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Old November 28th, 2005, 10:44 PM   #261
Metropolitan
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Post edited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Please tone down your outbursts. You may have a problem comparing infrastructure between Paris and Sydney, but that doesn't mean everyone else lacks this ability.
I don't have any difficulty to compare both. I just believe that the cities of Paris and Sydney are structured so differently that they aren't comparable. It's just my opinion though.

Quote:
Bold remarks from someone who admits they have never travelled on Sydney's rail network.
Sydney being a low density urban sprawl with a very small center. Totally uncomparable with Paris density nearly reaching the level we can find in New York City.

Quote:
Hmmm, this is where your outbursts and assumptions work against you. I am actually an Australian. You'd be surprised how much I know about the Sydney system having used it for a damn good deal of my life on a daily basis.

Oh, yes, Sydney was my home town.
Fine, but it's just a suburban rail system. As 95% of Sydney's population live in housing sprawl.

Quote:
Now, I didn't bring up Sydney, so don't blast me.
Actually you did, but that's not so much a problem.

Quote:
But it's an interesting comparison. Sydney's network is a combined system with has parts like an RER in the city center, where suburban trains travel underground but where most are out in the suburbs over ground. It also operates as a suburban rail system, an express commuter system, and a regional rail system. Unfortunately all under a single entity and over the same lines which does hinder it a bit. In fact, another thing it has in common with some RER lines are the double decker trains - one thing you don't find on metro's because of the slow boarding and disembarking, somthing more suitable to suburban and commuter links.
There's a train every 90 seconds on the RER A and despite this, there are still double-decker trains on that line (fairly recent actually). It doesn't take more time to board into an RER A than to board into a Metro on line 1. I actually fail to see for which reason you could believe the opposite. The frequency of the RER is actually superior to the frequency of the métro.

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Now please. Enough of the personal attacks. I'm not attacking you, I just have an opinion that is different from your's, which seems like something you can't tolerate.
Well I'm sorry about it. I didn't want to attack you, and that's mainly the reason why I've edited this post. Now, please forgive me, but I still believe that Sydney's network is different from the RER network, not necessarily because of the infrastructure (as you've pointed out, I've never taken public transports in Sydney so I can't know about it), but because the cities are different and the way people are transiting in both cities are very different.

Last edited by Metropolitan; November 29th, 2005 at 12:22 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2005, 11:53 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
On the note of Sydney's city rail. This travels from Wollongong to Newcastle. A tri-metro area covering 25,000km². Almost all of the line is suburban with the exception of a tiny fraction in the city center (and a great deal travels through large national parks including crossing the entire width of the Blue Mountains). It is clearly a suburban/commuter line, with S-bahn simularities in downtown and large regional lines in the outskirts. A metro is a very long shot there.
Yes with hindsight I realise that Sydney and Melbourne are about as much metro as Thameslink is

I still think the RER does qualify though
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Old November 29th, 2005, 12:24 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
What I cannot tolerate is hearing someone from down under Australia being confident in his idea that he knows better what is the RER than I do, as a Parisians using it every day. There's a word for this : arrogance.
This is actually quite amusing, especially from someone who insists on debating about a system (Sydney) of which they have never actually been on.
Now, I'm not the only one who considers simularities with the RER and Sydney's system...
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...r+rail+systems
http://www.infothis.com/find/Regional_rail/


The problem with this debate, is that you throw insults at me for my opinions.

What's wrong with that, is that my opinion, is the accepted opinion in the industry as far as the RER goes.

You can debate your side of the case all you want, and that's fair, but if you insult my side of the argument, you are claiming every book is wrong and that you are right.

I'll ask you one thing. If the RER is considered a metro, then surely Paris has the largest metro system in the world. Please show me one site on the internet that claims Paris has the largest metro in the world.

The Internet is a big thing, with billions upon billions of articles. Surely, if you are right in what you say, you will find at least ONE site amongst those billions to back you up and claim Paris with the world's largest metro.

And please, no further insults. It really makes you look like your backed against a brick wall.

I'll suggest you start searching.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 12:50 AM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
This is actually quite amusing, especially from someone who insists on debating about a system (Sydney) of which they have never actually been on.
Now, I'm not the only one who considers simularities with the RER and Sydney's system...
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...r+rail+systems
http://www.infothis.com/find/Regional_rail/


The problem with this debate, is that you throw insults at me for my opinions.

What's wrong with that, is that my opinion, is the accepted opinion in the industry as far as the RER goes.

You can debate your side of the case all you want, and that's fair, but if you insult my side of the argument, you are claiming every book is wrong and that you are right.

I'll ask you one thing. If the RER is considered a metro, then surely Paris has the largest metro system in the world. Please show me one site on the internet that claims Paris has the largest metro in the world.

The Internet is a big thing, with billions upon billions of articles. Surely, if you are right in what you say, you will find at least ONE site amongst those billions to back you up and claim Paris with the world's largest metro.

And please, no further insults. It really makes you look like your backed against a brick wall.

I'll suggest you start searching.
Well, actually, I wanted to post you a PM to say that I was sorry about it. I'm not even sure that Paris system would be the "largest in the world" if we counted the RER, and actually I honnestly don't really care about comparing such figures as it seems pointless to me. Every systems are different. They are organized locally in a larger frame involving not simply subway systems, but also trains, bus, tramways or in the case of Sydney, even ships. Public transports even depend on road facilities.

Anyway, the problem with the RER (especially lines C and D) is that you cannot clearly considering it as a subway, however it would be even more wrong to qualify them as commuter rails. As much in London than in New York, I've been shocked about the way were organized the subway networks. They aren't about fluidifying the circulation in the city center, as in Paris, but they go deep into purely residential areas... something the métro in Paris doesn't do. Hence, I got the feeling, especially in London, that actually it wasn't a métro system, but a system of 12 RER lines.

All systems are different because all cities are structurally different.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 01:09 AM   #265
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^ now that's a lot more reasonable. I appreciate it.

This is how I see the RER. It's a hybrid system based on a suburban and metro network combined.

I also admit that the RER is the closest thing such a hybrid network can be to a full metro (without in my opinion actually being a full metro). It has the high frequencies, it is fully urban, but it is also a network where the larger of it's two sides (metro or suburban) seems still to be getting people from the suburbs to the city. For me, and I have travelled on it quite a bit, it reminds me of the S-bahns in Germany, although far more extensive than most in the central area.

I also know the London Underground goes far out into the suburbs. But the underground still has a massive network in the central area where the bulk of it's passenger traffic is. Therefore, it qualifies as a metro. (There is no doubt the longer lines, especially the metropolitan, operate to being people into the city like a suburban network though) But when one travels around central London, the network certainly doesn't feel commuter in anyway.

As for Sydney, it's a hybrid of three systems. The RER type service in the central area (though lower frequencies), a suburban system in the middle (much like the other suburban systems of Paris) and a regional or local intercity system (like the R-bahns in Germany). In Sydney's case though, it is by far more leaning towards the suburban and Regional network than RER (of the three parts in the hybrid). Few people in Sydney use the system for getting around downtown, almost all use it to get from and to the suburbs or wider metro area.

I would personally love to see the RER certified as a metro. I love the idea of Paris then having the biggest metro system in the world. But in it's current setup, I still see it with three distinctive systems. (I presume there is a 4th regional network above that of which hasn't been discussed where one commutes from further out in the metro or nearby external towns)

And I'll tell you one other thing. Despite all my debating, I actually believe that Paris has the most impressive rail network of any city in the world. Overall, it may not be as large as Tokyo's or London's, but in terms of service, quality and design it certainly is in my opinion the best. It also has some fine history to boot (always important to me in a rail network)

So please don't think my opinion on the RER status is anything derogatory of Paris or it's network.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 01:20 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
(I presume there is a 4th regional network above that of which hasn't been discussed where one commutes from further out in the metro or nearby external towns)
I have heard of one before, would this be what you mean?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TER_%28train_network%29
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Old November 29th, 2005, 04:06 AM   #267
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Sydneysiders might not use the underground part of the network to quickly get around the city because of the lack of zone-based ticketing but us Melburnians will use the Zone 1 daily wherever we can. There's only five stations in the underground loop, but fifteen lines converge there so it makes for a decent service around the CBD grid. I'd like to see RER quality signalling there though - some lines are only shuttles during peak because they can't all fit into the loop.

And I think that the term commuter rail can cause plenty of confusion due to the different uses of the term around the world. We can use it to refer to our suburban systems that generally run both on and off peak at a decent frequency with stops about 1-2km apart on average, with distances increasing as we reach the countryside. Whereas the commuter rail in North America generally runs only in peak at relatively low frequencies with higher capacity trains that have a greater distance between stations, allowing for high speed.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 08:13 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
I also know the London Underground goes far out into the suburbs. But the underground still has a massive network in the central area where the bulk of it's passenger traffic is. Therefore, it qualifies as a metro. (There is no doubt the longer lines, especially the metropolitan, operate to being people into the city like a suburban network though) But when one travels around central London, the network certainly doesn't feel commuter in anyway.
That's exactly the same with the RER. Otherwise I wouldn't have corrected your affirmations. Obviously you don't realize it, but most jobs aren't centered on the City of Paris where is the métro network, they are in the Hauts-de-Seine and the west part of the City of Paris. But even without mentionning this, the RER is clearly used as a subway by Parisians themselves (those living in the historical borders of Paris).

Quote:
As for Sydney, it's a hybrid of three systems. The RER type service in the central area (though lower frequencies), a suburban system in the middle (much like the other suburban systems of Paris) and a regional or local intercity system (like the R-bahns in Germany). In Sydney's case though, it is by far more leaning towards the suburban and Regional network than RER (of the three parts in the hybrid). Few people in Sydney use the system for getting around downtown, almost all use it to get from and to the suburbs or wider metro area.
And this is why the Sydney system can't by no mean be compared with the RER ! As the RER even in the historical Paris, is used as a subway line to transit from one district to another.

Quote:
I would personally love to see the RER certified as a metro. I love the idea of Paris then having the biggest metro system in the world.
Stop with this. The métro with the RER makes only 700 km of network, it's below Tokyo's network for instance. The RER isn't the monster you imagine it is.

Quote:
But in it's current setup, I still see it with three distinctive systems. (I presume there is a 4th regional network above that of which hasn't been discussed where one commutes from further out in the metro or nearby external towns)
I fail to see which regional network you're talking about. There's no TER in Ile-de-France. The suburban rails, known as Transilien, is the most extensive rail system in the region.

Quote:
And I'll tell you one other thing. Despite all my debating, I actually believe that Paris has the most impressive rail network of any city in the world. Overall, it may not be as large as Tokyo's or London's, but in terms of service, quality and design it certainly is in my opinion the best. It also has some fine history to boot (always important to me in a rail network)
Actually, once again I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree. The Parisian network is completely inadapted to the needs of the city. It's based in a 19th century vision of Paris which was already at that time completely screwed up. If so much efforts have been made and so many tunnels have been built since the 70's, it's exactly because of the inadequacy between the supply and the demand in Paris public transportation. And that inadequacy persists today.

Where are the main employment centers in Paris ? They are in a belt around the city of Paris where is the métro : St-Denis, Levallois, Neuilly, La Défense (Courbevoie, Puteaux), Suresnes, Boulogne, Issy-les-Moulineaux. In the City of Paris, only the 17th and the 8th arrondissement are really employment poles. What I try to say is simply that the economical center of Paris is shifted at the West of Paris historical center. And unfortunately, public transportation is based on the historical borders of Paris and as such inadequate to the demand.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 09:32 PM   #269
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I can't believe you are still going on about this. You really seem quite obsessed,

You do realize that this is a thread about the London Underground don't you?
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Old November 29th, 2005, 09:47 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
I can't believe you are still going on about this. You really seem quite obsessed,

You do realize that this is a thread about the London Underground don't you?
I do. And I'm really sorry to have been so off-topic. However I considered it to be polite to answer you.
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Old December 4th, 2005, 07:20 AM   #271
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London Underground - New Strike Threats

Tube network faces new strike threats
By ANDREW TAYLOR
3 December 2005
Financial Times

Large parts of the London Underground are facing severe disruption over Christmas and the new year due to a series of disputes over staffing, safety and working conditions. About 1,800 engineers employed by Metronet, which maintains large parts of the system, will stage three days of strikes in the week beginning December 19 unless a row over contracting out of work is resolved, the RMT transport union warned yesterday.

The union also is to ballot train drivers for industrial action "short of a strike" because of concerns over the contracting-out maintenance work. Station staff are to be balloted in a separate row over the working week. The RMT has threatened a possible strike by station staff on New Year's eve.

Workers on the Docklands Light Railway in London, meanwhile, are to be balloted for industrial action over a pay dispute and could call a strike on January 6 to coincide with the annual Boat Show, said the union. But it has called off a strike on Monday by booking office staff at South Eastern Trains after making progress in a dispute over job losses.
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Old December 4th, 2005, 11:41 AM   #272
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Ah, another year, another raft of strike threats

Interestingly there has only been one network-wide strike since Tim O'Toole took over 3 years ago... Unfortunately the frequent threats if strikes are enough to give the travelling public the impression we're 'always on strike'.
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Old December 4th, 2005, 09:45 PM   #273
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Thats what my impression is on London's underground. I have been reading this guy's blogring everyday and everytime I see, there is some sort of strike. lol.....
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Old December 5th, 2005, 01:56 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfgadv02
Thats what my impression is on London's underground. I have been reading this guy's blogring everyday and everytime I see, there is some sort of strike. lol.....
As I have said, its false really. There's a lot of threats but very little action
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Old December 5th, 2005, 02:50 AM   #275
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Tubeman -

Do you personally feel there is any reason to strike over the disputes cited in the article (i.e., staffing, safety and working conditions)? How about your driver's - are they generally satisfied with their jobs?

Based on your previous posts, it seems like the compensation is quite reasonable. Though I have to say, the thought of someone throwing themselves in front of my train would certainly be one of the hazards of the job.

Best - Kent
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Old December 5th, 2005, 05:02 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
As I have said, its false really. There's a lot of threats but very little action
Thx for clearing that up, I was like why is there a strike like everyday?
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Old December 5th, 2005, 07:13 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quente
Tubeman -

Do you personally feel there is any reason to strike over the disputes cited in the article (i.e., staffing, safety and working conditions)? How about your driver's - are they generally satisfied with their jobs?

Based on your previous posts, it seems like the compensation is quite reasonable. Though I have to say, the thought of someone throwing themselves in front of my train would certainly be one of the hazards of the job.

Best - Kent
Its a good job, no doubt about it. Compared to nurses Tube Drivers are paid huge amounts for what they do.

Most of the strike threats are due to the egos and political aims of the Trade Unions, they do not generally have their staff's best interests at heart. Case in point, immediately after 7/7 the vile Bob Crowe (leader of the RMT Union) started shouting for Guards to be reintroduced whilst mangled bodies were still being pulled out of Tube Trains. Guards would never have prevented suicide bombings and indeed it would be logical for a bomber to stand next to the Guard and so they would be greatly endangered I think. Why did he want them reinstated? 5,000 Guard jobs = 5,000 new RMT members = £600,000 extra per year for RMT coffers through contributions.

The Trade Unions are corrupt gravy trains who expolit their members 100x more that LUL ever could.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 11:47 PM   #278
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Docklands Light Railway London City Airport extension opens

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=615

Mayor opens Docklands Light Railway London City Airport extension

Mayor of London Ken Livingstone and Minister for Transport Karen Buck today opened the Docklands Light Railway extension at the new London City Airport station.

They were joined by Colin Jackson, star of BBC's Strictly Come Dancing and a champion hurdler, Lord Coe and Olympic Gold medallist Denise Lewis.

The London City Airport extension runs from Canning Town to King George V station at North Woolwich via London City Airport, and will play an important part in London's transport plans for the 2012 Olympic Games.

The line has four new stations which now connect local and airport passengers direct into the Tube system at Canning Town.

Mayor Ken Livingstone, said: "The Docklands Light Railway City Airport extension is a vital new transport link which has been delivered on time and on budget.

"We are now starting to see the benefits of Transport for London's £10bn 5-year Investment Programme.

"In December we will be expanding the capacity of the Jubilee line with another carriage on every train.

"The Docklands Light Railway extension will open up access to jobs and housing in the local area".

The 8,000 residents living on the route will have three new stations at West Silvertown, Pontoon Dock and King George V, providing better access to jobs and leisure facilities as well as generating more custom for local businesses.

Passengers flying in and out of London City Airport will also enjoy faster, easier and cheaper journeys into Canary Wharf, the City and central London.

Key transport milestones

Lord Coe, Chairman of London 2012, said: "Having only last week agreed with the International Olympic Committee the key transport milestones towards 2012, this is timely and impressive evidence of London's ability to deliver on its promises.

"London will be ready to host an outstanding Games with progress of other key transport schemes already well underway".

Karen Buck, Transport Minister, said: "People who live and travel in London continue to benefit from the investments in its transport system.

"This is the fourth extension since the DLR opened, improving things still further.

"It will keep on growing - we are already looking forward to the extension to Woolwich.

"One of the reasons behind our successful bid for the 2012 Games was that much of what is needed already exists, or is being built right now."

Jonathan Fox, Director, Docklands Light Railway, said: "This extension is tremendously significant for the Southern Royal Docks area.

"It provides London City Airport with a dedicated rail link into the heart of the City, and will be instrumental in the ongoing regeneration of the local community and the preparations and support for the London 2012 Olympic Games".

The next stage of the Docklands Light Railway expansion is the 2.5km extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich Arsenal, which will provide businesses and local communities with another major boost when it opens in early 2009.

Ends

Notes for editors

Stations and services

All stations on the Docklands Light Railway network provide step-free access to trains. Stations are well integrated with other transport systems with direct interchanges with over 100 bus routes, five mainline railways, eight Underground lines and coach, taxi and riverboat services.

London City Airport station has two entrances, one directly into the airport terminal and another on Drew Road. Both entrances have lift access and there are escalators from the main concourse area

West Silvertown will serve Britannia Village and the Peruvian Wharf development. Pontoon Dock is adjacent to Barrier Park and planned aquarium, 'Biota!'. King George V station is in North Woolwich, sited at the northern end of Pier Road, within walking distance to the Woolwich Ferry

Trains will run every 7-10 minutes, Monday to Saturday 05.30-00.30, Sunday 07.00-23.30. Journey times between the airport and Canary Wharf will be 14 minutes, the City in 22 minutes and central London in 35 minutes

Fares and journey times

As part of the Transport for London network, Docklands Light Railway operates the same zonal fare system as London Underground and London Buses.

Almost 50 per cent of airport passengers use black cabs.
The length and cost of journeys depend on traffic and time of day but comparative costs and journey times include:

Canary Wharf, 3.7 miles - £8.80 by cab, 30 mins; £1.30 by Docklands Light Railway, 14 mins

The City (Bank Station), 6.6 miles - £15.00 by cab, 25 mins; £2.80 by DLR 22 mins

Westminster, 8.6 miles - £20.40 by cab, 35 mins; £2.80 by Docklands Light Railway and Jubilee Line 28 mins

The £140m extension has been designed and built by City Airport Rail Enterprises plc, a joint venture of AMEC plc and the Royal Bank of Scotland under a 30 year Private Finance Initiative concession.

History of Docklands Light Railway

Docklands Light Railway carries more than 51 million passengers a year, a figure forecast to increase to 80 million by 2009. Docklands Light Railway Limited is responsible for planning the railway's future and protecting and developing its assets.
Since the railway opened in 1987, it has been extended on three other occasions: to Bank in 1991, Beckton and the Northern Royal Docks in 1994, and Greenwich and Lewisham in 1999.

Media Enquries: contact Sam Hart/Hilary Merrett in the Mayor's Press Office on 020 7983 4714/4753 or Adi Frost in TfL's press office on 0845 6044141.

Non-media enquiries: contact the Public Liaison Unit on 020 7983 4100

Out-of-hours media enquiries: contact the Duty Press Officer on 020 7983 4000
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Old December 8th, 2005, 01:54 AM   #279
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How many passengers can the city airport handle? It has a lot of potential for charter business flights.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 02:20 AM   #280
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I had the opportunity to take a couple of photos on Saturday. The weather was a little cloudy but here they are: http://mic-ro.com/metro/london-dlr-lca.html
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