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Old February 18th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
What I'd like to see happen, though, is that moving conventional / long haul train to newer greenfield stations, and dedicate the downtown stations to HSR service. This way you get a more efficient operation at the downtown area which is convenient for the daily commuters, and the migrant workers / long distance travelers can also enjoy a much larger waiting room, especially considering many of them can't afford to live in the city core anyway, so the outskirt stations may be closer for them.
If the station is the terminal then that is fine but if it is not, this is not a great idea since it will add at least 15 minutes to the travel time. And if you stop in, let's say, 4 of these "downtown stations" then it will diminish the average speed. and as you wrote, many stations are rather placed perfectly for what is planned (speed, space, budget and future considerations) especially considering metro connections. So, a hybrid can be looked into for feasibility.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 06:06 PM   #442
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If the station is the terminal then that is fine but if it is not, this is not a great idea since it will add at least 15 minutes to the travel time. And if you stop in, let's say, 4 of these "downtown stations" then it will diminish the average speed. and as you wrote, many stations are rather placed perfectly for what is planned (speed, space, budget and future considerations) especially considering metro connections. So, a hybrid can be looked into for feasibility.
I know this is not going to happen, but more of what I'd plan it if we start from the scratch. Currently the city center stations will restrict train speed because of the legacy track corridors (curves, proximity to residential areas, share track with conventional rail, etc). If I had my way I'd have dedicated HSR stations in city centers, but very large HSR/conventional hybrid stations on the outskirt. Hybrid stations are not that efficient because you have two passenger groups who have different behaviors and needs. This is what's happening at Shanghai Station, currently Nanjing Station is undergoing a project to completely separate the two types of passengers by offering separate waiting halls, this is not ideal but as good as we'll get.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 06:14 PM   #443
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If the station is the terminal then that is fine but if it is not, this is not a great idea since it will add at least 15 minutes to the travel time.
Tohoku Shinkansen normally takes 26 minutes from leaving Tokyo to leaving Omiya Station, 31,9 km away - so average speed under 75 km/h. (Maximum something like 110 km/h).
The few trains that, for some reason, skip Ueno take 24 minutes to leave Omiya. So a saving of a grand total of 2 minutes, and average speed 80 km/h.
For comparison, the 29 km Shanghai-Anting takes 14 minutes.
47 km Guangzhou South-Guangzhou North takes 17 minutes
27 km Guangzhou-Guangzhou North takes 22 minutes nonstop for K trains.
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And if you stop in, let's say, 4 of these "downtown stations" then it will diminish the average speed.
Shinkansen has 3 stations in Osaka metropolis - Kyoto, Osaka, Kobe. And 5 in Tokyo metropolis - Yokohama, Shinagawa, Tokyo, Ueno, Omiya.

Note that no Shinkansen pass through Tokyo, so average speed is not so critical.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 06:19 PM   #444
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Thanks a lot!

But that´s a problem. See below.

But you said intercity network is supposed to go to places where HSR does not?

Zhuzhou already IS on HSR (the Changsha-Guangzhou one), Yueyang likewise (the Changsha-Wuhan one) and so is Hengyang (Changsha-Guangzhou one again).

If a HSR Changsha-Zhuzhou is under construction, how many stations shall it have between Changsha and Zhuzhou (52 km)? And what shall be the distance from Changsha "terminus" to nearest station in Changsha?
The line actually has 21 stops and is 91.5 km and is inverse Y shape rather than just a straigh line. It goes to the old zhuzhou station, and stops at xiangtang. Which is the thid city in the changsha-xiangtang- zhuzhou tricity area and holds no specialization except as birth place of Mao. (Changsha is the main city, and Zhuzhou currently serves as the industrial area for the tricity complex. The other stops, i would assume to be suburban place that would become bedroom communities. Which i don't think is good, since i have a personal preference for tight urban cities rather than a spawling meteopolis with lots of suburbs.

Also keep in mind, the main line HSR will have lots of long haul trips, zhuzhou to changsha is only one station over, however still occupy a seat that competes with passengers that will go alot further and require the passenger to buy tickets before boarding (which can be hard in busy travel seasons). If this intercity used metro card like system used in beijing tianjin, than its greatly simplified the travaling process and can competely effictively with intercity bus (the most popular way to around now) which current take 1 and half hours due to traffic.

And later it would go to cities not connect by hsr such as Loudi and Changde, then things can get interesting. As the western part of province lags the eastern part, yet the western part is very much resource rich and have lots of surplus labor and living cost is extremly cheap compared to Changsha. Also I would like to see the changde line go all the way to Zhangjiajie (only 100 km more). And it would allow easy access to the wonderful scenary of zhangjiajian national park. However, i doubt it, since the park already pack full of turist already.

I not sure what you meant by nearest termus to other stations.As i posted ealier, Changsha south is 5 km from Old Changsha, and planned Changsha west is 16 km to Old changsha, while the new district station is still TBD. The intercity line would stop at the old train station, which is right on the main wuyi road, and the hub for the cities bus system. It about 2km from main shopping area and 3 km from the commercial area. The area around the station itself is also a large commercial area, where it hosts the largest park in the city as well as the provincial musuem. The intercity rail is meant to ease traffic from other cities to Changsha, whch is primarily served by intercity bus right now.

Last edited by luhai; February 18th, 2014 at 07:59 PM.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #445
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Also keep in mind, the main line HSR will have lots of long haul trips, zhuzhou to changsha is only one station over, however still occupy a seat that competes with passengers that will go alot further and require the passenger to buy tickets before boarding (which can be hard in busy travel seasons). If this intercity used metro card like system used in beijing tianjin, than its greatly simplified the travaling process and can competely effictively with intercity bus (the most popular way to around now) which current take 1 and half hours due to traffic.
What will be the time by the HSR including stops?
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And later it would go to cities not connect by hsr such as Loudi and Changde, then things can get interesting. As the western part of province lags the eastern part, yet the western part is very much resource rich and have lots of surplus labor and living cost is extremly cheap compared to Changsha.
Which places will Changsha-Kunming long distance high speed railway go through?
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I not sure what you meant by nearest termus to other stations.As i posted ealier, Changsha south is 5 km from Old Changsha, and planned Changsha west is 16 km to Old changsha, while the new district station is still TBD. The intercity line would stop at the old train station, which is right on the main wuyi road, and the hub for the cities bus system.
I mean, these 91,5 km have 21 stops. So will there be stops from Changsha Old station towards Zhuzhou and Xiangtan that are still in suburbs of Changsha? What would the nearest station be?
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:36 AM   #446
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I know this is not going to happen, but more of what I'd plan it if we start from the scratch. Currently the city center stations will restrict train speed because of the legacy track corridors (curves, proximity to residential areas, share track with conventional rail, etc). If I had my way I'd have dedicated HSR stations in city centers, but very large HSR/conventional hybrid stations on the outskirt. Hybrid stations are not that efficient because you have two passenger groups who have different behaviors and needs. This is what's happening at Shanghai Station, currently Nanjing Station is undergoing a project to completely separate the two types of passengers by offering separate waiting halls, this is not ideal but as good as we'll get.
Ideally you'd want every major metropolitan area to have set aside a huge swathe of land for a rail station big enough to handle local/commuter/long haul traffic. And well, most were built long ago, and did not envision the traffic of today.

Shenzhen has a huge underground downtown station. But then it's barely 30-years old.

The best case scenario now is to eventually connect the downtowns and the various railway nodes with some sort of express service. But it'll have to wait, as there are plenty of still unserved areas.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:42 AM   #447
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Indeed, the closest analog to Japanese Rail system is actually the Chinese intercity C trains (Use of metro cards, frequent trains, passenger with no luggage, no wait rooms, access to platforms etc), rather than the regular long haul trains we typically discuss here. However, it does points to the need to separate station experience for the commuters/businessmen(typical Japanese passenger) and migrants/long haul visitors (typical Chinese passenger). The current HSR system is getting flak from both sides, crowded stations for the commuter and lack of luggage space from the migrant.
If you absolutely had to compare (and even then it's flawed), the role of the Chinese railways vis-a-vis migrants/long haul railway passengers has similarities to the function of the big American hub airports (minus the longer flights).
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:49 AM   #448
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Comparing present-day Chinese rail development to present-day Japan is dumb.

The Shinkansen services an island nation whereas the Chinese HSR runs through the eastern half of a much larger country. As such, more of the HSR passengers will travel longer routes, and will have to transfer lines more often. Thus you see oversized interchange stations like Shijiazhuang and Nanjing South serving (relatively) smaller cities.

More importantly, the Shinkansen services a mature market whereas the HSR services an immature, rapidly developing one. The unnecessarily big, far-off Chinese stations occurred in Japan--several generations ago. When the rural masses are moving into the already overcrowded city, you WANT to expand the urban footprint and extend and expand infrastructure. Technology may have changed, but much of urban development theory hasn't.

"It's too big and wasteful" = really dumb. The amount of track is continually increasing, the numbers of passengers is continually increasing. Even with the breakneck pace of construction, the Chinese rail system (both long distance and intra-urban) won't meet the demand for many years.

Thus all the talk about (good) city-center, established stations vs. (bad) far-away greenfield stations is meaningless. Tokyo station may be right smack in the city center, the other four 4 Shinkansen stations were originally greenfield. Ditto for Shinjuku station. The VAST majority of railway stations everywhere were built away from the center of the urban area. You just don't notice this fact BECAUSE cities have grown around the stations. Even the Osaka Shinkansen station was built away from the city center... in 1964. Same thing with the various London, Paris, NY, etc. Barring a sudden stop to the urbanization process, the greenfield HSR stations will not be exceptions to this rule.

Beijing and Shanghai's new HSR stations aren't too far from their respective city centers. Hongqiao links up to a major airport, so it's hard to (rationally) criticize its supposed inconvenience. The vitriol is usually flung at the third coastal metropolis, Guangzhou. Guangzhou South is ~22km from Guangzhou station. Far--and greenfield. But there are no other large, greenfield sites in the Guangzhou area. You could bulldoze an inner city area--but it's not exactly efficient. Guangzhou South serves the densely populated and previously underserved southern burbs of Guangzhou, Foshan, and Panyu.

And well, the old Guangzhou station has rightly been criticized as one of the most insufferably difficult bottlenecks. The station is overcrowded, the roads around the station are overcrowded, the sidewalks and the buildings are overcrowded. Why wouldn't a sane person want a reliever station to be built in another site?
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Old February 19th, 2014, 08:07 AM   #449
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Comparing present-day Chinese rail development to present-day Japan is dumb.

More importantly, the Shinkansen services a mature market whereas the HSR services an immature, rapidly developing one. The unnecessarily big, far-off Chinese stations occurred in Japan--several generations ago.
Was Shinkansen "mature" back in 1964?
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When the rural masses are moving into the already overcrowded city, you WANT to expand the urban footprint and extend and expand infrastructure. Technology may have changed, but much of urban development theory hasn't.

"It's too big and wasteful" = really dumb. The amount of track is continually increasing, the numbers of passengers is continually increasing. Even with the breakneck pace of construction, the Chinese rail system (both long distance and intra-urban) won't meet the demand for many years.

Thus all the talk about (good) city-center, established stations vs. (bad) far-away greenfield stations is meaningless. Tokyo station may be right smack in the city center, the other four 4 Shinkansen stations were originally greenfield. Ditto for Shinjuku station.
Yes, "originally". Shinagawa was greenfield "originally" when first Tokyo-Yokohama railway was opened, back in 1872. By 1964, it had been an existing station for 92 years. Yet Shinkansen was brought there.
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Even the Osaka Shinkansen station was built away from the city center... in 1964.
Yes, Osaka - but in Kyoto, Nagoya, Shizuoka Shinkansen went to existing Tokaido main line stations. Which may have been greenfield when Main Line was built, back in 1870s, 1880s - but which had been developed for some time by 1964.
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The vitriol is usually flung at the third coastal metropolis, Guangzhou. Guangzhou South is ~22km from Guangzhou station. Far--and greenfield. But there are no other large, greenfield sites in the Guangzhou area. You could bulldoze an inner city area--but it's not exactly efficient. Guangzhou South serves the densely populated and previously underserved southern burbs of Guangzhou, Foshan, and Panyu.

And well, the old Guangzhou station has rightly been criticized as one of the most insufferably difficult bottlenecks. The station is overcrowded, the roads around the station are overcrowded, the sidewalks and the buildings are overcrowded. Why wouldn't a sane person want a reliever station to be built in another site?
Where does the HSR go through in the 47 km between Guangzhou North and Guangzhou South?
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Old February 19th, 2014, 08:40 AM   #450
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The point is: With the exception of Tokyo station, these "good" city center stations were originally greenfield. Isolated and inconvenient, just like the new, supposedly oversized HSR stations appear today. A century or so ago, then-new Japanese railroad stations weren't so conveniently located.

Japan industrialized and urbanized before the technological advancement of high speed rail. The opposite case is true in China. There's no right or wrong.

Or you could just dismiss actual history and continue the idiotic assertions on page 15.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 08:52 AM   #451
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You think it's important for Tokyo Station to have a Shinkansen stop.

But because Beijing Station doesn't have a stop, there's something wrong? The Beijing HSR stations aren't very far away. As long as the HSR stations are accessible, I don't care if they're located in a legacy station, or some new one.

I guess you're OK with Shanghai station having HSR access.

I'm guessing you've never had the (dis)pleasure of going through small, hugely overcrowded Guangzhou Station. Most people are happy to go through any of the alternate railway terminals.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 09:31 AM   #452
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What will be the time by the HSR including stops?

Which places will Changsha-Kunming long distance high speed railway go through?


I mean, these 91,5 km have 21 stops. So will there be stops from Changsha Old station towards Zhuzhou and Xiangtan that are still in suburbs of Changsha? What would the nearest station be?
1. That will have to wait for time table to come out, as the line is still under construction This news from 2010 claims "24.1 minutes from Changsha to Zhuzhou and 25.5 minutes to Xiangtan".

2. Wiki shows Loudi-Huaihua route. It will go through Loudi South station.


3. Changsha Station is actually is not the termus station, the closest station from the Changsha main station is Kaifu Temple, which is still inside the city about 3 km from the center.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #453
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But because Beijing Station doesn't have a stop, there's something wrong? The Beijing HSR stations aren't very far away. As long as the HSR stations are accessible, I don't care if they're located in a legacy station, or some new one.
Beijing South HSR Station is actually build on top of a very old station that used be to just outside the city gates and next to Temple of Heaven, It's actually far closer to the city center than the Beijing West. If you look at Beijing station itself, it's actually in a very congested area near Tiananmen Sq. Directing a few hundred thousand more people into that area is just not wise.

For cities with a large population (let's say >5 million) and long history (let's say >100 years), piling everything in a "city center" just starts to be not wise. In city of that size, people don't really live in the center (a tiny studio would cost ungodly sum of money), they don't necessarily work in the center (Beijing's CBD is far from Tiananmen Sq.), and in the center the streets are narrow, buildings are old and infrastructure build for a time when the city isn't so big. (Just look at Beijing Subway Line 1) The first thing people arrive at the center is to get out, creating last mile massive traffic in the place that can least handle it.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 10:36 AM   #454
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The point is: With the exception of Tokyo station, these "good" city center stations were originally greenfield. Isolated and inconvenient, just like the new, supposedly oversized HSR stations appear today. A century or so ago, then-new Japanese railroad stations weren't so conveniently located.
Yes, 130 to 140 years ago, in 1870s, 1880s. They were no longer so greenfield in 1960s, 1970s when HSR was added to stations then 70...90 years old.
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Japan industrialized and urbanized before the technological advancement of high speed rail. The opposite case is true in China.
Japan industrialized and urbanized a lot after the technological achievement of slow speed rail but before technological achievement of high speed rail. In 1870s, 1920s, 1950s. But then Japan went on to industrialize and urbanize some more after the technological achievement of high speed rail, in 1960s, 1970s.
China built slow speed railways in 1910s and then urbanized and industrialized a lot after the technological achievement of slow speed railways but before the technological achievement of high speed railways, like 1950s, 1960s, 1980s, 1990s. 2014 China, like 1964 Japan, has slow speed railways that have been there for 100 years, stations that have been there for 100 years, that were on green fields 100 years ago but have become centres of cities because the station was there first.
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I'm guessing you've never had the (dis)pleasure of going through small, hugely overcrowded Guangzhou Station. Most people are happy to go through any of the alternate railway terminals.
These "any" include Guangzhou East. Which does have a lot of traffic, incl. terminating/originating trains. And is mere 8 km away from Guangzhou Station, unlike Guangzhou South which is 20 km away. And, unlike Guangzhou South, sits on a slow speed railway line.

These "any" also include Guangzhou North. 27 km away from Guangzhou - but sits on BOTH slow speed railway and slow speed railway.

On Guangzhou-Shenzhen slow speed railway alone, the legacy railway stations in Guangzhou are:
  1. Guangzhou
  2. Yunlu, since 1911
  3. Guangzhou East
  4. Shipai
  5. Jishan, since 1916
  6. Xiayuan, since 1975
  7. Nangang, since 1910
  8. Xintang, since 1910
  9. Shapu, since 1917
  10. Xiancun, since 1910
  11. Shitan, since 1911
  12. Honghai, since 1989
So, how is for example Shipai Station served?
There are other stations, too. Like Dalang station. But I cannot find the full list.

Does anyone have pictures of Shipai and Dalang stations and their neighbourhoods?
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Old February 19th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #455
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@chornedsnorkack
I made a very rough mspaint overlay of the HSR and Intercity map with station. So you can see the mainline HSR and Intercity HSR are clearly addressing different concerns even though they appear to go to the same places.
image hosted on flickr
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Old February 19th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #456
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@chornedsnorkack
I made a very rough mspaint overlay of the HSR and Intercity map with station. So you can see the mainline HSR and Intercity HSR are clearly addressing different concerns even though they appear to go to the same places.
Thanks a lot. And you can see the big problem. No interchange stations!

If you move to some bedroom suburb to be built around the stations of Changsha-Zhuzhou high speed railway. You can easily travel to central Changsha Station.
If you actually want to go somewhere else in central Changsha, you have the choice to get off in other stations, nearer to where your destination actually is. Like Kaifu Temple station.
But if you actually want to go to Beijing on high speed railway then you cannot get to Changsha South Station from your bedroom community on a station of Changsha-Zhuzhou Intercity Railway. Because your Intercity Railway does not get anywhere near Changsha South station - you have several kilometres to walk from any station on Intercity Railway to Changsha South.
The Intercity Railway Zhuzhou branch actually does cross the HSR, in a green field between Changsha and Zhuzhou that has no station on HSR.

Should a new station be built on HSR at the spot where Intercity Railway crosses it, so that interchange would be possible?
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Old February 19th, 2014, 05:07 PM   #457
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Beijing South HSR Station is actually build on top of a very old station that used be to just outside the city gates and next to Temple of Heaven, It's actually far closer to the city center than the Beijing West. If you look at Beijing station itself, it's actually in a very congested area near Tiananmen Sq. Directing a few hundred thousand more people into that area is just not wise.

For cities with a large population (let's say >5 million) and long history (let's say >100 years), piling everything in a "city center" just starts to be not wise. In city of that size, people don't really live in the center (a tiny studio would cost ungodly sum of money), they don't necessarily work in the center (Beijing's CBD is far from Tiananmen Sq.), and in the center the streets are narrow, buildings are old and infrastructure build for a time when the city isn't so big. (Just look at Beijing Subway Line 1) The first thing people arrive at the center is to get out, creating last mile massive traffic in the place that can least handle it.

Oh, I agree with you. The thread had gotten sidetracked earlier, with the typical "bad, large, greenfield stations vs. convenient, smaller, more efficient legacy stations" comments.

I absolutely despise going through Guangzhou Station. If people INSIST on trains going through the city center, and the city center was built way before the age of mechanized travel, they might as well demolish it and rebuild it along the lines of LeCorbusier. Expensive, inefficient, callous to the existing residents and architecture.

OR

They could build the station slightly further out. It makes more sense, but the crazies will still complain.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 05:48 PM   #458
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@chornedsnorkack

The point is, Japan had already built most of its stations and added capacity BEFORE the age of HSR. Their formerly inconvenient, greenfield stations gave Japanese cities the extra space to host the new technology. When Shinkansen technology arrived, it had more leeway in terms of placing it. And it's still not a perfect situation. You could easily argue for Shinkansen at Shinjuku Station. It may not be the absolute center of Tokyo, but it's still the busiest station.

As it stands, there's NOTHING to prevent supposedly inconvenient and oversized HSR stations like Guangzhou South and Shenzhen North from developing into coherent, functional urban areas of their own. Just like railway development before it, the new stations have growing urban populations and mass transit connections to the existing urban areas.

Critics/trolls complain about the unnecessary size/inconvenient location of these new stations because they are ignorant of urban planning history.


Guangzhou South is actually needed. Most of the growth in the Guangzhou area has occurred south of the Pearl River, and Foshan and Panyu are close by as well.

Guangzhou East is at capacity. It was built in the 80s, and has endless trains from Dongguan, Shenzhen, and Hong Kong. It initially WAS inconvenient, and now it's a downtown area.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 06:01 PM   #459
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This thread is getting rather off-topic - like I suggested before, perhaps starting a new thread on the placement and development of HSR networks would be a more productive place to continue this discussion.

Any more off-topic will be deleted, or if I feel generous, I'll make a new thread for you all to debate.

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Old February 20th, 2014, 09:48 AM   #460
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But if you actually want to go to Beijing on high speed railway then you cannot get to Changsha South Station from your bedroom community on a station of Changsha-Zhuzhou Intercity Railway. Because your Intercity Railway does not get anywhere near Changsha South station - you have several kilometres to walk from any station on Intercity Railway to Changsha South.
From the first map I posted on #320, as well as the dashed lines in the map I posted on post #333, which shows a connection line between Muyun station on the intercity rail and Changsha South. (Though I'm not sure what that connect actually means) In anycase, nobody is doing any walking, Xiangzhan Rd on the intercity rail is connected to Changsha South on Subway line 8 with just 1 stop in between. Worst comes to worst, Changsha South is connected to Changsha old with Subway line 2 with 5 stops in between.

Let's get back to topic before we all got strike down, here is a picture I took while waiting in one of the less glamorous train stations. (Something that's lacking in this thread, but typical to most travelers in China) In this case, Jinan East, a relatively tiny station that's right next to Daming Lake, and close to Baotu Spring and Thousand Buddha Mountain, but away from the busy downtown area.
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Last edited by luhai; February 20th, 2014 at 10:22 AM.
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