything, just look at Hamburg and its old port, now one of the most beautiful contemporary spaces in the world. In short, preserve what MUST be preserved and move on to a greater future, whether it's reconstruction of our old towns, creating completely new cities, or having both, which I would love to see and experience and which wouldn't be complicated as there are many run-down industrial areas around our cities that can be turned into something majestic like HafenCity or Fjord City. At the end, it's on people to decide how they want to live.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 08:57 PM   #229
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So, if you look it that way, you could also say, that a lot of the old buildings that survived in the mediaval city centers, that where originally build in Romanesque or Gothic times, than got altered (modernized) in Renaissance and a second time in Baroque and afterwards in Classicism are still romanesque buildings?
Man, you just keep moving your goalposts to try and win this argument...

There is a huge difference between a Romanesque building that has pretty much been deconstructed and rebuilt in Baroque or Classicist style from a 19th century Historicist building that has (either due to war or idiotic modernization) been stripped of it's exterior ornamentation.

In the case of the latter, the form and lines of the buildings have not been changed. The structure has not been changed. The proportions have not been changed. In many cases the interior layout has not been changed. For the most part the most obvious change is the application of stucco on the exterior. These buildings could easily be restored to their original appearance in a handful of months.

That's the big difference between your ridiculous comparison with a Romanesque building that has been rebuilt into a Baroque building and the Historicist buildings we are talking about.

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If we talk about a building as a whole and not just of its structure, there are few left in their original state or even close. Despite the structure might still be from 19th century, their appeariance is not! And therefore you can not say that there are large intact neigbourhoods around german citiy centers, because they are not intact!
The original claim never mentioned the buildings being in their original state. And yes, their appearance is still extremely similar to their original state. As I said before, the overall shape, proportions, massing, and layout of the building still exists as it always has. It could easily be restored to its original appearance with a slight cosmetic change.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 08:59 PM   #230
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Except Spam King's original point wasn't the date on the corner stone.
Can you quote me on that? I never made that point.
Still waiting for you to quote me on that keepthepast...
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Old February 9th, 2016, 09:22 PM   #231
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> . Ironically, we didn't benefit so much from US money given to Europe after the war, and .
Great Britain got 26% of the Marshall Plan funds, substantially more than any other nation after WWII. The next largest recipient was France at 18%.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 09:28 PM   #232
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Still waiting for you to quote me on that keepthepast...
You did not read correctly. I never quoted you; I referred to the subject of your point; there is a difference. However, your tone of rudeness and arrogance in order to make a point doesn't deserve response, in any event.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 10:15 PM   #233
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You did not read correctly. I never quoted you; I referred to the subject of your point; there is a difference. However, your tone of rudeness and arrogance in order to make a point doesn't deserve response, in any event.
You said that my original point wasn't the date on the cornerstone. I never made that point so you were putting words in my mouth.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 11:48 PM   #234
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> As I say i like to see restoration of run down historic buildings, and one off rebuilds such as the Dresden Cathedral are also quite symbolic, but a large scale rebuild of an historic area does not sit comfortably with me. I find it very interesting how Germany and the UK have differing philosophys for restorations.

Much as I love German towns and cities, I also really like UK modern cities. I grew up in Coventry, which is the most notorious example of a beautiful medieval city that was rebuilt after the bombings in an avowedly modernist style. I am not the only person who thinks it is great. This article is fantastic:

http://www.jonestheplanner.co.uk/201...-coventry.html

I am one of the few people I know who also loves Bochum - which reminded me of Coventry very much.

I think the decision not to rebuild was in part a result of economics. We could not afford to. Ironically, we didn't benefit so much from US money given to Europe after the war, and also we still felt we needed to keep an expensive army, navy and airforce.

But also these concrete cities reflect the post-war optimism - and also they are a product of the new Labour welfare state, promising housing, jobs, and support for everyone. These new cities were about that - the promise of a beautiful future rather than looking to the past. In my opinion, this intention makes them very beautiful indeed! And even in the most bombed out cities like Coventry you can still find nice examples of medieval streets and architecture that are perhaps even lovelier because they are so few and far between.
Don't make it sound like Germany had some large scale reconstruction after the war. Most German cities are full of (cheap) modernist post war crap and are rather ugly compared to other European cities. Reconstructions are an absolute niche here too with a strong opposition from the left.
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Old February 10th, 2016, 12:23 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by PeterManc View Post
> As I say i like to see restoration of run down historic buildings, and one off rebuilds such as the Dresden Cathedral are also quite symbolic, but a large scale rebuild of an historic area does not sit comfortably with me. I find it very interesting how Germany and the UK have differing philosophys for restorations.

Much as I love German towns and cities, I also really like UK modern cities. I grew up in Coventry, which is the most notorious example of a beautiful medieval city that was rebuilt after the bombings in an avowedly modernist style. I am not the only person who thinks it is great. This article is fantastic:

http://www.jonestheplanner.co.uk/201...-coventry.html

I am one of the few people I know who also loves Bochum - which reminded me of Coventry very much.

I think the decision not to rebuild was in part a result of economics. We could not afford to. Ironically, we didn't benefit so much from US money given to Europe after the war, and also we still felt we needed to keep an expensive army, navy and airforce.

But also these concrete cities reflect the post-war optimism - and also they are a product of the new Labour welfare state, promising housing, jobs, and support for everyone. These new cities were about that - the promise of a beautiful future rather than looking to the past. In my opinion, this intention makes them very beautiful indeed! And even in the most bombed out cities like Coventry you can still find nice examples of medieval streets and architecture that are perhaps even lovelier because they are so few and far between.
As much as I personally tend to disagree with the preference for architectural taste as expressed here, I really like how PeterManc communicated and explained his views. Nicely done.
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Old February 10th, 2016, 08:16 AM   #236
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There is a huge difference between a Romanesque building that has pretty much been deconstructed and rebuilt in Baroque or Classicist style from a 19th century Historicist building that has (either due to war or idiotic modernization) been stripped of it's exterior ornamentation.
That might have been a rather harsh comparison, but after all i admittedly was asking a rather provoking question end never stated that this would be exactly the case in all aspects...

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In the case of the latter, the form and lines of the buildings have not been changed. The structure has not been changed. The proportions have not been changed. In many cases the interior layout has not been changed. For the most part the most obvious change is the application of stucco on the exterior. These buildings could easily be restored to their original appearance in a handful of months.
How many of those buildings did you see for yourself from inside? Changes to the internal layout are quite typical as is the removing of stucco ceilings etc.
One of the great things on the internal layout of those buildings has been the abillitiy to change them very quickly into several units or to change rooms inside a unit and thats still one reason why they aren so popular.

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The original claim never mentioned the buildings being in their original state. And yes, their appearance is still extremely similar to their original state. As I said before, the overall shape, proportions, massing, and layout of the building still exists as it always has. It could easily be restored to its original appearance with a slight cosmetic change.
Thats what i meant by saying that we have different definition of "intact"
it depends on how close you look, and it seems i tend to look a little closer than you i suppose, or its just because i earn my money with this.
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Old February 10th, 2016, 10:22 AM   #237
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Larger German cities have lots of good looking centrums, restored, like Munich, Hamburg and Leipzig. Some are not so nice, like Köln and Frankfurt. Just too much modern garbage.

What I would like to know is why they deornamented buildings in Berlin.
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Old February 10th, 2016, 06:18 PM   #238
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What I would like to know is why they deornamented buildings in Berlin.
"Ornament and Crime" by Austrian theorist Adolf Loos is giving you the major idea...
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Old February 10th, 2016, 10:58 PM   #239
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Not only him, Hitler hated those "foreighn stiles" too and very often, they just did it because a plane facade is cheaper to maintain...
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Old February 11th, 2016, 01:00 AM   #240
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And a cheap way to get a fresh, "new" look. Add a monochromatic new paint job and the building looks different overnight.

Similar things were done inside, as well, but much of the "ornaments" inside were just painted over. Decades later fine wood and brass were "discovered" under years of paint build up.
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