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Old January 14th, 2016, 05:10 AM   #2681
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I see. At the moment according to the table you posted London currently has 72 buildings over 90m.

The current number of buildings over 90m that are under construction, approved, or proposed is in excess of 140, a 200% increase, one of the fastest growing cities I have seen.

Assuming the new buildings have an average score of the existing ones that gives London a score of about 8,142, which brings it comfortably into 21st position.

However a large number of the buildings planned or under construction right now are in fact taller than most that has come before in London. This means the average score will in fact be considerably higher over the new 140 buildings arriving in the city which will bump London's score up even more which will likely bring it into the top 20.

Now take into account all the other cities are growing their skylines as well so in reality London will not get into the top 20 but will almost certainly hold its place comfortably in the top 30.
Edit on my earlier post. I just recounted and checked more sources and there are 170 buildings more than 90 meters in height that are under construction, approved or proposed.

This would bring London's score up to 9,122 not 8,142. Again just assuming average height points per building.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 05:41 AM   #2682
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^ How much of London is protected by sight line restrictions and other types of zoning restrictions though? As an admittedly casual observer to London's property market and how the zoning works, that seems like the biggest hurdle, not demand, basically NIMBYism.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 09:31 AM   #2683
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Edmonton's skyline with Stantec Tower currently under construction.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #2684
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Canadian skylines amaze me, even the smaller cities have great skylines. Wish european cities could plan their skylines in a similar way, with packed and dense core.
Canary wharf in london is based on the Canadian model and is growing really fast now. It was originally developed by a Canadian developer too and all the buildings have Canadian names. Soon it will be a sizable Canadian skyline in the middle of east london. It will be a unique view for europe.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #2685
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^ How much of London is protected by sight line restrictions and other types of zoning restrictions though? As an admittedly casual observer to London's property market and how the zoning works, that seems like the biggest hurdle, not demand, basically NIMBYism.
Too much. There are so many protected sight lines, especially ones involving St Paul's cathedral that restrict building heights and designs all around the city

Then you have the 310m height restriction put in place by the Civil Aviation Authority due to the close proximity of London city airport.

It's very annoying as it greatly hinders the ability for London's skyline to grow but it is what it is.

I always wonder what London's skyline would be like if it did not have these barriers in the way. One can dream.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 05:36 PM   #2686
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Masterplan for Jakarta Bay

In the first week of April 2014, a Dutch delegation headed by the Minister for Infrastructure and the Environment, Melanie Schultz van Haegen, paid an official visit to Indonesia. The programme included the presentation of the National Capital Integrated Coastal Development Masterplan (NCICD). In the past two years, Witteveen+Bos has worked on this plan together with Grontmij and a number of other parties.

The masterplan presents solutions for a number of problems affecting the Indonesian capital Jakarta, including flooding, soil subsidence, an inadequate water supply system and poor water quality. The document combines the proposed solutions with an analysis of the expected economic and social benefits.

Flood protection and urban development
When a public call for tenders was issued in 2012, Witteveen+Bos sought collaboration with other parties. This resulted in a consortium that also includes Grontmij, KuiperCompagnons, Deltares, Ecorys and Triple-A. Our proposal is based on a two-phase approach: flood protection in the short term, and sustainable urban development in the long term. The Dutch government (Partners for Water) decided to award the contract to the aforementioned consortium. The project beneficiary is the Indonesian government.

Groundwater extraction
Every year, part of Jakarta is flooded. February 2014 was no exception: floods left some 300,000 residents homeless and resulted in dozens of casualties. The water flows into the city and simply cannot be drained off quickly enough. Soil subsidence due to groundwater extraction is a major cause of the flooding problems. In some places, the soil subsides by up to 17 cm per year. But subsidence is not the only cause for Jakarta’s water problems. No fewer than thirteen rivers flow from the volcanic hinterland into Jakarta Bay, and growing urbanisation upstream is exacerbating the problem.

Densely populated metropolis
In 2030, some 80 % of North Jakarta will be located below sea level. The masterplan calls for offshore flood protection measures in Jakarta Bay, the only area that still offers enough room for such measures in this densely populated metropolis. The coast needs to be reinforced as a temporary measure, and a new enclosure dam must be built in the bay. The dam can be financed through simultaneous large-scale land reclamation. Plans calls for a new waterfront shaped like the mythical Garuda bird, the national symbol of Indonesia. Realisation would require massive investment in one of the world’s largest hydraulic engineering projects.

Feasibility
The plan has been carefully assessed for its financial, technical, socio-economic and ecological feasibility. The costs of implementing the various measures are currently estimated at USD 10 to 40 billion. The accelerated construction of urban sewer systems and water treatment plants is a key aspect of the plan. This will prevent the development of a dreaded ‘black lagoon’ of sewage lapping at the city’s waterfront behind the new seawall.

Phased plan
‘Rapid construction of a complete enclosure dam between the eastern and western end of Jakarta Bay is simply logistically unfeasible,’ says Leon Valkenburg, project secretary at Witteveen+Bos. ‘Just supplying enough soil, for instance, would require more dredging vessels than are currently available in the entire world! The volume of soil needed to construct just the western section is comparable to the volume required for the Tweede Maasvlakte land reclamation project near Rotterdam. So we have to remain realistic. Many factors will determine if this masterplan is to be implemented, and if so, how. The Indonesian economy is currently growing at an annual rate of 5 to 6 % and that is of course favourable, but we also need to take account of this year’s presidential elections, for instance. We have now prepared a sound plan to tackle the problems in phases. The reports from Jakarta are favourable, but I’m sure plenty of water will flow into the bay before a final decision is taken.’

http://www.witteveenbos.com/en/masterplan-jakarta

=============================================================

The Great Garuda to save Jakarta

Floods and Urban Challenges
Jakarta is sinking at an alarming rate of 7,5 (and some parts even with 14) centimeters per year. Without intervention large parts of the city, housing four and a half million people, will be submerged by the sea. The national capital of the Republic of Indonesia is choking in water and, in addition to that, in traffic congestion. The consequences of these challenges for the city are enormous.
These problems are so serious that there are doubts about the sustainable future of the nation’s capital, and even studies are undertaken to relocate the capital to another place in the Indonesian archipelago.

The Indonesian government is facing not only the challenge to flood proof Jakarta, but also to create a new perspective for Jakarta as the home of millions of people, and as the Nation’s Capital.

Joint initiative
In a Government-to-Government initiative the Dutch expertise and experience on the integration of water management and urban development is shared with Indonesian partners. A joint project was created to conceive a Masterplan for the National Capital Integrated Coastal Development (NCICD), that will facilitate and encourage flood proof and sustainable development of Jakarta.

The NCICD Masterplan proposes a Giant Sea Wall that will protect Jakarta against floods from the sea. Inside the Giant Sea Wall large lagoons will be created to buffer outflow from Jakarta’s rivers. To ensure the quality of this lagoon, waste disposal, water treatment and sanitation measures will be implemented throughout the existing city.

Great Garuda
The Giant Sea Wall development will create a unique and iconic image. Formed by laws of nature, sea water flow and efficiency, this elegant waterfront city resembles a Great Garuda spreading its wings to protect the people of Jakarta, the National Capital. This metaphoric narrative of the national symbol, offers great and compelling strength that is much needed for this formidable project to succeed.

The Great Garuda will protect Jakarta from floods from the sea. But it will do more. Much more. It will provide for a new vision on the future of the National Capital of the Republic of Indonesia.

New Perspective for the National Capital of the Republic of Indonesia
It will become an integral part of the development of Jakarta. The city will be become water resilient and the new coastal development will house 1.5 to 2 million people. Metropolis scale infrastructure such as toll roads, light rail and freight trains is integrated in the Great Garuda design.
The integrated development will relieve urban pressure (traffic, building, economic, etc.) on the existing city. Thereby significantly increasing the quality of life in Jakarta.





The Masterplan for NCICD is developed by a consortium headed by Witteveen+Bos (main contractor) and Grontmij, with subconsultants KuiperCompagnons, Deltares, Ecorys and Triple-A. The urban concepting of the Great Garuda is by KuiperCompagnons.
The Dutch Government (by Netherlands Water Partnership) has commissioned the project in cooperation with the Indonesian Government.


http://www.kuiper.nl/en/news/the-gre...-save-jakarta/

Golf island part of NCICD project
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my lovely jakarta by mata mayke, on Flickr

my jakarta by mata mayke, on Flickr
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Last edited by ilyas world; January 14th, 2016 at 05:46 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 06:42 PM   #2687
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London has a good skyline though. IMO, it's just not enough to compete with the other megacities
Agree. London is building a lot but there are about 10-15 cities building just as much or more. A top 10 for London in 2025 is not possible but I do think it has a shot at a top 25 by then.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 06:45 PM   #2688
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Originally Posted by stop that View Post
Canadian skylines amaze me, even the smaller cities have great skylines. Wish european cities could plan their skylines in a similar way, with packed and dense core.
Canary wharf in london is based on the Canadian model and is growing really fast now. It was originally developed by a Canadian developer too and all the buildings have Canadian names. Soon it will be a sizable Canadian skyline in the middle of east london. It will be a unique view for europe.
True but I imagine most Brits assume Canary Wharf to be an 'American' style development even though it was modelled on Olympia & York developments in downtown Toronto.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 07:01 PM   #2689
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Emerging Business District that will add up to the beauty of Metro Manila Skyline.

Bonifacio Global City, Taguig City, Philippines

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Old January 14th, 2016, 07:13 PM   #2690
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Quote:
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Agree. London is building a lot but there are about 10-15 cities building just as much or more. A top 10 for London in 2025 is not possible but I do think it has a shot at a top 20 by then.
I have been looking into this for a while now. The information I have gathered from a variety of online sources over time shows that London is in the top 5 fastest growing skylines in terms of number of high rise buildings under construction, approved or proposed.

This still does not mean it will get into the top 10 however like you have said. I actually think it likely that it will never happen unless all sight line and height restrictions are magically lifted and even then London has a lot of catching up to do.

But yes I would agree with you that London does have a shot at getting into the high teens by 2025.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 07:32 PM   #2691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlzerUK View Post

I see. At the moment according to the table you posted London currently has 72 buildings over 90m.

The current number of buildings over 90m that are under construction, approved, or proposed is in excess of 140, a 200% increase, one of the fastest growing cities I have seen.

Assuming the new buildings have an average score of the existing ones that gives London a score of about 8,142, which brings it comfortably into 21st position.

However a large number of the buildings planned or under construction right now are in fact taller than most that has come before in London. This means the average score will in fact be considerably higher over the new 140 buildings arriving in the city which will bump London's score up even more which will likely bring it into the top 20.

Now take into account all the other cities are growing their skylines as well so in reality London will not get into the top 20 but will almost certainly hold its place comfortably in the top 30.
with that info in mind, then yeah, I guess it could easily break into the top 30.

top 20? hmm.. pretty hard still.. all the cities in the top 20 are growing as much if not faster.. it will be hard to catch up. unless they become stagnant.

top 10, close to impossible?
these cities grew/added this much in just 7 years (2009-2015).. and all of them still didn't make it to top 10
Manila 7,155
Jakarta 6,165
Singapore 5,718
Seoul 5,383
Toronto 4,848
Kuala Lumpur 4,518
Moscow 3,490
Nanjing 2,437
Beijing 1,737
Osaka 1,487

In the west, Toronto has the best chance to break in the top 10.. and yet still having a really hard time doing so (even with a spectacular growth, Toronto has been stucked at top 16 for years). London would have to surpass Toronto first to even think of getting into the top 10.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:03 PM   #2692
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with that info in mind, then yeah, I guess it could easily break into the top 30.

top 20? hmm.. pretty hard still.. all the cities in the top 20 are growing as much.. it will be hard to catch up. unless they are stagnant.

top 10, close to impossible?
these cities grew this much in just 7 years (2009-2015).. and all of them still didn't make it to top 10
Manila 7,155
Jakarta 6,165
Singapore 5,718
Seoul 5,383
Toronto 4,848
Kuala Lumpur 4,518
Moscow 3,490
Nanjing 2,437
Beijing 1,737
Osaka 1,487

In the west, Toronto has the best chance to break in the top 10.. and yet having a really hard time doing so. London would have to surpass Toronto first to even think of getting into the top 10.
Yeah you make a strong argument and I agree that it is incredibly unlikely that London will break into the the top 10 in the next 9 years, maybe not ever. The only way I see of it ever happening is if the sight line and height restrictions are lifted.

There are about 170 buildings over 90m in various stages of the pipeline. One of the main points to take into account is the fact the average height over the new buildings will be considerably higher than the existing 72. For example the new 170 towers will include London's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th tallest buildings when complete. Assuming an average height over the towers as the existing ones when complete they will bring London's score up to 9,122. However knowing that the new towers will be on average considerably higher than the previous I would estimate that London's score will exceed 10,000 by 2025.

I hope this will bring London into the top 20 but obviously it all depends on how much the other cities are growing their skylines as well. I guess in the end we have to wait and see.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #2693
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with that info in mind, then yeah, I guess it could easily break into the top 30.

top 20? hmm.. pretty hard still.. all the cities in the top 20 are growing as much if not faster.. it will be hard to catch up. unless they become stagnant.

top 10, close to impossible?
these cities grew/added this much in just 7 years (2009-2015).. and all of them still didn't make it to top 10
Manila 7,155
Jakarta 6,165
Singapore 5,718
Seoul 5,383
Toronto 4,848
Kuala Lumpur 4,518
Moscow 3,490
Nanjing 2,437
Beijing 1,737
Osaka 1,487

In the west, Toronto has the best chance to break in the top 10.. and yet still having a really hard time doing so (even with a spectacular growth, Toronto has been stucked at top 16 for years). London would have to surpass Toronto first to even think of getting into the top 10.
It's sobering to watch Toronto stuck at 16 despite building as much as it has over the last 7-8 years. London will slowly move up the charts over the long term from 60th largest today. It will surely pass Calgary in 59th but it likely won't close the gap with Toronto one iota. London has very strong long term fundamentals but so does Toronto. I wouldn't be surprised to see Toronto's lead on London grow rather than dwindle. Despite all of London's growth the last few years, that's precisely what's happened: Toronto pulled even further ahead.

The top 10 (based on that quantitative study) is a very tough nut to crack. Only Chicago looks catchable. The rest are either so far ahead or growing at roughly the same pace.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:22 PM   #2694
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Toronto indeed has some very impressive buildings in the pipeline no doubt.
I found this article a good read also.

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/03/...rontos-skyline
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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:33 PM   #2695
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Toronto indeed has some very impressive buildings in the pipeline no doubt.
I found this article a good read also.

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/03/...rontos-skyline
That's a good site. I believe the tallest in that list just got a height increase to 340m. If all of Toronto's proposals get built the 90m+ building count will hit 523 up from 304 today (not including Mississauga).

I do think London will emerge as a strong #1 in Europe.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:48 PM   #2696
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Quote:
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That's a good site. I believe the tallest in that list just got a height increase to 340m. If all of Toronto's proposals get built the 90m+ building count will hit 523 up from 304 today (not including Mississauga).

I do think London will emerge as a strong #1 in Europe.

London I think is already number 1 in Europe and its lead will just increase as time goes on. Its main competitors are Paris, Istanbul and Moscow. Although I think they have some of the most aesthetically beautiful skylines in the world, in terms of average height London will soon leave them far behind. Not to say London's skyline isn't easy on the eye either.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 08:57 PM   #2697
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London I think is already number 1 in Europe and its lead will just increase as time goes on. Its main competitors are Paris, Istanbul and Moscow. Although I think they have some of the most aesthetically beautiful skylines in the world, in terms of average height London will soon leave them far behind. Not to say London's skyline isn't easy on the eye either.
Size wise, Moscow and Istanbul are far ahead. Paris is touch ahead leaving London in 4th. Obviously height is just one consideration. I also look at balance, architectural diversity, iconic structures, scale, whether there's a strong focal point, and how it all works together.

I do prefer London to Paris and Istanbul overall. Moscow looks great but a lot of their growth seems to be oil fed and monuments to the ego of oligarchs. That's just not sustainable long term. London will eventually move ahead of Moscow's skyline by every measure. London's weak point is the dearth of tall towers built before 1990. There are 100 years of skyscraper history absent from the skyline and that's something that will always be a factor.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 09:29 PM   #2698
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Moscow is the strongest contender in Europe in my "quick opinion."
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Old January 14th, 2016, 10:39 PM   #2699
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Moscow is the strongest contender in Europe in my "quick opinion."
I tend to look at a city's underlying fundamentals. Moscow's skyscraper boom is fed by oil money, London's is multi-faceted. Moscow could be Europe's #1 in 2025 but will money keep pouring into build those vanity towers? They do need to find occupants for new towers.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 10:56 PM   #2700
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I think the best skylines in 2025 would be similar to the best skylines in 2015 (Emporis ranking) with a slight change. Singapore, Sao Paulo, Chicago and Panama City would drop down a bit.


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