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Old January 12th, 2014, 04:01 AM   #1061
Manitopiaaa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson11 View Post
without a doubt Miami, Toronto, and NYC are the ones to watch in NA. A few other cities may spawn supertalls but those three will have the most development
Chicago too: 14 Proposals over 200m. That would push Chicago to 41 skyscrapers, 3 more than Toronto and certainly above Miami
130 North Franklin
150 North Riverside
625 West Monroe
Central Station
Chicago Spire Site
NAR Tower
Old Post Office Redevelopment x3 Supertalls
Optima Center II
Riverpoint
Roosevelt and Michigan Development
Wolf Point North Tower
Wolf Point South Tower
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Old January 12th, 2014, 09:11 PM   #1062
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That's very impressive. I believe the corresponding figure for Toronto is only 38.

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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Chicago too: 14 Proposals over 200m. That would push Chicago to 41 skyscrapers, 3 more than Toronto and certainly above Miami
130 North Franklin
150 North Riverside
625 West Monroe
Central Station
Chicago Spire Site
NAR Tower
Old Post Office Redevelopment x3 Supertalls
Optima Center II
Riverpoint
Roosevelt and Michigan Development
Wolf Point North Tower
Wolf Point South Tower
Where do you guys get your numbers? Unless Emporis is way off, I am counting the following totals for 200m+ (656ft+):

Chicago - 32 (27 completed and 5 proposed)
Toronto - 29 (18 completed & u/c; 11 proposed)

Now if you are looking at 600 ft+ then i am counting -

Chicago - 54 (47 completed & u/c; 7 proposed)
Toronto - 39 (24 completed & u/c; 15 proposed)

So if all the proposals get built Toronto will substantially reduce the gap in the 200m category, but will still be quite a bit behind in 600 footers.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 09:46 PM   #1063
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Where do you guys get your numbers? Unless Emporis is way off, I am counting the following totals for 200m+ (656ft+):

Chicago - 32 (27 completed and 5 proposed)
Toronto - 29 (18 completed & u/c; 11 proposed)

Now if you are looking at 600 ft+ then i am counting -

Chicago - 54 (47 completed & u/c; 7 proposed)
Toronto - 39 (24 completed & u/c; 15 proposed)

So if all the proposals get built Toronto will substantially reduce the gap in the 200m category, but will still be quite a bit behind in 600 footers.
Emporis is wayyyyy off. They are garbage. I don't think they've updated their database since 2005. Every SSC forumer would tell you that. I use SkyscraperCenter for Completed and U/C skyscrapers and then SSC search for proposals.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:13 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Emporis is wayyyyy off. They are garbage. I don't think they've updated their database since 2005. Every SSC forumer would tell you that. I use SkyscraperCenter for Completed and U/C skyscrapers and then SSC search for proposals.
You mean Emporis is way off on proposed? Because for completed and u/c Emporis and SkyscraperCenter are showing basically the same totals.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #1065
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I'll check out the 200m+ (656ft) since 600ft is a very arbitrary number whereas 200m is the SSC standard.

Chicago
1. Willis Tower 1,451ft
2. Trump International Hotel and Tower 1,389ft
3. Aon Center 1,136ft
4. John Hancock Center 1,127ft
5. Franklin Center North Center 1,007ft
6. Two Prudential Plaza 995ft
7. 311 South Wacker Drive 961ft
8. 900 North Michigan 871ft
9. Water Tower Place 859ft
10. Aqua 859ft
11. Chase Tower 850ft
12. Park Tower 844ft
13. The Legacy at Millennium Park 822ft
14. 300 North LaSalle 784ft
15. Three First National Plaza 767ft
16. Chicago Title and Trust Center 755ft
17. Blue Cross Blue Shield Tower 743ft
18. One Museum Park 734ft
U/C #28. River Point 732ft
19. Olympia Centre 731ft
20. 330 North Wabash 695ft
21. Waldorf Astoria Chicago 686ft
22. 111 South Wacker Drive 681ft
23. 181 West Madison Street 680ft
24. Hyatt Center 679ft
25. One Magnificent Mile 673ft
26. 340 on the Park 672ft
27. 77 West Wacker Drive 668ft

So 28 Completed & U/C plus 13 proposals (outlined above) = 41 Skyscrapers.

Toronto
1. First Canadian Place 978ft
2. Trump International Hotel and Tower 908ft
3. Scotia Plaza 902ft
U/C #12 Aura at College Park 892ft
4. TD Canada Trust Tower 856ft
U/C #13 Number One Bloor East 844ft
5. Commerce Court West 784ft
U/C #14 Ice Condos at York Centre 2 768ft
U/C #15 Harbour Plaza Residences East 764ft
U/C #16 Harbour Plaza Residences West 735ft
6. Toronto-Dominin Tower 731ft
7. Bay Adelaide Centre West Tower 715ft
8. Shangri-La Toronto 702ft
9. Ritz-Carlton Toronto 684ft
10. Bay Wellington Tower 679ft
T/O #17 L Tower 673ft
11. Four Seasons Hotel and Residences West 669ft
U/C #18 88 Scott Centre 669ft
T/O #19 Ice Condos at York Centre 1 663ft

So 19 Completed & U/C plus 19 Proposals (see here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=986) = 38 Skyscrapers

From 2000 to 2014 Toronto completed (incl. T/O) 7 Skyscrapers (#2, 7, 8, 9, 11, 17, & 18 above). From 2000 to 2014 Chicago completed 11 Skyscrapers (#2, #10, #12, #13, #14, #17, #18, #21, #22, #24, #26). So, contrary to the whole 'Toronto iz the greatest skyline in the world eva!' crowd, Chicago actually added more skyscrapers and put even more space with Toronto. You don't hear that here on SSC As for the proposals, I doubt the Old Post Development Supertalls turn into anything so that's -3 from Chicago. I also don't think the Gehry Towers get anywhere in Toronto so that's -3 from Toronto. All 6 sites will accomodate something large but nothing short-term. I also think it's dubious to rely on 'proposals' lest we remember the Chicago Spire and the Oxford Place Supertalls. At best Chicago will have 41 v. 38 for Toronto. More likely is Chicago 38 v. 35 Toronto. That said, considering New York City has something like 25 supertalls in the pipeline (and dozens of skyscrapers proposed), both Chicago and Toronto are falling further behind in North America.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:27 PM   #1066
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Chicago too: 14 Proposals over 200m. That would push Chicago to 41 skyscrapers, 3 more than Toronto and certainly above Miami.
They still have to make it out of the ground. What is your assessment of the strength of the market there in Chicago? It's crazy down here in Miami. We could see almost anything except for the fact that we are hampered by height restrictions because of the proximity of Miami International Airport (top center in the photo below). We are limited as to where we can build tall, but still we have 3 supertalls proposed for a total of 7 buildings over 200 meters proposed thus far. That will bring the total to 10 altogether and we don't know what all else might be coming based on the strength of the market. The CTBUH Skyscraper Center does indicate more activity in Miami at the moment and that's really the point that was being made, not that Miami is ever going to surpass Chicago or Toronto.

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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #1067
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
I'll check out the 200m+ (656ft) since 600ft is a very arbitrary number whereas 200m is the SSC standard.

Chicago
1. Willis Tower 1,451ft
2. Trump International Hotel and Tower 1,389ft
3. Aon Center 1,136ft
4. John Hancock Center 1,127ft
5. Franklin Center North Center 1,007ft
6. Two Prudential Plaza 995ft
7. 311 South Wacker Drive 961ft
8. 900 North Michigan 871ft
9. Water Tower Place 859ft
10. Aqua 859ft
11. Chase Tower 850ft
12. Park Tower 844ft
13. The Legacy at Millennium Park 822ft
14. 300 North LaSalle 784ft
15. Three First National Plaza 767ft
16. Chicago Title and Trust Center 755ft
17. Blue Cross Blue Shield Tower 743ft
18. One Museum Park 734ft
U/C #28. River Point 732ft
19. Olympia Centre 731ft
20. 330 North Wabash 695ft
21. Waldorf Astoria Chicago 686ft
22. 111 South Wacker Drive 681ft
23. 181 West Madison Street 680ft
24. Hyatt Center 679ft
25. One Magnificent Mile 673ft
26. 340 on the Park 672ft
27. 77 West Wacker Drive 668ft

So 28 Completed & U/C plus 13 proposals (outlined above) = 41 Skyscrapers.

Toronto
1. First Canadian Place 978ft
2. Trump International Hotel and Tower 908ft
3. Scotia Plaza 902ft
U/C #12 Aura at College Park 892ft
4. TD Canada Trust Tower 856ft
U/C #13 Number One Bloor East 844ft
5. Commerce Court West 784ft
U/C #14 Ice Condos at York Centre 2 768ft
U/C #15 Harbour Plaza Residences East 764ft
U/C #16 Harbour Plaza Residences West 735ft
6. Toronto-Dominin Tower 731ft
7. Bay Adelaide Centre West Tower 715ft
8. Shangri-La Toronto 702ft
9. Ritz-Carlton Toronto 684ft
10. Bay Wellington Tower 679ft
T/O #17 L Tower 673ft
11. Four Seasons Hotel and Residences West 669ft
T/O #18 88 Scott Centre 669ft
T/O #19 Ice Condos at York Centre 1 663ft

So 19 Completed & U/C plus 19 Proposals (see here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=986) = 38 Skyscrapers

From 2000 to 2014 Toronto completed (incl. T/O) 7 Skyscrapers (#2, 7, 8, 9, 11, 17, & 18 above). From 2000 to 2014 Chicago completed 11 Skyscrapers (#2, #10, #12, #13, #14, #17, #18, #21, #22, #24, #26). So, contrary to the whole 'Toronto iz the greatest skyline in the world eva!' crowd, Chicago actually added more skyscrapers and put even more space with Toronto. You don't hear that here on SSC As for the proposals, I doubt the Old Post Development Supertalls turn into anything so that's -3 from Chicago. I also don't think the Gehry Towers get anywhere in Toronto so that's -3 from Toronto. All 6 sites will accomodate something large but nothing short-term. I also think it's dubious to rely on 'proposals' lest we remember the Chicago Spire and the Oxford Place Supertalls. At best Chicago will have 41 v. 38 for Toronto. More likely is Chicago 38 v. 35 Toronto. That said, considering New York City has something like 25 supertalls in the pipeline (and dozens of skyscrapers proposed), both Chicago and Toronto are falling further behind in North America.

Just for the sake of precision, 88 Scott Centre is not T/O but U/C.

Also, in a couple of months you would add Ten York in that list.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:32 PM   #1068
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So, contrary to the whole 'Toronto iz the greatest skyline in the world eva!' crowd, Chicago actually added more skyscrapers and put even more space with Toronto. You don't hear that here on SSC As for the proposals, I doubt the Old Post Development and Chicago Spire Site turn into anything so that's -4 from Chicago. I also don't think Oxford Place and the Gehry Towers get anywhere in Toronto so that's -5 from Toronto. All 9 sites will accomodate something large but nothing short-term.
Oh I agree and I have previously pointed this out to the overly exuberant Toronto folks. In fact I don't believe you can find any 10 year period (including the last one during which Toronto has been experiencing an unprecedented - by its standards - boom) in which Toronto actualy reduced the gap on Chicago in anything other than the 300 to 500 ft range. I also don't put much stock on proposeds. Until there are shovels in the ground it's just talk. And if you look at the 500ft+ range, the gap between the two is still massive (even if you count all of the current U/Cs in Toronto) and, as you have pointed out, has actually increased since 2000.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:39 PM   #1069
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They still have to make it out of the ground. What is your assessment of the strength of the market there in Chicago? It's crazy down here in Miami. We could see almost anything except for the fact that we are hampered by height restrictions because of the proximity of Miami International Airport (top center in the photo below). We are limited as to where we can build tall, but still we have 3 supertalls proposed for a total of 7 buildings over 200 meters proposed thus far.

Yes, I agree. 5 of Toronto's 19 'proposals' are in one complex. If that development or project stalls, then Toronto's edge over Chicago is wiped out. It is foolhardy to think they will all be built. I don't live in Chicago but I traveled there this past summer and am in close contact with the city through friends. Chicago's core is very healthy whereas the rest of the city is losing people to the suburbs. The thing is that Chicago isn't a boom-and-bust type of city. If you look at their skyscraper development it is steady and deliberate. SSC isn't made for that 'steadiness'. If Chicago builds 10 towers a year for a decade and Toronto (or wherever) builds 50 in one year, we will all be crowing about Toronto. Yet, Chicago will have built 100 in the decade to 50 for Toronto.

Chicago's economy, since it is based on regional financial firms, commodities, agriculture, etc. isn't as hard-hit by global trends. So unlike Toronto or New York that boom and bust based on global stock trends, Chicago builds on more domestic demands. Chicago's skyline is also built on corporate towers. Most residentials are in the Aqua Area (adjacent to the Chicago river) or in North Michigan Avenue. There's also a growing cluster in the South Loop. But there's so much space that there's no need for massive residential construction. Unlike Manhattan or Miami that are bounded in growth by geography, Chicago has 500 miles of farms, rolling hills and lowland around it. So residential construction sprawls outward instead of having to be vertical. If there is a national resurgence in urban living (and I think with the millennials that is likely) Chicago will be able to benefit massively and I wouldn't be shocked to see tons of proposals. That said, a one bedroom condo in Downtown Chicago cost my friend $250,000. Try finding a closet that costs that much in Manhattan. So land + corporate zoning + low cost of housing = sprawl and few residential skyscrapers (though Aqua, One Museum Park, etc. show that's changing). Globalization is also helping Miami, NYC and Toronto since they are international cities. Chicago is a regional city with international links. Big difference.

I think Miami has great growth potential, probably more than every city in North America minus New York. Latin America is booming, Miami is a Latin city and there's high demand for housing. That's a recipe for success. I love it when American cities build vertically and I hope Miami's skyscraper style is picked up by other places.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:40 PM   #1070
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Well, being exuberant and say 'Toronto iz the greatest skyline in the world eva!' are two completely different things in my book. There's nothing bad being excited by such a big change on your own city.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:48 PM   #1071
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Just for the sake of precision, 88 Scott Centre is not T/O but U/C.

Also, in a couple of months you would add Ten York in that list.
Yes, it barely started construction like a week or two ago. Fixed.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #1072
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Well, being exuberant and say 'Toronto iz the greatest skyline in the world eva!' are two completely different things in my book. There's nothing bad being excited by such a big change on your own city.
That's fine but some of the opinions and predictions being voiced by Toronto posters border on delusion, frankly. On this very thread you see people predicting that Toronto will have a superior skyline to Chicago by 2025 when in reality, by virtually any reasonable metric by which skylines should be judged - size, height, quality and variety of architecture, density, etc - the gap between the two is almost Grand Canyon size. I have even seen some on the Toronto board predicting that Toronto will have as many skyscrapers as NY within 10-15 years.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 10:59 PM   #1073
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That's fine but some of the opinions and predictions being voiced by Toronto posters border on delusion, frankly. On this very thread you see people predicting that Toronto will have a superior skyline to Chicago by 2025 when in reality, by virtually any reasonable metric by which skylines should be judged - size, height, quality and variety of architecture, density, etc - the gap between the two is almost Grand Canyon size. I have even seen some on the Toronto board predicting that Toronto will have as many skyscrapers as NY within 10-15 years.
Well, I'm just happy to see the kind of growth I'm seeing in all our North American cities. Things got really stagnant there for awhile. It's good to see more skyscrapers coming out of ground again in this part of the world. As for Miami, I'm already seeing a skyline I never dreamed we'd have when I moved here 30 years ago. Anything else is just icing on the cake!
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #1074
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Oh I agree and I have previously pointed this out to the overly exuberant Toronto folks. In fact I don't believe you can find any 10 year period (including the last one during which Toronto has been experiencing an unprecedented - by its standards - boom) in which Toronto actualy reduced the gap on Chicago in anything other than the 300 to 500 ft range. I also don't put much stock on proposeds. Until there are shovels in the ground it's just talk. And if you look at the 500ft+ range, the gap between the two is still massive (even if you count all of the current U/Cs in Toronto) and, as you have pointed out, has actually increased since 2000.
I looked up the number of skyscrapers over 200m built in both cities by decade. You're absolutely right. Chicago has been steadily building, and, in fact, every decade builds slightly more. It's steady momentum.

1960s: Chicago 2 v. Toronto 1
1970s: Chicago 4 v. Toronto 2
1980s: Chicago 5 v. Toronto 1
1990s: Chicago 6 v. Toronto 2
2000s: Chicago 7 v. Toronto 1(!)
2010s (so far): Chicago 3 v. Toronto 6 (incl. T/O)

So Toronto during its boom has gained a whooping 3 skyscrapers on a Chicago recovering from a recession. And we're supposed to assume that means Toronto is on an uncontrollable upswing? If we look at 500ft+, Toronto's "gain" on Chicago is practically nonexistent. Yet there's forumers on this site arguing Toronto's skyline is #3 or 4 in the world. Talk about hysteria. So this decade might be the first that Toronto builds more than Chicago, and that's if the boom can continue for another 6 years and Chicago doesn't step it up. Just from 2009-2010 Chicago built 7 skyscrapers! That was less than 4 years ago. I think Chicago's just taking a rest and construction will resume markedly in the upcoming 5 years.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #1075
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Well, I'm just happy to see the kind of growth I'm seeing in all our North American cities. Things got really stagnant there for awhile. It's good to see more skyscrapers coming out of ground again in this part of the world. As for Miami, I'm already seeing a skyline I never dreamed we'd have when I moved here 30 years ago. Anything else is just icing on the cake!
Agree 100%. What's happening in Toronto (and to a lesser extent Miami) is very exciting. I believe Toronto has almost tripled its skyline in the last 20 years. I only wish there was more variety and creativity in what's coming out.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:17 PM   #1076
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I looked up the number of skyscrapers over 200m built in both cities by decade. You're absolutely right. Chicago has been steadily building, and, in fact, every decade builds slightly more. It's steady momentum.

1960s: Chicago 2 v. Toronto 1
1970s: Chicago 4 v. Toronto 2
1980s: Chicago 5 v. Toronto 1
1990s: Chicago 6 v. Toronto 2
2000s: Chicago 7 v. Toronto 1(!)
2010s (so far): Chicago 3 v. Toronto 6 (incl. T/O)

So Toronto during its boom has gained a whooping 3 skyscrapers on a Chicago recovering from a recession. And we're supposed to assume that means Toronto is on an uncontrollable upswing? If we look at 500ft+, Toronto's "gain" on Chicago is practically nonexistent. Yet there's forumers on this site arguing Toronto's skyline is #3 or 4 in the world. Talk about hysteria. So this decade might be the first that Toronto builds more than Chicago, and that's if the boom can continue for another 6 years and Chicago doesn't step it up. Just from 2009-2010 Chicago built 7 skyscrapers! That was less than 4 years ago. I think Chicago's just taking a rest and construction will resume markedly in the upcoming 5 years.
I don't want to turn this into a city vs city, but I am slightly confused by your use of the term "skyscraper". Skyscraper is generally considered any highrise over 100m/328ft (used to be 90 meters I believe). Toronto has been gaining on Chicago in the 300 to 500 ft range, but when it comes to 500ft+ (which IMO are the ones that really make a significant impact on the skyline) it still lags way behind, even if you count all of the current U/Cs in Toronto.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:19 PM   #1077
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Agree 100%. What's happening in Toronto (and to a lesser extent Miami) is very exciting. I believe Toronto has almost tripled its skyline in the last 20 years. I only wish there was more variety and creativity in what's coming out.
Yes, and let's not forget the King of the Hill, New York City, that will be building more height in one street, 57th Street, than all of Toronto's U/C skyscrapers combined are projected to add. I count 29 Supertalls completed by 2025 (and new proposals are being added monthly). 435 10th Avenue came onto the radar just this week! New York, Dubai and Shenzhen are the only three cities that will be in the running for most supertalls. And they are wiping out the competition.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:20 PM   #1078
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Agree 100%. What's happening in Toronto (and to a lesser extent Miami) is very exciting. I believe Toronto has almost tripled its skyline in the last 20 years. I only wish there was more variety and creativity in what's coming out.
I thought in the last decade Miami could catch Toronto, but then, Toronto exploded. So much for that! Looks like Miami could be sitting comfortably at third in the U.S. though after it's all said and done.
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:22 PM   #1079
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I don't want to turn this into a city vs city, but I am slightly confused by your use of the term "skyscraper". Skyscraper is generally considered any highrise over 100m/328ft (used to be 90 meters I believe). Toronto has been gaining on Chicago in the 300 to 500 ft range, but when it comes to 500ft+ (which IMO are the ones that really make a significant impact on the skyline) it still lags way behind, even if you count all of the current U/Cs in Toronto.
I don't see this as city vs. city. A factual comparison between cities is not the same as "your city sucks." "No, your city sucks more". Skyscraper on SSC is 200m+. Technically a Skyscraper is 200-299m and then 300m+ is a Supertall but Skyscraper is used to typically refer to 200m+. CTBUH says 150m+ is a Skyscraper. It all depends on what you see as tall, really. 50m would be a skyscraper in my neck of the woods.
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Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
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Old January 12th, 2014, 11:28 PM   #1080
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I don't want to turn this into a city vs city, but I am slightly confused by your use of the term "skyscraper". Skyscraper is generally considered any highrise over 100m/328ft (used to be 90 meters I believe). Toronto has been gaining on Chicago in the 300 to 500 ft range, but when it comes to 500ft+ (which IMO are the ones that really make a significant impact on the skyline) it still lags way behind, even if you count all of the current U/Cs in Toronto.
There is a thread in the World Development News forum titled Skyscrapers where they start at 200 meters (656 ft). I like using 150 meters and up (492 ft) because so my cities have so many buildings that are over 100 meters and above. It's a lot to count. Before computers, my reference was the World Almanac and Book of Facts. When I first started referencing that book decades ago, they started at 300 feet listing tall buildings for all North American cities. I think for Chicago though, at the time, they started at 450 feet. New York was the only city where they would list nothing below 500 feet, and for me, that became what I call the New York standard for a skyscraper, 500 feet and above. The World Almanac now only lists 500 and above for most North American cities.
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