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Old January 15th, 2014, 01:31 AM   #1141
QuantumX
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
OMG. 53 proposals over 500ft? When is this boom planned to start? Even Wikipedia still says Miami is at 28. Forget Toronto, if all those get built Miami could pass Chicago and become 2nd in the number of 500 footers. The problem is that most are in the 500-650ft range so just shy of 200m
As you can see, the boom here in Miami is well under way. I thought I had posted enough pictures already.

It the late 90s, the Four Seasons hotel and tower was planned to be over 900 feet tall. I think it was something like 270m, but the FAA said no way. In 2005, at the height of the boom of the last decade, developers and the City of Miami took Miami International Airport and the FAA to task pretty much saying you don't need such stringent height restrictions with 21st Century techology. They came away with what we call the 2005 agreement with developers being able to go to 1,010 feet certain parts of the CBD and the Brickell Financial District that were close to the waterfront. Now the Four Season could have gone to over 900 feet had the developers wanted to, so that was a missed opportunity.

Swire wants to go to 1,102 feet with One Brickell Citycentre. They might have the lawyers and aviation experts to pull it off. We don't know yet.

A 250m building was building for our Edgewater District at the height of last decades boom. The FAA said no way, you're right in line with MIA runways.

Echo Brickell, just one block south of the Four Seasons, was originally planned to go to 750 feet or 229m. Again, the FAA said no way, too close to a runway approach. It got chopped down by the FAA to 634 feet or 193m. We are very limited as to where we can build above 200m, but the boom might be strong enough to give us a nice crop of 200m buildings in the long run depending on wheres developers want to put them where they are allowed rather than where developers want to building them. What you call a problem is only in how you want to measure a skyline.

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Old January 15th, 2014, 08:13 AM   #1142
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This thread has taken a very negative turn. Let's end that trend now or the thread will close.

Manitopiaaa, could you please calm it down a bit with the vitriol? You have been bordering on trolling. Thank you.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 08:20 AM   #1143
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Old January 15th, 2014, 06:07 PM   #1144
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Because you're such a paragon of neutrality, right?
I base my opinions on a wide array of data and try to be as objective and fair as possible while being respectful of other people. When people cross that line it becomes a 'problem'. Some civility please?

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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Toronto beating New York, now? By next week, you'll be claiming Toronto is competing with Coruscant.
That's not my data, it was tabulated by a company and published in the Almanac of Architecture and Design. Trying to paint this data as something I made up really crosses the line. I clearly provided the source of that data. For the 2nd time, here's the link:


2013 List: http://tudl0867.home.xs4all.nl/skylines.html
2012 List: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1846725370


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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
35m? You're not serious.l
Once again, I'm not sure why you're trying to paint this as some arbitrary thing I've made up. 35m or roughly 12 floors is used as the cut off for 'high rise' by organizations like Emporis; in some countries like India the definition of high rise is even lower.

A city's visual impact is effected by buildings 35m+ and is worth looking at in addition to the other benchmarks. Using higher benchmarks alone often results in erroneous conclusions. Using 200m+, for example, would indicate that no buildings exist in Vancouver or Sao Paulo which is ridiculous to anyone that knows what those skylines look like.

35m is very low by today's standards, but is the most inclusive of all them all. You only get a truer depiction of a city's visual impact when you look at all of it: 35m+, 100m+, 200m+, and 300m+. In the near term, we'll likely start seeing 400m+ added to that. Here's a link to a list of cities with the most high rises. And yes they use 35m+:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rise_buildings
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Last edited by isaidso; January 15th, 2014 at 07:53 PM.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 06:43 PM   #1145
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As I've said before, I'm thrilled for any skyscraper development going on anywhere on the North American continent. It's hard competing with all that cheaper Chinese labor. I'm hoping that with Miami, the United States will have at least three really major skylines in the not too distance future.
Agree, it's wonderful what's happening in Asia but nice to see a few north American cities doing well in this area. Miami has a very bright future and will become a strong #3 in the US. It would be nice to see a big 4th skyline in the US west somewhere though. San Francisco?
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Old January 15th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #1146
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Yeah, pretty much. While it is possible to believe that Toronto might get close to or even surpass Chicago in some statistical categories in the next 10 years or so (100m+ building count seems like a possible one), there are several reasons IMO while it is unlikely to rival the Chicago skyline in the foreseeable future:

1. Toronto's development is scattered among many different clusters. While that makes the city more interesting, it hurts the skyline. In fact, for a city that already has over 200 skyscrapers completed and u/c I find its skyline rather underwhelming. Chicago, by contrast, concentrates its skyscraper development almost exclusively in the greater Loop and Near North Side which merge into one continuous skyline. As a result, its size and density still dwarves anything that can be seen in Toronto in one shot. You can probably chop Chicago's skyline in half and it would still easily be the second most impressive skyline in North America. Put together it's simply a monster.

2. In addition to being bigger and denser, Chicago's skyline is also much taller. Even after all the current projects are completed in Toronto it still will not have even half of Chicago's 500 footers. Of course, Toronto also has no supertalls which are pretty essential for a skyline to have a "WOW" effect. When combined with size and density (point 1), it makes a tremendous visual difference.

3. To your point QuantumX, Chicago's skyscraper heritage is second to none. Not only does it have many iconic buildings but it also has skyscrapers from many different styles and periods. The architectural variety and the rich inventory of old buildings give the skyline tremendous character which newer skylines can never attain. In Toronto's case especially, i find much of the new development bland and uninspiring, and being mostly condos it is limited in its visual impact.

Just my 2 cents
I agree with some of those points, but do feel like you miss the mark in one area. Toronto's skyscrapers are mostly post 1970, but beneath that lies a rich tapestry of good quality architecture and layering over the past 150 years. It's obviously not something evident when viewing a skyline shot, but at street level it's a different matter entirely. This is a skyline thread, but it's not accurate to say there's little architectural layering in this city.

Ones overall impression of a skyline greatly depends on what one prioritizes. There are many factors like density, height, scale, architecture, layering, peaks, etc. I realize Americans like to use 500 feet as a benchmark, but it's not the only way to gauge a skyline. Height is important, but so is scale. Chicago wins hands down if one prioritizes height. But if one prioritizes scale, Toronto has the edge. Toronto's bulk is concentrated in the 35m-150m range.
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Last edited by isaidso; January 15th, 2014 at 09:23 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 02:34 AM   #1147
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I agree with some of those points, but do feel like you miss the mark in one area. Toronto's skyscrapers are mostly post 1970, but beneath that lies a rich tapestry of good quality architecture and layering over the past 150 years. It's obviously not something evident when viewing a skyline shot, but at street level it's a different matter entirely. This is a skyline thread, but it's not accurate to say there's little architectural layering in this city.

Ones overall impression of a skyline greatly depends on what one prioritizes. There are many factors like density, height, scale, architecture, layering, peaks, etc. I realize Americans like to use 500 feet as a benchmark, but it's not the only way to gauge a skyline. Height is important, but so is scale. Chicago wins hands down if one prioritizes height. But if one prioritizes scale, Toronto has the edge. Toronto's bulk is concentrated in the 35m-150m range.
At the risk of stating the obvious, if it's "obviously not something evident when viewing a skyline shot" then why are you bringing it up? I am confused as to what relevance it has to the discussion at hand and how I could be missing the mark if it's got none.

As for rich tapestry of old buildings, I will take your word for it - you obviously know Toronto much better than I do - but I hope you are not trying to suggest that Toronto is superior to Chicago in that regard. After all, Chicago was already a major global metropolis at the turn of the century, when Toronto was still a relatively small and provincial town. So I suspect it might have even more of that "tapestry stuff" than does Toronto

In fact, one of the most iconic shots of the Chicago skyline -- from Grant Park looking northwest towards the Loop -- is the definition of rich tapestry and superb architectural layering. Even if we can agree on nothing else I hope that we, as skyscraper enthusiasts, can at least all agree on that. And if you can show me any picture of Toronto that can measure up to that, I will be quite impressed.

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Old January 16th, 2014, 05:50 AM   #1148
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while not best skyline, Los Angeles Skyline by 2025 is going to be incredibly different, and strengthen its position as 3rd best skyline in the United States. IMO
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Old January 16th, 2014, 05:51 AM   #1149
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while not best skyline, Los Angeles Skyline by 2025 is going to be incredibly different, and strengthen its position as 3rd best skyline in the United States. IMO
By whose measure is this?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 05:56 AM   #1150
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In fact, one of the most iconic shots of the Chicago skyline -- from Grant Park looking northwest towards the Loop -- is the definition of rich tapestry and superb architectural layering. Even if we can agree on nothing else I hope that we, as skyscraper enthusiasts, can at least all agree on that. And if you can show me any picture of Toronto that can measure up to that, I will be quite impressed.
Can you please find a picture of this that you can post?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 10:03 AM   #1151
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It would be nice to see a big 4th skyline in the US west somewhere though. San Francisco?
The San Francisco skyline is in the process of being transformed both by construction of the city's first supertall (the Transbay) but more so by all the additional construction in the Transbay District and on Rincon Hill. This massing study gives some idea of what's happening (the greenish and white slightly transparent buildings are new--most of those shown are actually under construction or soon will be and a few are completed):


http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci...=image_gallery

31 significant projects either underway or expected to break ground this year are catalogued and mapped here: http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2014/0...ce_of_soma.php
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Old January 16th, 2014, 02:03 PM   #1152
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Can you please find a picture of this that you can post?
Here are a couple:


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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:21 PM   #1153
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bkk

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonblue...58146/sizes/h/
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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:40 PM   #1154
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Here are a couple:
Okay, I see what you mean now. I wasn't sure what perspective you were talking about. I didn't go that far south taking pictures when I was there, but I think the two of mine below kind of exemplify what you're taking about. I think this is part of what will keep Chicago high in the rankings even in 2025.

image hosted on flickr

5B8A2354_5_6_stitchM3s by Rasidel Slika, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

CSC_0392 by QuantumX, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

DSC_0232 by QuantumX, on Flickr
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:10 PM   #1155
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At the risk of stating the obvious, if it's "obviously not something evident when viewing a skyline shot" then why are you bringing it up?
Saying that a city lacks historical skyscrapers and saying that a city lacks historical architecture are two very different things.

Chicago was a much larger city than Toronto in 1920. The buildings reflected the size and stature of each city at the time, but both obviously have buildings from every era from the 1850s onward. Chicago's were bigger and taller, but that was more a product of Chicago's size back then than anything else.

A lot of this still exists today, but you're not exactly going to notice it in a skyline shot because the modern towers block it all from view. Toronto lost a lot in the 'Great Fire' and the bulldozer, but there's still lots left:

Circa 1900


What it looks like today
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #1156
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BANGKOK TWIN TOWER 450M. 2014


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...247181&page=56
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:27 PM   #1157
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AREA ZONE makkasam ariport rail link station

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Old January 17th, 2014, 01:23 AM   #1158
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Saying that a city lacks historical skyscrapers and saying that a city lacks historical architecture are two very different things.

Chicago was a much larger city than Toronto in 1920. The buildings reflected the size and stature of each city at the time, but both obviously have buildings from every era from the 1850s onward. Chicago's were bigger and taller, but that was more a product of Chicago's size back then than anything else.

A lot of this still exists today, but you're not exactly going to notice it in a skyline shot because the modern towers block it all from view. Toronto lost a lot in the 'Great Fire' and the bulldozer, but there's still lots left:

Circa 1900


What it looks like today
I am still puzzled what any of this has got to do with this thread or what I wrote. I was only discussing Chicago's and Toronto's respective skylines and at no point did I allude to the presence or absence of other historic architecture in Toronto - which is a separate matter altogether. So again I am not clear which points from my post you disagree with and where you think I "missed the mark".
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Old January 17th, 2014, 03:42 AM   #1159
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"Best" is a rather ambiguous phrase, I think volume and numbers don't do it justice. There is an artistic element which is more than just sheer height.
For instance- Shenzhen doesn't particularly impress me as being one of the best by 2025. It has plenty of height, and a great number of planned supertalls, but the volumes of poor quality lowrises mixed with overplanned CBD's, and seemingly perpetually hazy skies mean that I have yet to see a picture that impresses me as a future "great" skyline. I think it will take a lot more than ~10 years to bring it up to a "great" standard.
Shanghai and Hong Kong are better, in terms of overall effect, although Shanghai appears to suffer from similar haze problems.
Any skyline should be allowed to be nominated, regardless of height or volume.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:59 PM   #1160
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For instance- Shenzhen doesn't particularly impress me as being one of the best by 2025. It has plenty of height, and a great number of planned supertalls, but the volumes of poor quality lowrises mixed with overplanned CBD's, and seemingly perpetually hazy skies mean that I have yet to see a picture that impresses me as a future "great" skyline. I think it will take a lot more than ~10 years to bring it up to a "great" standard.
Shanghai and Hong Kong are better, in terms of overall effect, although Shanghai appears to suffer from similar haze problems.
Any skyline should be allowed to be nominated, regardless of height or volume.
I agree but Chinese cities haven't done anything horribly unfixablely wrong. The over planned CBDs are having their roads narrowed and excessive green spaces redeveloped (see Lujiazui, and Futain CBDs). Newer ones have much better planning principles (Houhai, Qinghai, Tianhe) Most importantly, the skyline can only get taller and bigger and will always be there haze or no haze. The haze will go away with time and development.
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