daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 21st, 2014, 09:15 PM   #3461
dimlys1994
Moderator
 
dimlys1994's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dniepropetrovsk
Posts: 16,340
Likes (Received): 26131

From London SE1:

Quote:
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7420

TfL considers commercial development above Elephant Tube Station

Thursday 20 February 2014
London SE1 website team

Transport for London is considering how development above the Northern line ticket hall at Elephant & Castle could help meet the cost of new escalators

Last summer Southwark Council revealed that a new funding package for transport improvements at Elephant & Castle – including the removal of the roundabout and the rebuilding of the Northern line ticket hall with escalators rather than lifts – had been agreed with Transport for London and the Greater London Authority.

Now TfL says that it is looking at how "over-site development proposals" could "help strengthen the business case" for the tube station improvements at Elephant & Castle.

The revelation that the air rights above the tube station could be exploited comes in a report prepared for TfL's projects and planning panel, and suggests that the question of the funding of transport infrastructure at the Elephant is not yet fully settled.

Recent indications have been that the entrance to the new Northern line escalators would be integrated into the redevelopment of the Elephant & Castle Shopping Centre planned by its new owners.

New designs for the future road layout at the roundabout will be published next week whilst detailed proposals for the tube station are not expected to be revealed until late next year.
dimlys1994 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 22nd, 2014, 03:47 AM   #3462
Ladiesman020
Registered User
 
Ladiesman020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: East London
Posts: 208
Likes (Received): 41

Stratford is in no way a zone 2 station. It's all the way out past bow and almost into Leyton.
How ever why london proper has 6 fare zones I don't know. It's makes more sense to have 2-3 fare zones. Keep 1, join zone 2&3 into zone 2 and join 4,5&6 into zone 3. Sorted
Ladiesman020 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2014, 09:16 PM   #3463
sk327
Registered User
 
sk327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London, UK
Posts: 767
Likes (Received): 363

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladiesman020 View Post
Stratford is in no way a zone 2 station. It's all the way out past bow and almost into Leyton.
How ever why london proper has 6 fare zones I don't know. It's makes more sense to have 2-3 fare zones. Keep 1, join zone 2&3 into zone 2 and join 4,5&6 into zone 3. Sorted
Well, for us. But they would make less money this way.
sk327 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2014, 07:50 PM   #3464
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

A question: why is the Tube ridership so low, considering it's one of the most extensive networks in the world?
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2014, 08:05 PM   #3465
Manchester77
Registered User
 
Manchester77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3,015
Likes (Received): 807

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
A question: why is the Tube ridership so low, considering it's one of the most extensive networks in the world?
Annual ridership levels of over one billion? So yeah, low..?
Manchester77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #3466
TheMoses
Registered User
 
TheMoses's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 241
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
Annual ridership levels of over one billion? So yeah, low..?
I think what Stravinsky is asking is why it is lower than comparative cities (e.g. NYC, Paris) with smaller networks.

Part of the answer I suspect is the extensive bus network. Buses carry something like 2 billion passengers per year in London (nearly twice what the tube carries). People use the tube to commute and for longer journeys but the bus for shorter journeys. Compare this to Paris where the Metro is much more compacted and stations are close together so it is used for short hop journeys which in London would be done by bus.

Also I'd be interested to see the passenger km for different cities. Business isn't just about the number of journeys.


To illustrate this imagine two cities with identical systems: 1 line with 5 stations.

Imagine in city A each morning 1,000 people get on at one end of the line and travel to the other. They then travel back in the evening. So there are 2,000 journeys per day or 730,000 per year.

In city B 500 people get on each morning at the first station. Then they get off at the second where 500 more people get on. They get off at the third and 500 more get on. Same at the fourth. At the fifth the remaining 500 people get off. This happens in reverse at night. This means there have been 4,000 journeys that day, or 1,460,000 per year.

So the rankings by ridership would look like this:

City B 1,460,000
City A 730,000

But if you were to get on a train in city A it would have 1,000 people on it whereas in city B it would only have 500 people on it. So city A would seem busier even though it has half the ridership.

If instead we use passenger km (and assume the distance between each stop is 250m) then in city A the train travels 2km per day with 1,000 people on at all times, i.e. 2,000 passenger km per day or 730,000 passenger km per year. In city B the train also travels 2km per day but with only 500 people on at any time, i.e. 1,000 passenger km per day or 365,000 passenger km per year.

So the rankings are now:

City A 730,000
City B 365,000


That was kind of long but hopefully it illustrates how ridership doesn't necessarily equate to business. If lots of people make short journeys (as I suspect happens in Paris, and maybe NYC) then it pushes up the ridership stats but at any one time there could be the same or fewer people using the system, making it seem less busy.
__________________

Ivanator, Northridge, Union Man liked this post
TheMoses no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2014, 07:10 AM   #3467
Nouvellecosse
~ Mysterious Entity ~
 
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Halifax, N.S.
Posts: 4,446
Likes (Received): 313

Wow, I made a nearly identical post on SSP only a couple of days ago!

It's amazing how much stuff like this can affect the statistics isn't it?
__________________
.
.
I always think of a new type of cologne brand when I see your name

"Nouvellecosse, by Calvin Klein. Take on the world!"

- MysticMcGoo
Nouvellecosse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2014, 12:34 PM   #3468
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,557

New York has many more track miles and cheaper tickets - both of which help its figures. Ditto night operation and the way tramps can constantly ride the Subway once in.

Also density of the system - the Met line from Moor Park to Amersham and Chesham adds probably about 20km of route, but only 5 stations, all of which are in the Green Belt (though Amersham and Rickmansworth do supply a lot of passengers/passenger miles). While Paris' only goes out to the equivalent of zone 3, and New York is mostly dense inner city areas with a few tentacles into suburbia, probably a third of the Underground's route mileage is in the 20s/30s sprawl that grew up in Middlesex/Essex's fields enlarging the small towns and villages there into one massive city.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2014, 01:17 PM   #3469
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoses View Post
I think what Stravinsky is asking is why it is lower than comparative cities (e.g. NYC, Paris) with smaller networks.

Part of the answer I suspect is the extensive bus network. Buses carry something like 2 billion passengers per year in London (nearly twice what the tube carries). People use the tube to commute and for longer journeys but the bus for shorter journeys. Compare this to Paris where the Metro is much more compacted and stations are close together so it is used for short hop journeys which in London would be done by bus.
Right! Bus and metro fares are the same in Paris. I don't know about NYC.

Anyway this made me think about it. Especially the systems of Moscow, Paris, and Mexico City. Strange though how they push people to take buses as London's (and every other city's) streets are so packed.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 09:33 AM   #3470
CairnsTony
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cairns, Qld.
Posts: 242
Likes (Received): 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Right! Bus and metro fares are the same in Paris. I don't know about NYC.

Anyway this made me think about it. Especially the systems of Moscow, Paris, and Mexico City. Strange though how they push people to take buses as London's (and every other city's) streets are so packed.
There are plenty of routes that the buses serve which the trains don't. I grew up in South London and had Clapham North tube station a stone's throw away. Despite this I used the buses far more often as they got me to places I needed to get to more: Clapham Junction and Brixton for the shops; Streatham for the cinema; Camberwell for my sister's place and so on... Most of the more popular bus routes were high frequency (don't know if this is still the case) so it was simply a case of turn up and go.
CairnsTony no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 09:44 AM   #3471
DaeguDuke
Meat popsicle
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,582
Likes (Received): 1888

The buses are also a lot cheaper if you're travelling during the mornings or evenings as the tube charges "peak fare"
DaeguDuke no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 10:36 AM   #3472
Kolothos
slyscrapercity
 
Kolothos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 2,983
Likes (Received): 768

Mind London's rather extensive Network Rail coverage (Overground, Thameslink, etc..), and buses in the UK are generally well used when compared to other places. Less of a stigma about them.

But, make no mistake, the LUs ridership is by no means low. No way!
Kolothos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #3473
SE9
South East Nine
 
SE9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London
Posts: 34,136
Likes (Received): 61478

Indeed. SE London is dominated by bus and national rail services.
SE9 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 08:35 PM   #3474
Augusto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: PAR THR KL SIN
Posts: 393
Likes (Received): 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoses View Post
I think what Stravinsky is asking is why it is lower than comparative cities (e.g. NYC, Paris) with smaller networks.

Part of the answer I suspect is the extensive bus network. Buses carry something like 2 billion passengers per year in London (nearly twice what the tube carries). People use the tube to commute and for longer journeys but the bus for shorter journeys. Compare this to Paris where the Metro is much more compacted and stations are close together so it is used for short hop journeys which in London would be done by bus.

Also I'd be interested to see the passenger km for different cities. Business isn't just about the number of journeys.


To illustrate this imagine two cities with identical systems: 1 line with 5 stations.

Imagine in city A each morning 1,000 people get on at one end of the line and travel to the other. They then travel back in the evening. So there are 2,000 journeys per day or 730,000 per year.

In city B 500 people get on each morning at the first station. Then they get off at the second where 500 more people get on. They get off at the third and 500 more get on. Same at the fourth. At the fifth the remaining 500 people get off. This happens in reverse at night. This means there have been 4,000 journeys that day, or 1,460,000 per year.

So the rankings by ridership would look like this:

City B 1,460,000
City A 730,000

But if you were to get on a train in city A it would have 1,000 people on it whereas in city B it would only have 500 people on it. So city A would seem busier even though it has half the ridership.

If instead we use passenger km (and assume the distance between each stop is 250m) then in city A the train travels 2km per day with 1,000 people on at all times, i.e. 2,000 passenger km per day or 730,000 passenger km per year. In city B the train also travels 2km per day but with only 500 people on at any time, i.e. 1,000 passenger km per day or 365,000 passenger km per year.

So the rankings are now:

City A 730,000
City B 365,000


That was kind of long but hopefully it illustrates how ridership doesn't necessarily equate to business. If lots of people make short journeys (as I suspect happens in Paris, and maybe NYC) then it pushes up the ridership stats but at any one time there could be the same or fewer people using the system, making it seem less busy.
An other reason should be the timetables: Paris metro close later than London's Tube. Around 1am on the weekdays and 2am on WE. The Tube also starts later: the 25th of december and before 7am on sunday you have to rely on the buses only!!
Augusto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 08:57 PM   #3475
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE9 View Post
Indeed. SE London is dominated by bus and national rail services.
Isn't this quite weird, given the boom of construction projects all over London? The Northern line extension will add a mere 2 stations.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2014, 09:19 PM   #3476
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,977
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Isn't this quite weird, given the boom of construction projects all over London? The Northern line extension will add a mere 2 stations.
Might have to do with the soil conditions on that side of the Thames. More difficult/expensive to put subways in the ground.
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2014, 07:25 PM   #3477
dimlys1994
Moderator
 
dimlys1994's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dniepropetrovsk
Posts: 16,340
Likes (Received): 26131

Today:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...ocurement.html

London Underground starts New Tube for London train procurement
28 Feb 2014

UK: On February 28 London Underground announced that it had placed an OJEU notice inviting expressions of interest in the supply of 250 small-profile trainsets for the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and Waterloo & City lines.

The invitation to tender is expected to be issued in early 2015. According to LU's parent Transport for London, the train procurement offers a 'unique opportunity to develop an iconic design for a new generation of tube trains for service in London for the next 50 years'.

The trains would be 'energy efficient, walk-through and air-cooled', as well as being 'capable of full automation'.

The new trains would form part of the 'New Tube for London' programme of rolling stock, signalling and infrastructure modernisation on lines where work was not commenced under the now defunct Public-Private Partnership at LU.

The overall NTfL programme is priced at 񍖘6bn at 2013 prices, or 1642bn at out-turn prices indexed to 2035-36. This includes risk at 15% and optimism bias at 25%. The Piccadilly Line would be the first to be upgraded.

'Alongside modern signalling, these new trains will modernise and drastically improve capacity on the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and Waterloo & City lines, allowing us to run more frequent and reliable trains, faster and closer together', said LU Managing Director Mike Brown. 'Working with the rail industry, we want the New Tube for London to encompass the very latest technology as well as respecting our design heritage

__________________

geometarkv liked this post
dimlys1994 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2014, 10:13 PM   #3478
dimlys1994
Moderator
 
dimlys1994's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dniepropetrovsk
Posts: 16,340
Likes (Received): 26131

From London SE1:

Quote:
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7429

Reduced lift service at Elephant & Castle tube for six months

Wednesday 26 February 2014
London SE1 website team

London Underground has advised passengers catching the Northern line at Elephant & Castle to use the Bakerloo line entrance in London Road during work to refurbish lifts at the station

Refurbishment work on the lifts from the Northern line ticket hall next to Elephant & Castle Shopping Centre is due to start on Tuesday 4 March and will continue until late September.

"This is crucial work to improve the reliability of the lifts at Elephant & Castle," said Peter McNaught, London Underground's operations director.

"In order to keep the station open and minimise disruption, we will be working on one lift at a time and keeping one lift open in the Northern line ticket hall.

"Customers can avoid queues to enter and leave the station by using the Bakerloo line ticket hall entrance, where three lifts are available.

"The Bakerloo line ticket hall is just on the other side of the roundabout and a walking route will be clearly signed."

LU says that access to the staircase from the Northern line ticket hall will be restricted "for safety reasons".

Tube bosses have also reminded passengers that they can use First Capital Connect train services from Elephant & Castle Railway Station to reach several Northern line destinations including St Pancras International and Kentish Town
__________________

geometarkv liked this post
dimlys1994 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2014, 10:38 PM   #3479
Ladiesman020
Registered User
 
Ladiesman020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: East London
Posts: 208
Likes (Received): 41

Could they run both branches of the northern line thru Mornington Crescent
Ladiesman020 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:15 PM   #3480
Manchester77
Registered User
 
Manchester77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3,015
Likes (Received): 807

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladiesman020 View Post
Could they run both branches of the northern line thru Mornington Crescent
No they couldn't, the station at Mornington Crescent was built on a separate alignment to the section which runs direct to Camden. There are effectively 4 tracks between Camden and Euston however they were built by different companies and in between the two stations run apart from each other so to get all northern line trains calling at Mornington Crescent would either require the closure of the avoiding tunnels channeling all trains from the 4 tracks at Camden into 2 tracks through Mornington creating a bottleneck, or the construction of additional platforms and linking passages and when you add in the fact that the two branches of the northern line will probably be split it becomes a total none issue so really to conclude there is no reason for all northern line trains to call at mornington
Manchester77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
britain, emirates, london, underground

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium