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Old January 24th, 2016, 12:28 AM   #2741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmilingFace17 View Post
That's harsh, man! Haha
He's right though, out of the major five Dubai is by far the tackiest in my opinion. NY, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Chicago all look so much better.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 01:03 AM   #2742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
He's right though, out of the major five Dubai is by far the tackiest in my opinion. NY, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Chicago all look so much better.
NY, Shanghai, HK and Chicago are all in a totally different league. They were already well established cities decades back and with a significant population to fuel rapid urbanization.
Dubai was still mostly desert with a few mid-rises 20 years back.

Given the number of high-rises U/C and proposed together with mega projects on the outskirts, it will be a completely transformed city by 2025.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 02:06 AM   #2743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaPa Riddlz View Post
Melbourne forumers do our best to co-ordinate with the the forumer who updates the Aus database on SSP (CULWULLA) but Melbourne's page is not as good or accurate as it could be(more than just a few missing), primary because Melbourne's planning application system is poor and stuck in the past when it comes to making plans available online. List below is a lot more accurate and up to date with Melbourne.

Gonna just have to wait and see what happens long term with both cities. No doubt the competition pushes them to greater heights.

Also, lots of to Toronto, from Melbourne.
That's a great list. So ~41 buildings built, under construction, or proposed for Melbourne. I have Melbourne pegged as the #13 skyline in 2025. That list suggests it's very attainable. There might not be much separating Melbourne, Toronto, and Chicago 9 years from now.

Come on Melbourne!
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Old January 24th, 2016, 08:02 AM   #2744
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Looking at these lists london has more under construction than melbourne/Sydney but less than toronto/new york. Now london is embracing skyscrapers, all the great anglosphere major cities are booming, great example to the rest of the developed world.
I've always been impressed by canadian/Australian skylines and i had hoped that when britain lost its showcase skyscraper city 'hong kong' in the late 90s, that we would have to build another one, but I was surprised and happy that this time we are doing it in our own capitol city, london. The Chinese can't steal that one from us lol
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Old January 24th, 2016, 08:19 AM   #2745
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Old January 24th, 2016, 02:07 PM   #2746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That's a great list. So ~41 buildings built, under construction, or proposed for Melbourne.
Yep, Papa Riddlz's list was what I was referring to, and it's 51 if you include the already built But then again if Melbourne is to rival the largest in the world I believe it still has a bit of catching up to do with supertalls and below 200m, and many on that list are still proposals/approvals so I'd like to see more of them turned into construction first. Still it's going to be a massive boost for Melbourne, the designs and facade quality and variation on many of its new buildings are turning out to be exceptional despite the fact that there's so many being built, and if most of what's on the list is built the skyline's probably going to look multiple times the size it is today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I suppose I should have said it started 25 years ago not 10-15 years ago. I do think KL will continue to surge. I hadn't thought it could compete with much larger Bangkok, Manila, and Jakarta but maybe it can.



Great post. I admit that I'm viewing these 2 from a far so the realities on the ground may not line up smoothly with perceptions from here in America. Despite Sydney's size, I view Melbourne as Australia's #1 cultural and corporate centre.

Sydney is, no doubt, a stronger rival to Melbourne than Montreal is to Toronto so my analogy only goes so far. Montreal may have 4 million people but it basically flat lined/grew at a snail's pace for 40 years and is only now showing signs of significant growth. A similar scenario just isn't in the cards for Sydney; it won't flat line like that.

Perhaps my affinity for Melbourne stems for my love of Toronto. I often look at photos of Melbourne streets and they're shockingly similar to places here in Toronto. You'll find a ton of Torontonians who view Melbourne as our sister city; or the world city that most closely mirrors our own.
Well to be fair Sydney did stagnate a bit during the last decade compared with Melbourne. Frankly the government we had during the time was horrible, when they had that rare opportunity to capitalise on the Olympics right in front of their face they instead chose to be complacent and held an attitude that essentially shut the city to growth and business, and made dozens of fancy plans of which few or none came to fruition. It was also at a time when Melbourne was improving by leaps and bounds, but thankfully Sydney has made a complete turnaround since and we're now in the midst of a dramatic effort to make up for what we didn't do back then, and just in the nick of time. It'll be interesting to watch how both cities fare over time and I'm actually liking how they're growing somewhat differently (centralisation in Melbourne vs decentralisation in Sydney, comparatively) - last thing you want is for both cities becoming carbon copies of each other. Though there's no excuse to keep Sydney's CBD restrained, right at a time when demand is through the roof and there has been a chronic housing shortage problem going on for years particularly around the inner city, so we're actually in need of more development there.

And I can definitely see how Melbourne and Toronto feel similar. Their city structures and topography seem pretty similar in general, gridded layout with straight streets of a similar width lined with retail stretching for kilometres and trams/streetcars running through (and I believe buildings that are of a similar age too?), so no surprises that you're going to have scenes and places from either city that are reminiscent of the other

Last edited by nameless dude; January 24th, 2016 at 03:21 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 02:28 PM   #2747
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Love Melbourne and Sydney, never been to Toronto.
Been to KL 3 yrs ago and it was nice, but i was not that impressed with the skyline except the Petronas towers, but in a few years it will probably change alot.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 02:57 PM   #2748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stop that View Post
Looking at these lists london has more under construction than melbourne/Sydney but less than toronto/new york.
CTBUH has 8 buildings under construction over 150m for London and 1 building over 200m. I'm guessing this might not be up to date then?

Last edited by mw123; January 24th, 2016 at 04:42 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 03:26 PM   #2749
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Emporis numbers for Asian cities are ridiculous. Moscow has more than 8 times more buildings than Shanghai?! Seriously? Shenzhen a population of 3.5million?! What data are they using? Special Economic Zone Population at the 2000 census?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Emporis hasn't updated its database in like 10 years. Why do people still use them?
And emporis counts buildings as short as 35 metres, so they're not important in a skyline. Lately, for statistics purposes, I prefer to use skyscrapercenter, veryfing with skyscraperpage. And skyscrapercenter is very easy to surf, I love it. For those cities you think they have some buildings missing, you can fill a form to add them, they check the data you submit and add the building to the database if it's alright (http://buildingdb.ctbuh.org/dataform.php), I have done that for some buildings in Shanghai.

For me, in 2025, Chicago, Hong Kong, Moscow, Shanghai will drop a bit, and New York, Shenzhen and Mumbai will improve.

Last edited by Victhor; January 24th, 2016 at 03:31 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 04:17 PM   #2750
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New York 200m+ buildings:


Completed / Topped out*

1,000 footers:

1. One World Trade Center, 1,776ft (541m) [roof 1,368ft / 417m]
2. 432 Park Avenue, 1,397ft (426m)
3. Empire State Building, 1,250ft (381m) [antenna 1,454ft / 443m]
4. Bank of America Tower, 1,200ft (366m) [roof 945ft / 288m]
5. Chrysler Building, 1,046ft (319m) [roof 925ft / 282m]
6. New York Times Tower, 1,046ft (319m) [roof 745ft / 227m]
7. One57, 1,005ft (306m)

900 footers:

8. Four World Trade Center, 977ft (298m)
9. 70 Pine Street, 952ft (290m) [roof 848ft / 258m]
10. 30 Park Place, 937ft (286m) *
11. 40 Wall Street, 927ft (283m) [roof 900ft / 274m]
12. Citigroup Center, 915ft (279m)

800 footers:

13. 10 Hudson Yards, 895ft (273m)*
14. 8 Spruce Street, 876ft (267m)
15. Trump World Tower, 861ft (262m)
16. Comcast Building, 850ft (259m)
17. 56 Leonard Street, 821ft (250m) *
18. Cityspire Center, 814ft (248m)
19. One Chase Manhattan Plaza, 813ft (248m)
20. Conde Nast Building, 809ft (247m) [antenna 1118ft / 341m]
21. Met Life Building, 808ft (246m)
22. Bloomberg Tower, 807ft (246m) [antenna 941ft / 287m]

700 footers:


23. Woolworth Building, 792ft (241m)
24. 50 West Street, 783ft (239m) *
25. 1 Worldwide Plaza, 778ft (237m)
26. Carnegie Hall Tower, 757ft (231m)
27. 383 Madison Avenue, 755ft (230m)
28. 1715 Broadway, 753ft (230m)
29. AXA Center, 752ft (229m)
30. One Penn Plaza, 750ft (229m)
31. 1251 Avenue of the Americas, 750ft (229m)
32. Time Warner Center North Tower, 749ft (228m)
33. Time Warner Center South Tower, 749ft (228m)
34. Goldman Sachs Headquarters, 749ft (228m)
35. 60 Wall Street, 745ft (227m)
36. One Astor Plaza, 745ft (227m)
37. 1 Liberty Plaza, 743ft (226m)
38. 20 Exchange Place, 741ft (226m)
39. 7 World Trade Center, 741ft (226m)
40. Three World Financial Center, 739ft (225m)
41. Bertelsmann Building, 733ft (223m)
42. Times Square Tower, 726ft (221m)
43. Metropolitan Tower, 716ft (218m)
44. 252 East 57th Street, 715ft (218m) *
45. 100 East 53rd Street, 712ft (217m) *
46. 500 Fifth Avenue, 709ft (216m)
47. JPMorganChase World HQ, 707ft (216m)
48. General Motors Building, 705ft (215m)
49. Metropolitan Life Tower, 700ft (213m)

600 footers:


50. Americas Tower, 692ft (211m)
51. Solow Building, 689ft (210m)
52. HSBC Bank Building, 688ft (210m)
53. 5 Beekman Street, 687ft (209m) *
54. 55 Water Street, 687ft (209m)
55. 277 Park Avenue, 687ft (209m)
56. 1585 Broadway, 685ft (209m)
57. Random House Tower, 684ft (208m)
58. Four Seasons Hotel, 682ft (208m)
59. Sky, 676ft (206m) *
60. 1221 Avenue of the Americas, 674ft (205m)
61. Lincoln Building, 673ft (205m)
62. One Court Square, 673ft (205m)
63. Barclay Tower, 673ft (205m)
64. Paramount Plaza, 670ft (204m)
65. 440 West 42nd Street, 669ft (204m)
66. Trump Tower, 664ft (202m)
67. Silver Towers South, 656ft (200m)
68. Silver Towers North, 656ft (200m)


Under construction


1,000 footers:

1. Central Park Tower, 1,550ft (472m)
2. 111 West 57th Street, 1,438ft (438m)
3. 125 Greenwich Street, 1,356ft (413m) [height change likely]
4. 30 Hudson Yards, 1,296ft (395m)
5. Three World Trade Center, 1,171ft (357m)
6. Tower Verre, 1,050ft (320m)
7. The Girasole, 1,050ft (320m)
8. 35 Hudson Yards, 1,039ft (317m)

900 footers:

9. One Manhattan West, 995ft (303m)
10. 220 Central Park South, 950ft (290m)
11. 15 Hudson Yards, 912ft (278m)

800 footers:

12. 425 Park Avenue, 893ft (272m)
13. One Manhattan Square, 831ft (253m)

700 footers:

14. 111 Murray Street, 792ft (241m)
15. 520 Park Avenue, 781ft (238m)
16. 55 Hudson Yards, 780ft (238m)
17. 45 East 22nd Street, 777ft (237m)
18. 118 Fulton Street, 700ft (213m)

600 footers:

19. 242 West 52nd Street, 676ft (206m)
20. One Seaport, 670ft (204m)
21. Three Manhattan West, 662ft (202m)


On hold

1,000 footers:

1. Two World Trade Center, 1,270ft (387m)


Site preparation* / Approved / Proposed

1,000 footers:

1. Hudson Spire, 1,800ft (549m) [height change likely]
2. One Vanderbilt Place, 1,514ft (461m) [roof 1,414ft / 431m] *
3. 666 5th Avenue, 1,400ft (427m)
4. Shvo Central Park Tower, 1,320ft+ (400m+)
5. 335 Madison Avenue, 1,320ft+ (400m+)
6. 15 Penn Plaza, 1,216ft (371m) [Stale Proposal]
7. Two Manhattan West, 1,216ft (371m) *
8. 1 Park Lane, 1,210ft (369m)
9. 41 West 57th Street, 1,200ft+ (366m+)
10. Hudson Yards Phase II Supertall, 1,100ft+ (335m+)
11. 520 West 41st Street, 1,100ft (335m) *
12. 45 Broad Street, 1,100ft (335m) *
13. 50 Hudson Yards, 1,070ft (326m) *
14. 340 Flatbush Avenue, 1,066ft (325m)
15. 80 South Street, 1,018ft (310m)
16. 42 Trinity Place, 1,015ft (309m)
17. 386 Flatbush Avenue, 1,000ft (305m)
18. Sherwood Tower, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
19. 237 Park Avenue, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
20. 341 Madison Avenue, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
21. 31 West 57th Street, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
22. Cetra Ruddy UES Tower, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
23. 1710 Broadway, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
24. 740 8th Avenue, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
25. 144 West 34th Street, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
26. 562-570 5th Ave, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
27. 145 East 60th Street, 1,000ft+ (305m+)
28. Sutton Place Tower, 1,000ft+ (305m+) *

900 footers:

29. SNCI NYC Tower, 950ft (290m)
30. One Madison Avenue, 937ft (286m) [Stale Proposal]
31. 520 5th Avenue, 920ft (280m) *
32. 29 - 37 41st Avenue, 915ft (279m)
33. 3 West 29th Street, 900ft+ (274m+)

800 footers:

34. 92 Fulton Street, 886ft (270m)
35. 20 Times Square, 856ft (261m) [Stale Proposal]
36. 138 East 50th Street, 803ft (245m) *
37. 650 Madison Avenue, 800ft+ (244m+)

700 footers:

38. 15 East 30th Street, 787ft (240m)
39. 360 10th Avenue, 756ft (231m)
40. 55 Broad Street, 741ft (226m)
41. Hudson Rise, 720ft (219m) *
42. Nobu Hotel and Residences, 709ft (216m)
43. 281 5th Avenue, 705ft (215m)
44. 12 East 37th Street, 700ft+ (213m+)
45. Five World Trade Center, 700ft+ (213m+) [Stale Proposal]
46. 451 10th Avenue, 700ft+ (213m+)
47. 6 Columbus Circle, 700ft+ (213m+)

600 footers:

48. Citypoint Tower 1, 692ft (211m)
49. 45 Park Place, 667ft (203m) *
50. 111 Washington Street, 656ft+ (200m+) *
51. Public New York, 656ft+ (200m+)
52. 3 West 29th Street, 656ft+ (200m+)*
53. 31 West 57th Street, 656ft+ (200m+)
...
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Old January 24th, 2016, 06:11 PM   #2751
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New York could have 45 supertalls by 2025. Insane! It will assuredly be over 16, very likely over 20 supertalls. And that's assuming no new proposals are revealed this year.

In the end I think New York ends with 30 supertalls in 2025.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 07:14 PM   #2752
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I'm very impressed with what New York is building. When I was growing up New York was always the city I thought of first when someone said 'skyscraper'. Its skyline was the gold standard so it's great to see them back in the game.... and in a big way.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 07:46 PM   #2753
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Yep, Papa Riddlz's list was what I was referring to, and it's 51 if you include the already built But then again if Melbourne is to rival the largest in the world I believe it still has a bit of catching up to do with supertalls and below 200m, and many on that list are still proposals/approvals so I'd like to see more of them turned into construction first. Still it's going to be a massive boost for Melbourne, the designs and facade quality and variation on many of its new buildings are turning out to be exceptional despite the fact that there's so many being built, and if most of what's on the list is built the skyline's probably going to look multiple times the size it is today.
'Moving up' is always a difficult task as one's trying to catch a moving target. Not only must one build as much as the target city, one which is often larger, but one must build more in order to close the gap. For a Melbourne or Toronto to build as much as say New York is a feat unto itself.

That said, Melbourne looks set to take its place as one of the world's great skylines. Sydney is more of a question mark for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless dude View Post
Well to be fair Sydney did stagnate a bit during the last decade compared with Melbourne. Frankly the government we had during the time was horrible, when they had that rare opportunity to capitalise on the Olympics right in front of their face they instead chose to be complacent and held an attitude that essentially shut the city to growth and business, and made dozens of fancy plans of which few or none came to fruition. It was also at a time when Melbourne was improving by leaps and bounds, but thankfully Sydney has made a complete turnaround since and we're now in the midst of a dramatic effort to make up for what we didn't do back then, and just in the nick of time. It'll be interesting to watch how both cities fare over time and I'm actually liking how they're growing somewhat differently (centralisation in Melbourne vs decentralisation in Sydney, comparatively) - last thing you want is for both cities becoming carbon copies of each other. Though there's no excuse to keep Sydney's CBD restrained, right at a time when demand is through the roof and there has been a chronic housing shortage problem going on for years particularly around the inner city, so we're actually in need of more development there.

And I can definitely see how Melbourne and Toronto feel similar. Their city structures and topography seem pretty similar in general, gridded layout with straight streets of a similar width lined with retail stretching for kilometres and trams/streetcars running through (and I believe buildings that are of a similar age too?), so no surprises that you're going to have scenes and places from either city that are reminiscent of the other
It's good to hear that Sydney is growing at a good clip again. It's far better to have all ones cities prospering rather than one big one pulling the whole ship. It was sad watching Montreal losing its way for so long but they are finally prospering again.

It never occurred to me that Melbourne was centralized vs. Sydney being de-centralized. I suppose that's one area where Toronto differs from Melbourne. Toronto does have a huge dominant downtown, but is developing a series of mini-downtowns throughout metro centered on transit nodes. One in Scarborough, one in Mississauga, one in North York, etc. We'll likely end up with about 7-8; a lot more if one takes in the whole Greater Golden Horseshoe (population 9.4 million). The GGH doesn't behave as one economic region today but it might eventually. We're in the midst of a $30 billion rail build out to link and integrate the whole region.

Toronto and Melbourne did develop at the same time and both had huge English-Scottish-Irish populations back then so they were built in much the same way with a similar architecture. Toronto's past was blue collar and industrial. One of its monikers being 'The Big Smoke'. It's only in the last 10-20 years that it's transformed itself into a white collar global hub. Hints of Toronto's industrial past are everywhere; you see it in the housing stock which is quite modest compared to what one sees in Montreal which was home to Canada's aristocracy and elite for most of our history.

Toronto and Melbourne are cousins. There really is no equivalent to Montreal in Australia. It's cousin is Boston. Sydney strikes me as a much larger and more cosmopolitan Vancouver: that exceedingly pretty girl/boy at the prom. Their demeanour is the same.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 07:53 PM   #2754
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Dubai's skyline feels kind of fake, if you know what I mean.

It's like it was built solely for the sake of being built. There is no real major history or cultural significance behind it, like a lot of other big cities have. It just feels like one huge vacation resort.
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Old January 24th, 2016, 10:09 PM   #2755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
'Moving up' is always a difficult task as one's trying to catch a moving target. Not only must one build as much as the target city, one which is often larger, but one must build more in order to close the gap. For a Melbourne or Toronto to build as much as say New York is a feat unto itself.

That said, Melbourne looks set to take its place as one of the world's great skylines. Sydney is more of a question mark for me.
With Sydney the demand is extreme right now, but whether or not it translates to a massive skyscraper boom within the CBD depends on if/when they decide to relax those frankly draconian planning controls, and the planning system would also need a complete overhaul (takes up to 2 years to approve a single large skyscraper, and quite often there can be delays). While there are signs that this is beginning to happen there's still a lot of work to be done. But either way Sydney's CBD is pretty much built out already whereas Melbourne's has plenty of room to grow, and while there are two very large precincts beside Sydney's slated for renewal I don't think they'll be able to accommodate nearly as many towers as Melbourne or Toronto. So you're quite right, I can see Melbourne holding a comfortable lead over Sydney in the skyline size department for the predictable future. By the way it's turning out Sydney just can't rely solely on its CBD and immediate surrounds to cater for the growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I never occurred to me that Melbourne was centralized vs. Sydney being de-centralized. I suppose that's one area where Toronto differs from Melbourne. Toronto does have a huge dominant downtown, but is developing a series of mini-downtowns throughout metro centered on transit nodes. One in Scarborough, one in Mississauga, one in North York, etc. We'll likely end up with about 7-8; a lot more if one takes in the whole Greater Golden Horseshoe (population 9.4 million). The GGH doesn't behave as one economic region today but it might eventually. We're in the midst of a $30 billion rail build out to link and integrate the whole region.
Note one of my words, comparatively (to Sydney) I think there's still quite a fair amount of development around Melbourne's suburbs and some of its suburban nodes are already getting or are going to get towers and grow a skyline very soon (see South Yarra, Box Hill, Footscray etc). According to this (page 8), around 39% of the total number of cranes in Melbourne are located in/around the CBD with the rest spread around the metro, so if that's any indication. It's just that it seems Sydney's construction overall is spread more around the metro while Melbourne is building much more towers around the inner city. With Sydney its suburbs are going through a dramatic transformation, apartments are being proposed/built in spades in literally every part of the metro, there's rezonings for high density happening everywhere and dozens of nodes which are building high rises and apartments or are slated for them, and in quite a few places we're seeing entire blocks of detached houses being demolished all at once and replaced with apartments.

Here's the 100m+ list for Sydney if you're interested, though just keep in mind the development pattern we're seeing here is that the vast majority of what's happening is in the form of low-high(er) rise buildings below 100m in height (5-25 storeys seems to be the norm) with only an occasional development or two going over that 100m mark, so the list isn't really a complete reflection of what's going on around here.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1541

It's a cute little list at best compared with some of the other cities here lol, but note that even when you're looking only at the 100m+ proposals/construction alone, only a fraction of them are located in the CBD.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Toronto and Melbourne are cousins. There really is no equivalent to Montreal in Australia. It's cousin is Boston. Sydney strikes me as a much larger and more cosmopolitan Vancouver: that exceedingly pretty girl/boy at the prom. Their demeanour is the same.
I never really got that Sydney/Vancouver comparison apart from their natural setting, but my obviously biased brain would like to think that Sydney is more of an equivalent to San Francisco But apart from that pedantic little rivalry always going on between Sydney and Melbourne (as can be observed, comically at times in the ozscrapers national section ), I think the overall consensus is that Sydney, like Melbourne has more than its fair share of 'culture and sophistication', and grit. But I can see how some outsiders can be led into thinking what you might be alluding to. It's the marketing, and Sydney is always marketed for its harbour and beaches and that fancy white building with sails on top, and everything else comes as second fiddle to those. Melbourne otoh is often marketed for 'culture' (oh, and its cups of coffee too), but the truth is if you spend a good amount of time in both cities beyond the usual tourist hotspots and get to know them, you'd likely find that they have their fair share of both. And I think it is pretty safe to say that Sydney does feel rather established and 'international', for Australian standards. Though in the end of course it all comes down to personal preference, and that's completely fine

Anyways it's good too see Canada's cities growing very nicely as well and particularly with Toronto it's always interesting to see its skyline growing by the year. I've noticed that Toronto is beginning to get an increasing amount of attention as of late so you guys can certainly be proud of what you're achieving.

Last edited by nameless dude; January 25th, 2016 at 09:22 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2016, 10:00 AM   #2756
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Old January 25th, 2016, 10:47 PM   #2757
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Old January 26th, 2016, 12:12 AM   #2758
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Old January 26th, 2016, 12:24 AM   #2759
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Originally Posted by nameless dude View Post
With Sydney the demand is extreme right now, but whether or not it translates to a massive skyscraper boom within the CBD depends on if/when they decide to relax those frankly draconian planning controls, and the planning system would also need a complete overhaul (takes up to 2 years to approve a single large skyscraper, and quite often there can be delays). While there are signs that this is beginning to happen there's still a lot of work to be done. But either way Sydney's CBD is pretty much built out already whereas Melbourne's has plenty of room to grow, and while there are two very large precincts beside Sydney's slated for renewal I don't think they'll be able to accommodate nearly as many towers as Melbourne or Toronto. So you're quite right, I can see Melbourne holding a comfortable lead over Sydney in the skyline size department for the predictable future. By the way it's turning out Sydney just can't rely solely on its CBD and immediate surrounds to cater for the growth.
Money always wins the day eventually. If demand dictates, the planning department (in Sydney) will have to accommodate it because there's too much at stake to let the system back up like that.

Am I correct in saying that it's hard to build anything over 250m in Sydney? Montreal is a similar case but the upper most limit is around 205m (the height of Mont Royal). They've bowed out of the height game and are content on building a shorter skyline. They will end up with an expansive one as a result so it's a decent trade off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless dude View Post
Note one of my words, comparatively (to Sydney) I think there's still quite a fair amount of development around Melbourne's suburbs and some of its suburban nodes are already getting or are going to get towers and grow a skyline very soon (see South Yarra, Box Hill, Footscray etc). According to this (page 8), around 39% of the total number of cranes in Melbourne are located in/around the CBD with the rest spread around the metro, so if that's any indication. It's just that it seems Sydney's construction overall is spread more around the metro while Melbourne is building much more towers around the inner city. With Sydney its suburbs are going through a dramatic transformation, apartments are being proposed/built in spades in literally every part of the metro, there's rezonings for high density happening everywhere and dozens of nodes which are building high rises and apartments or are slated for them, and in quite a few places we're seeing entire blocks of detached houses being demolished all at once and replaced with apartments.

Here's the 100m+ list for Sydney if you're interested, though just keep in mind the development pattern we're seeing here is that the vast majority of what's happening is in the form of low-high(er) rise buildings below 100m in height (5-25 storeys seems to be the norm) with only an occasional development or two going over that 100m mark, so the list isn't really a complete reflection of what's going on around here.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1541

It's a cute little list at best compared with some of the other cities here lol, but note that even when you're looking only at the 100m+ proposals/construction alone, only a fraction of them are located in the CBD.
Looks like both Sydney and Melbourne are starting to hit their stride. Cities reach a tipping point when they reach a certain size. In countries like Australia and Canada that seems to be 1.2-1.5 million. Cities here seem to sprawl out till they hit that size; then they start urbanizing, densifying, and going vertical. One could make a similar argument for countries.

One quality peculiar to both Canada and Australia (in the West) is that we lacked the size and heft domestically to fully capitalize on our potential. I've noticed a sea change in that regard over the last 10 years in Canada. In every area imaginable things are starting to come together: formation of globally competitive industry clusters, cultural output, confidence in our place in the world, etc. 148 years after our founding, we're finally starting to fire on all cylinders. I sense a similar thing happening in Australia.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless dude View Post
I never really got that Sydney/Vancouver comparison apart from their natural setting, but my obviously biased brain would like to think that Sydney is more of an equivalent to San Francisco But apart from that pedantic little rivalry always going on between Sydney and Melbourne (as can be observed, comically at times in the ozscrapers national section ), I think the overall consensus is that Sydney, like Melbourne has more than its fair share of 'culture and sophistication', and grit. But I can see how some outsiders can be led into thinking what you might be alluding to. It's the marketing, and Sydney is always marketed for its harbour and beaches and that fancy white building with sails on top, and everything else comes as second fiddle to those. Melbourne otoh is often marketed for 'culture' (oh, and its cups of coffee too), but the truth is if you spend a good amount of time in both cities beyond the usual tourist hotspots and get to know them, you'd likely find that they have their fair share of both. And I think it is pretty safe to say that Sydney does feel rather established and 'international', for Australian standards. Though in the end of course it all comes down to personal preference, and that's completely fine

Anyways it's good too see Canada's cities growing very nicely as well and particularly with Toronto it's always interesting to see its skyline growing by the year. I've noticed that Toronto is beginning to get an increasing amount of attention as of late so you guys can certainly be proud of what you're achieving.
The Sydney - Vancouver comparison isn't about status in the world but more about demeanour. Sydney is head and shoulders above Vancouver by most measures, but I think they'd be remarkably similar if Vancouver had 4.5 million people.

We have a natural inclination to compare ourselves to the perceived thing (or city) one rung up the ladder. It's not always the most accurate comparison. A lot of Torontonians used to like comparing ourselves to Chicago. Now that we're withing spitting distance of them (by size) and ahead of them by many other measures a curious thing happened. We didn't start looking to New York, the perceived next city up the ladder. Self confidence replaced self doubt and the need for outside validation is largely evaporating. I think 10 years ago Torontonians would have been slightly insulted to compare our city to Melbourne simply because it was smaller. Not any more.

Regarding Toronto's profile internationally we're cognizant that its influence now stretches beyond Canada. We sense it happening but it's still hard to determine to what extent. It took almost 2 centuries to lay the foundation upon which its all built but Toronto does seem to be moving up in the world. I used to feel envious when I traveled to other global cities but that rarely happens any more. Envy has turned to mutual admiration. That speaks volumes.

Sydney - San Francisco? There are similarities I suppose.
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Last edited by isaidso; January 26th, 2016 at 05:49 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2016, 03:30 AM   #2760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
The Sydney - Vancouver comparison isn't about status in the world but more about demeanour. Sydney is head and shoulders above Vancouver by most measures, but I think they'd be remarkably similar if Vancouver had 4.5 million people.
Indeed, I don't understand why Vancouver is compared to Sydney. Totally different size and clout.

Vancouver is a mid-size city with 600 thousand people in its proper and 2.3 million people in the metro area, while Sydney is a relatively big city with 4,840,600 people.

Canadian and OZ cities are kinda similar, but size and clout-wise, this is more accurate.

Melbourne & Toronto = Awesome skylines!
Sydney & Montreal = party, anyone?
Brisbane & Vancouver = surfing or snowboarding?
Perth & Calgary = iron ore or oil?
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