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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:14 AM   #1121
Zack Fair
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Originally Posted by QuantumX View Post
I don't see where people are making these claims about Toronto. I think Dubai actually does look something like Coruscant.
Agreed.
I'm really excited to see such a boom and so many buildings U/C here, it's like a rebirth for this city, but that's not make Toronto the best city in the world ever.

Just because someone love his own city, doesn't that mean he can't speak without being objective.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:20 AM   #1122
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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Agreed.
I'm really excited to see such a boom and so many buildings U/C here, it's like a rebirth for this city, but that's not make Toronto the best city in the world ever.

Just because someone love his own city, doesn't that mean he can't speak without being objective.
As I've said before, I'm thrilled for any skyscraper development going on anywhere on the North American continent. It's hard competing with all that cheaper Chinese labor. I'm hoping that with Miami, the United States will have at least three really major skylines in the not too distant future.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:21 AM   #1123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Uhm, where he said Toronto is beating NYC?
Again, beating? It's that a sort of competition for you? The National Skyscrapers League? Chill out dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumX View Post
I don't see where people are making these claims about Toronto. I think Dubai actually does look something like Coruscant.
It's on the last page but something tells me you guys didn't ever bother to look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I wouldn't give those comments the time of day. Manitopiaa rarely has anything positive to say about Toronto (or Canada). His attempt to paint Torontonians as a bunch of idiots out of touch with reality is lame and few who've been on SSC for a while are going to fall for it.

Toronto's boom is massive by anyone's standards. We're in year 7 of the construction boom so it hasn't exactly been some brief 2-3 year phenomenon. Any one who bothered to check the numbers would quickly realize that it's not a bunch of cheerleaders talking it up into something it isn't. The only cities that built more than Toronto from 2012 to 2013 were Manila, Jakarta, and 4 Chinese cities.

This was a quantitative analysis that counted every metre over 90m built in cities around the world. So if a city built a 150m building it counted as '60' or 150-90. Toronto came 7th and built 1.461 km. This is the top 20:


Shenzhen 2663
Shenyang 2542
Manila 2453
Wuxi 1839
Jakarta 1814
Wuhan 1638
Toronto 1461
Tianjin 1460
Kuala Lumpur 1454
Chongqing 1379

Dubai 1281
Chengdu 1225
New York 961
Hangzhou 876
Shanghai 876
Moscow 863
Qingdao 804
Istanbul 744
Tokyo 743
Singapore 712


Btw, New York is experiencing a fantastic boom but it's hardly pulling away from Toronto like Manitopiaa seems to think. Just 10 years ago the New York skyline was easily 6 times the size of Toronto's skyline. Today it's still far bigger, but only 4 times larger. If the majority of the proposals on the table in New York and Toronto get built it will be 3 times bigger. How is the gap widening?

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2012 List: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1846725370
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:24 AM   #1124
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Manitopiaaa, I still don't see where what he is saying is as outlandish as you're making it out to be though.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:26 AM   #1125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Uhm, where he said Toronto is beating NYC?
Again, beating? It's that a sort of competition for you? The National Skyscrapers League? Chill out dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Agreed.
I'm really excited to see such a boom and so many buildings U/C here, it's like a rebirth for this city, but that's not make Toronto the best city in the world ever.

Just because someone love his own city, doesn't that mean he can't speak without being objective.
Did you read the name of this thread? Best Skylines by 2025 It's not "Good Skylines" but "Best". That word implies exclusivity which implies some measure of competition. Not every skyline can claim to the best.

Isaidso: "I love Toronto. Toronto's about to pass Chicago!"
Manitopia: "I love Chicago. Chicago's gonna beat Toronto!"

Isaidso: Just a patriot who "loves his own city"
Manitopia: Nationalist bully who hates all Canadians and is manipulating the data.

Got it, thanks for the double standard!
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Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
Portland (3,160,488) - San Diego (3,317,749) - San Francisco (8,751,807) - Seattle (4,684,516) - Tampa (3,032,171) - Washington (9,665,892)

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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:32 AM   #1126
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Did you read the name of this thread? Best Skylines by 2025 It's not "Good Skylines" but "Best". That word implies exclusivity which implies some measure of competition. Not every skyline can claim to the best.
But did you read what he actually said though in what you just quoted. I think you're reading more into what people are saying than what is actually there.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:34 AM   #1127
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Did you read the name of this thread? Best Skylines by 2025 It's not "Good Skylines" but "Best". That word implies exclusivity which implies some measure of competition. Not every skyline can claim to the best.

Isaidso: "I love Toronto. Toronto's about to pass Chicago!"
Manitopia: "I love Chicago. Chicago's gonna beat Toronto!"

Isaidso: Just a patriot who "loves his own city"
Manitopia: Nationalist bully who hates all Canadians and is manipulating the data.

Got it, thanks for the double standard!
It's the BEST SKYLINES IN 2025, not larger neither bigger or with more supertall U/C. Everybody can have a different definition of "best".

And no, seems that your attitude is a little bit different than "I love Chicago. Chicago's gonna beat Toronto!".
Try to read again that Isaidso's post. I can't see "Toronto beat NYC WOOAAH MAN".
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:35 AM   #1128
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But did you read what he actually said though in what you just quoted. I think you're reading more into what people are saying than what is actually there.
I just edited to add the more relevant quote. I think you're being highly one-sided scorning me for doing the exact thing you excuse others of doing and I'll leave it at that.
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Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
Portland (3,160,488) - San Diego (3,317,749) - San Francisco (8,751,807) - Seattle (4,684,516) - Tampa (3,032,171) - Washington (9,665,892)

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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:44 AM   #1129
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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
It's the BEST SKYLINES IN 2025, not larger neither bigger or with more supertall U/C. Everybody can have a different definition of "best".

And no, seems that your attitude is a little bit different than "I love Chicago. Chicago's gonna beat Toronto!".
Try to read again that Isaidso's post. I can't see "Toronto beat NYC WOOAAH MAN".
And comparison is bad? I never once made a single statement about a skyline in this thread that I did not back up with data. The idea that I'm here maligning a city is absurd. So isadso can be dismissive, imply I hate Canada and that I should be ignored (and nobody calls it out) and when he posts a ranking it's just "a guy who loves his city". When I do it's that loon who hates Canadians, no? Again, thanks for the double standard. I love Canada and my posts on this site show that. I do, however, have profound disagreements with Toronto boosters who feel the need to act condescending to every city they feel is inferior. If that makes me a bad guy so be it.

And if this thread was meant to be nothing but a trite parade of skyline pics devoid of any actual discussion then perhaps we should change the name to "Pics of your City" or "Good Skyline Pictures". Apparently 90% of these threads now are people posting a picture and then waiting for a backscratch and a like or two.
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Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
Portland (3,160,488) - San Diego (3,317,749) - San Francisco (8,751,807) - Seattle (4,684,516) - Tampa (3,032,171) - Washington (9,665,892)

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Last edited by Manitopiaaa; January 14th, 2014 at 02:50 AM.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:45 AM   #1130
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I just edited to add the more relevant quote. I think you're being highly one-sided scorning me for doing the exact thing you excuse others of doing and I'll leave it at that.
This says more about you than anything. I'm not scorning you. Nowhere am I scorning you, while you're using the "rolling over laughing" emoticon in a post. I'm trying to get at some real objectivity here. It's why I was asked to become a moderator to begin with, because of my "ability to conduct myself in a respectable and unbiased manner." That is a direct quote from one of the moderating staff years ago, and I bear this in mind with everything I post, Manitopiaaa.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:49 AM   #1131
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It's on the last page but something tells me you guys didn't ever bother to look.
I think that was just a particular metric and not an overall statement. It's hard to refute the argument that Toronto has added more tall buildings than NYC recently. New York has loads of towers in the pipeline but the number of actual buildings under construction has been modest in comparison to Toronto's big boom.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:53 AM   #1132
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I think that was just a particular metric and not an overall statement. It's hard to refute the argument that Toronto has added more tall buildings than NYC recently. New York has loads of towers in the pipeline but the number of actual buildings under construction has been modest in comparison to Toronto's big boom.
I agree desertpunk. I'm not attacking the data. It's the whole statement though. It's the undercurrent that my data is biased and should be ignored whereas his data is a much better metric. If his comment doesn't have that vibe to you, then maybe it's just me but I think the insinuation that I'm the only one biased towards a city here is not true.

"I wouldn't give those comments the time of day. Manitopiaa rarely has anything positive to say about Toronto (or Canada). His attempt to paint Torontonians as a bunch of idiots out of touch with reality is lame and few who've been on SSC for a while are going to fall for it."
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Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
Portland (3,160,488) - San Diego (3,317,749) - San Francisco (8,751,807) - Seattle (4,684,516) - Tampa (3,032,171) - Washington (9,665,892)

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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:54 AM   #1133
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
And comparison is bad? I never once made a single statement about a skyline in this thread that I did not back up with data. The idea that I'm here maligning a city is absurd. So isadso can be dismissive, imply I hate Canada and that I should be ignored (and nobody calls it out) and when he posts a ranking it's just "a guy who loves his city". When I do it's that loon who hates Canadians, no? Again, thanks for the double standard. I love Canada and my posts on this site show that. I do, however, have profound disagreements with Toronto boosters who feel the need to act condescending to every city they feel is inferior. If that makes me a bad guy so be it.
Comparison is different than detract in my book.
And for the part in bold, what? I think you and me are reading two different Isaidso. It's seems to me your attitude is more personal than pure "for the sake of comparison". Whatever.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:57 AM   #1134
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I don't know why people here fighting about cities skylines

Some cities have good skylines of highrises but not the best place to live in it
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:59 AM   #1135
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This says more about you than anything. I'm not scorning you. Nowhere am I scorning you, while you're using the "rolling over laughing" emoticon in a post. I'm trying to get at some real objectivity here. It's why I was asked to become a moderator to begin with, because of my "ability to conduct myself in a respectable and unbiased manner." That is a direct quote from one of the moderating staff years ago, and I bear this in mind with everything I post, Manitopiaaa.
I agree and I have a lot of respect for you and I think I've made that very clear (principally in Skybar). But I think moderating is a two-way street. Implying I hate a country because I disagree with a skyline ranking is a lot more petty in my opinion than my "ROFL" icon in response. I actually think the discussion was very productive until he uttered that statement. I don't see why I'm branded as the villain when I didn't attack anyone until I was personally singled out. That's all I'm saying. If you look at my posts they were all backed up with data. Am I rooting for Chicago? Of course. As I commented, I am happy when any American city grows. I don't see how that implies I hate all Canadians.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 03:27 AM   #1136
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I agree and I have a lot of respect for you and I think I've made that very clear (principally in Skybar). But I think moderating is a two-way street. Implying I hate a country because I disagree with a skyline ranking is a lot more petty in my opinion than my "ROFL" icon in response. I actually think the discussion was very productive until he uttered that statement. I don't see why I'm branded as the villain when I didn't attack anyone until I was personally singled out. That's all I'm saying. If you look at my posts they were all backed up with data. Am I rooting for Chicago? Of course. As I commented, I am happy when any American city grows. I don't see how that implies I hate all Canadians.
Yes, I went back and reviewed the thread. He did seem to be stirring up some old sh*t that wasn't really relevant to the discussion, and that's what got you riled. I'm sorry, but I no longer have the energy to go back weeks and review all the posts on different threads where feuds got started. So let's start over. I'm not scorning you and I don't see you as a villain.

While Toronto might have the potential to surpass Chicago one day, I don't think Chicago is going to stand still long enough, just like I thought Miami could surpass Toronto one day, but it certainly didn't stand still long enough. As Isaidso said, Chicago has its supertalls and on top of that it has a rich tradition in skyscraper architecture. As far as I'm concerned, this is what will still carry Chicago as second best, or even best by some people's estimation, North American skyline by 2025.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 04:29 AM   #1137
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Yes, I went back and reviewed the thread. He did seem to be stirring up some old sh*t that wasn't really relevant to the discussion, and that's what got you riled. I'm sorry, but I no longer have the energy to go back weeks and review all the posts on different threads where feuds got started. So let's start over. I'm not scorning you and I don't see you as a villain.

While Toronto might have the potential to surpass Chicago one day, I don't think Chicago is going to stand still long enough, just like I thought Miami could surpass Toronto one day, but it certainly didn't stand still long enough. As Isaidso said, Chicago has its supertalls and on top of that it has a rich tradition in skyscraper architecture. As far as I'm concerned, this is what will still carry Chicago as second best, or even best by some people's estimation, North American skyline by 2025.
Yeah, pretty much. While it is possible to believe that Toronto might get close to or even surpass Chicago in some statistical categories in the next 10 years or so (100m+ building count seems like a possible one), there are several reasons IMO while it is unlikely to rival the Chicago skyline in the foreseeable future:

1. Toronto's development is scattered among many different clusters. While that makes the city more interesting, it hurts the skyline. In fact, for a city that already has over 200 skyscrapers completed and u/c I find its skyline rather underwhelming. Chicago, by contrast, concentrates its skyscraper development almost exclusively in the greater Loop and Near North Side which merge into one continuous skyline. As a result, its size and density still dwarves anything that can be seen in Toronto in one shot. You can probably chop Chicago's skyline in half and it would still easily be the second most impressive skyline in North America. Put together it's simply a monster.

2. In addition to being bigger and denser, Chicago's skyline is also much taller. Even after all the current projects are completed in Toronto it still will not have even half of Chicago's 500 footers. Of course, Toronto also has no supertalls which are pretty essential for a skyline to have a "WOW" effect. When combined with size and density (point 1), it makes a tremendous visual difference.

3. To your point QuantumX, Chicago's skyscraper heritage is second to none. Not only does it have many iconic buildings but it also has skyscrapers from many different styles and periods. The architectural variety and the rich inventory of old buildings give the skyline tremendous character which newer skylines can never attain. In Toronto's case especially, i find much of the new development bland and uninspiring, and being mostly condos it is limited in its visual impact.

Just my 2 cents

Last edited by Fitzrovian; January 14th, 2014 at 04:44 AM.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 04:43 AM   #1138
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Just my 2 cents
I'd say that was worth more than 2 cents!
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Old January 14th, 2014, 06:48 AM   #1139
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... It's hard to refute the argument that Toronto has added more tall buildings than NYC recently. New York has loads of towers in the pipeline but the number of actual buildings under construction has been modest in comparison to Toronto's big boom.
This pretty much sums it up. Until last year, things had been pretty quiet in NYC. Even with the uptick in construction in NYC, Toronto will still have more towers rising for the foreseeable future. That said, there are many more tall 1000+ towers in the works (both U/C and proposed) in NYC than Toronto.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 09:38 AM   #1140
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SkyscraperCenter and I figured out why it seemed low. Makati wasn't added. With Makati, the number is actually 42: http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/crea...=on&list_year=
Manila is composed of several Municipalities, not just Makati.
Theres also Taguig, Pasig, Mandaluyong etc....
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