daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 4th, 2017, 11:02 AM   #321
Mr Bricks
Registered User
 
Mr Bricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6,349
Likes (Received): 891

Not wanting to derail the thread here, but it is astonishing how the destructive measures of the Allies completely slipped under the radar. Destroying the rich heritage of the Holy Roman Empire in the name of denazification is in my view eerily similar to the measures taken by the nazi regime to rid Europe of its Jewish heritage. Notably the Allies abolished the state of Prussia, and the East German authorities demolished the City Palace in Berlin. Do these reconstructions - especially in the case of the Stadtschloss - spark any discussion as to whether Germany is now making up with its past and wishing to bring back the memories of Prussia?
Mr Bricks no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 4th, 2017, 07:08 PM   #322
wakka12
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Dublin
Posts: 363
Likes (Received): 305

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
Not wanting to derail the thread here, but it is astonishing how the destructive measures of the Allies completely slipped under the radar. Destroying the rich heritage of the Holy Roman Empire in the name of denazification is in my view eerily similar to the measures taken by the nazi regime to rid Europe of its Jewish heritage. Notably the Allies abolished the state of Prussia, and the East German authorities demolished the City Palace in Berlin. Do these reconstructions - especially in the case of the Stadtschloss - spark any discussion as to whether Germany is now making up with its past and wishing to bring back the memories of Prussia?
Well certainly the allies committed unspeakable war crimes but they would not have occurred if Nazis hadnt started the war so I don't think they can be equally blamed but they are not the 'heroes' we portray them as in the history books.

And I believe that that argument was indeed used against the reconstruction project but ultimately they didnt win out. But really that is not in the interest of most people. Im not even from Germany nor have I ever visited and I still love seeing projects such as the Stadtschloss going ahead, I support it for the architectural value and heritage not because of any admiration of a lost empire or any nationalistic ideologies and Im sure a lot of German people feel the same way. Appreciating history , not trying to recreate an old empire.
__________________
wakka12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2017, 08:40 PM   #323
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
Not wanting to derail the thread here, but it is astonishing how the destructive measures of the Allies completely slipped under the radar. Destroying the rich heritage of the Holy Roman Empire in the name of denazification is in my view eerily similar to the measures taken by the nazi regime to rid Europe of its Jewish heritage. Notably the Allies abolished the state of Prussia, and the East German authorities demolished the City Palace in Berlin. Do these reconstructions - especially in the case of the Stadtschloss - spark any discussion as to whether Germany is now making up with its past and wishing to bring back the memories of Prussia?

The terms at the end of the war (and for the subsequent decades) were not 'under the radar'. Everyone knew, as after WWI, how much suffering, re-education, occupation, cultural/social changes, and financial remunerations were demanded of Germany. Of course, for the 'small' items such as style of architecture used in rebuilding, the rest of the world neither cared nor paid attention, but the programs were not secret.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #324
wakka12
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Dublin
Posts: 363
Likes (Received): 305

Also I don't agree that the measures used by the allies during the war went under the radar at all really. Maybe less so than the Germans, as they were acting in response to a war initiated by Germany after all. But for instance, the allies were widely criticised for the bombing of Dresden due to its lack of any military or industrial significance, it was also to the allies to be extremely overcrowded with refugees from other bombed cities at the time of the attack. I think the majority of people in the world would consider Dresden a war crime.
wakka12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #325
Rohne
Schwarzkutte
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Franconofurd
Posts: 821
Likes (Received): 354

every bombing of any residential city districts was a war crime, not only Dresden. But noone in official positions (politicians, jurists, etc) really cared about any time. And in the end, history is always written by the winners. That's why the bombings never where as discussed as necessary. Another fun fact: between 1939 and 1945 Germany declared or started wars against Poland, Russia, Balkan States, and others, but not against the UK.
But today, it's much too late for accusations. Nevertheless it's the responsibility of todays and future generations not only to prevent another disaster as the World Wars were, but to preserve the cultural heritage, keeping what has remained and rebuild as much important buildings as possible.
__________________
Rohne no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2017, 03:23 AM   #326
robertwood
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 228
Likes (Received): 273

Well said.
robertwood no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 08:59 PM   #327
The Eagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Halifax
Posts: 661
Likes (Received): 3491

And some pictures






pictures from Heimdall, thanks.
__________________
The Eagle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2017, 01:43 PM   #328
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,231
Likes (Received): 57902

Current roofscape seen from the webcam at the Kaiserdom cathedral, soon most facades will be finally exposed!


http://extern5.1000eyes.de/cam/dr/00408CC7F72D/
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Titan Man, cyril sneer, The Eagle liked this post
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 12:30 AM   #329
The Eagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Halifax
Posts: 661
Likes (Received): 3491

Some "Richtfest Celebration" calling for more and more roofs toped out.



The major in the back


The public interest is huge


The carpenters in uniform


And a speech for the owners and their house may live a long and prosperous life and will stand for centuries to come! I`ll agree to that

source Dom Roemer
__________________

erbse, Titan Man, TM_Germany liked this post
The Eagle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 12:44 AM   #330
The Eagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Halifax
Posts: 661
Likes (Received): 3491

Now some pictures from this week:

The white build on the right is old




The 2000 year old founding walls under the Stadt Haus


"Kroenungsweg" is coming along


Another Timberframe reconstruction will go up in the middle at the end of the street


On the left the "steinerne haus" survived the bombing and the right newly build and no reconstruction "Zu den drei Roemern"

pictures from Heimdall, thanks!
__________________

Titan Man, TM_Germany liked this post
The Eagle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 12:51 AM   #331
The Eagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Halifax
Posts: 661
Likes (Received): 3491

Now to the reconstruction of the Markt17, "Rothes Haus"
Was used to sell meats on the ground level. Always painted red.











The next house. "Markt 15" Used to be called " Neues Rothes Haus"


The old and the new red house side by side




And now Markt 13 called "Gruene Linde"


The building is younger. They started to put the roofs lengthy to the road in latter times. That way the rain would not run in between the houses and cause damage. Compared to the older Gothic Houses with gables facing the street.


Next we have two new builds called Markt 9 and 11 "kleiner Vogelsang" or the "little singing birds" Will be used as one build inside


Next comes the Markt 7 called "Weisser Bock". Will be a new build, too.



sources DOM ROEMER
__________________

Last edited by The Eagle; January 30th, 2017 at 01:04 AM.
The Eagle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 01:27 AM   #332
The Eagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Halifax
Posts: 661
Likes (Received): 3491

Next is Goldene Waage! The owners moved from what was then the catholic part of the Nederland. That is today known as Belgium. Between 1560 and 1630 more then 100 000 people moved from catholic Nederland to Frankfurt, at that time all part of the same Country. Already rich with business in the spice and sugar trade, family von Hameln where looking for a town with les competition and moved up the Rhine. Only half of what can be seen is road frontage.
Markt 5 Or called "Goldene Waage", for the golden scale in front.















At the other side Markt 8 or "Grosser Rebstock" The owners like to make the looks more historic. Therefore the renderings may be incorrect. On the street level we see the entrance to the U-Bahn or subway.






A not bad looking new build

DOM ROEMER
__________________
The Eagle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #333
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

Thanks Eagle! Great update.

The crowd photo above which you labeled "the public interest is huge" looks like the majority are gray-hairs and older. Does the huge interest include the under 35ish crowd or is the energy to rebuild historic structures concentrated among those who actually experienced the pre 1945 cities or knew of them from parents/siblings?
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #334
The Eagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Halifax
Posts: 661
Likes (Received): 3491

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Thanks Eagle! Great update.

The crowd photo above which you labeled "the public interest is huge" looks like the majority are gray-hairs and older. Does the huge interest include the under 35ish crowd or is the energy to rebuild historic structures concentrated among those who actually experienced the pre 1945 cities or knew of them from parents/siblings?
The vast majority of reconstruction supporters in Germany are 35 and under.( I am 35 ) Several studies show the biggest fans with 85% support are 18 Years old. The reason for the party is this "kind" of old is simple:
Young people do not have the money for buying here, therefore little involvement. Second, the event took place during work and school hours during week. Younger people are at work or and have little children.
The Eagle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 08:54 AM   #335
emperormadness
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 68
Likes (Received): 35

Great updates, thank you so much for keeping us up to date with these developments. I find Markt 8 to have a really good design, it fits into the old town quite well!
emperormadness no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 12:41 PM   #336
Mr Bricks
Registered User
 
Mr Bricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6,349
Likes (Received): 891

How much of the old town did actually survive the war? I'm thinking of both entire buildings and facades.
Mr Bricks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 02:15 PM   #337
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,231
Likes (Received): 57902

^ Well, regarding the timbered old town houses, of which Frankfurt had around 2.000 until 1944/45 - only a single one survived the aerial/fire bombings of the US/UK without greater damage. It's Haus Werheym.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...10-ffm-001.jpg

It features lovely wooden carvings and ornaments like many buildings there historically:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...eym_detail.jpg

A 3D model by Jörg Ott of the surrounding area (Saalhof) before WW2, with the Haus Wertheym recognisable at the lower left facing the street:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...t-Luftbild.jpg


More pictures: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...:Haus_Wertheym
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 02:22 PM   #338
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,231
Likes (Received): 57902

The "Frankfurter Trümmermodell" ("Frankfurt rubble model") at the Historical Museum also shows the magnitude of destruction at the inner old town core:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...jpg?uselang=de


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...kfurt_1945.jpg


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...kfurt_1945.jpg


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...kfurt_1945.jpg
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Titan Man, Mr Bricks, crusty_bint liked this post
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 05:01 PM   #339
Skyline.Fan
Supertalls 4 Frankfurt
 
Skyline.Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt
Posts: 863
Likes (Received): 294

Shocking, just shocking ...

I'm glad to see that we try to restore it in a way.
__________________
You are in a fantastical situation in a city like Frankfurt, foreigners always crossing each other,
heading into every corner of the world, inspiring wanderlust.

- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Frankfurt - Germany's ultimate skyline

Wiederschönmachung liked this post
Skyline.Fan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 30th, 2017, 05:11 PM   #340
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

That level of destruction is over 99%. Periodically, claims are made that suggest the bombing destructions were less intense and complete because the outer stretches of the urban boundaries and suburbs may not have been hit. The reality of 1 surviving structure and 2000 destroyed along with the model of the core inner city tells the horrific story of total loss.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
frankfurt, old town, reconstruction

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu