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Old May 9th, 2015, 07:37 PM   #3861
sotonsi
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Originally Posted by Swede View Post
So instead of trains of 3 cars each being articulated in one place and having front/back facing seating the DLR might be getting 1 car trains with (at least?) 5 articulations* and longitudinal seating?
Instead of trains being 3 'cars' that are two cars with walkthrough articulation, it would be six cars with walkthrough articulation
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Oh, and 50% more doors per side (either more doors or wider doors)
Interesting. It is somewhat of a problem on other lines, especially tube stock where the walkway between seats is narrow, but I've never really felt it was an issue on the DLR.

2.25m wide doorways at 1/4 and 3/4 of the way along each car might be the way they do it (giving 14m between the centres of each doorway all the way along the train), rather than 1.5m wide doorways at 1/6, 1/2 and 5/6 of the way (giving centre-centre gaps of 9.14m between doors) along each car.
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Sounds like the DLR is going to get a huge capacity boost.
up to 10% according to the London 2050 report. I assume that's over 3-car trains, though that is to happen 2 years later (presumably a 'when all the new stock arrives' situation).
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Old May 10th, 2015, 10:39 AM   #3862
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I do admit there needs to be a major upgrade between the Canary Wharf and Crossharbour on the DLR in regards to noise pollution. When the trains pass over the bridges, it is uncomfortably loud and I do not know how residents put up with it. I may take a long time to fix that problem but they may consider it in the future with a bigger budget.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 06:12 PM   #3863
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From Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...extension.html

Consumer price index linked bond to fund London Underground extension
11 May 2015



UK: ‘The UK’s first consumer price index linked sterling bond’ has been agreed to part-fund construction of a 3·3 km branch of London Underground’s Northern Line to Battersea, the Greater London Authority and Lloyds Bank Commercial Banking announced on May 11. Specialist pensions insurer Rothesay Life is the sole lender on the £200m transaction.

The GLA held a competitive dialogue with institutional investors which led it to conclude that it would obtain better value for money through bonds linked to CPI rather the traditional retail price index.

The bond issue through LBCB’s local authority financing vehicle Community Finance Co will pay the investor a CPI-linked coupon of 0·34%. LBCB expects this to save the GLA £40m over the next 25 years compared to equivalent fixed-rate borrowing via the Public Works Loan Board, assuming that Bank of England forecasts for inflation over the next 23½ years are correct

...
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Old May 13th, 2015, 03:31 AM   #3864
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Paris beats London when it comes to metro.
London's ubahn barely covers its urban area, and branches out into areas better served by sbahn.
Conversely sbahn is very poorly managed and useless. It covers urban areas too!
London lacks RER and has LRT in place of MRT, and many of its MRT are small and dated.
Hideous system in need of modernizing. At least taper your ubahn, expand it south, and revamp your sbahn.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 10:15 AM   #3865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
Paris beats London when it comes to metro.
London's ubahn barely covers its urban area, and branches out into areas better served by sbahn.
Conversely sbahn is very poorly managed and useless. It covers urban areas too!
London lacks RER and has LRT in place of MRT, and many of its MRT are small and dated.
Hideous system in need of modernizing. At least taper your ubahn, expand it south, and revamp your sbahn.
yes I think Paris is better when compared to London but believe me the size of Underground train is much better than Paris Metro. for inner city I prefer buses because it much more cheaper (2 pound/ride for Oyster) and City of London is so packed with construction (especially Crossrail construction with quite a hassle for Londoners). with the help of Crossrail it will help to ease the passengers load from Underground. RER is not that great especially outer Paris and line C and D which for me does have a lot of branches and it takes a lot of time to wait. I read there will be another two Crossrail going to the South of Thames River in 10 years which I hope the process will be accelerated to help South London to grow as big as its Northern brother.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 11:05 AM   #3866
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The backbone of London's transport system are buses. They cover all of the city.

The Underground and Overground have different, more imprecise roles than the Paris Métro and RER.

An RER line is finally coming, with Crossrail.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 02:19 PM   #3867
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Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
Paris beats London when it comes to metro.
London's ubahn barely covers its urban area
But Paris' 'ubahn' has as few stops outside the inner ring road. The Paris Metro serves about a quarter of the urban area incredibly well, and the other three-quarters not at all. If your main complaint with London's metro is not serving the urban area then the Paris Metro serves far less of the urban area.

Paris needed an RER network in the 70s to serve the rest of the urban area as mediocrely as the tube was serving it's urban area in the 40s (after the New Works)!
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Conversely sbahn is very poorly managed and useless. It covers urban areas too!
God forbid that Stadt-bahn, or city rail, serves the city! But again, you're imposing Germanic concepts that don't really apply to Paris, let alone London.
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London lacks RER
Other than being the world pioneers of it, in 1868... Just because London hasn't seen a need to have special branding for it until recently, doesn't mean it's not been there in it's Underground and other rail networks.
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has LRT in place of MRT
DLR? If so then the Paris Metro is LRT! Density of stops, length of trains, etc are all roughly the same (if not a smidge higher in Paris). Paris Metro is MRT performing the function of LRT/Buses in a tiny area.
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Hideous system in need of modernizing. At least taper your ubahn, expand it south, and revamp your sbahn.
One muzt follow the Deutsche vey jah? Sieg Heil!
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Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
The backbone of London's transport system are buses.
Indeed, and in Paris it is walking. Because the buses are terrible, the metro only serves the equivalent of zones 1 and 2 and the RER/Transilen is more sparse than the Underground/Overground/National Rail lines in the rest of the area.
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The Underground and Overground have different, more imprecise roles than the Paris Métro and RER.
Yes, but skyshakernowlive and others demand we have the same service hierarchy that the Germans have.
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An RER line is finally coming, with Crossrail.
You mean a copy-Paris RER line is finally coming. We had RER functionality before Paris did!
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Old May 13th, 2015, 02:19 PM   #3868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
The backbone of London's transport system are buses. They cover all of the city.

The Underground and Overground have different, more imprecise roles than the Paris Métro and RER.

An RER line is finally coming, with Crossrail.
Relying on buses is poor for a city such as London, buses shouldn't be used for anything other than a short journey in urban areas. They are really only acceptable in suburban and village areas.

My biggest gripe with London's UBahn is how very poorly designed it is. For example its central line has the most weird route going south before it ever heads into London... Surely the worst planning ever? And let's not talk of the hideous size and condition of trains/stations.

Another example would be how poor coverage is in South London, where coverage is by S-Bahn intended for slower commutes in less dense areas. Its S-Bahn is poorly managed and very unreliable, frequently over capacity and generally unusable.

Also, I can't believe London built an LRT instead of a MRT for its UBahn. LRT should be limited to places such as Disneyland and Airports.

Crossrail is a positive but far behind where Paris is now. It reminds me how awful travel in London must be for anyone living on the edge, Heathrow to Central London is nightmare so imagine other airports!

I'm not sure what Overground actually is, it appears to be a ring rail similar to ones in Moscow but acts as ubahn without going underground.

Urban London should already be covered by its 'tube' and less dense areas should mainly be accessible by sbahn. RER and Commuter Rail should link London to its bed towns, while buses should be limited to villages beyond the greenbelt and suburban London. This is what Paris does.

DLR should have never been created, Tram link is a poor substitute, Overground should merge into UBahn, and buses should be less used.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #3869
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But again, you're imposing Germanic concepts that don't really apply to Paris, let alone London.
You mean German, not Germanic. Germanic doesn't mean things from Germany, it means things from all Germanic cultures i.e. German, Dutch, Scandinavian and English speaking ones.

That said, you're spot on! What skyshakernowlive is on about is nonsense. London's differnet types of transit serve differnet purposes than seemingly similar ones in Germany. Like many on this board I've been to several cities with many different takes on public transit. London's is pretty damn good.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 03:14 PM   #3870
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I was under impression that sbahn was the German name for suburban rail?
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Old May 13th, 2015, 03:50 PM   #3871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyshakernowlive View Post
My biggest gripe with London's UBahn is how very poorly designed it is.
As London doesn't have a Ubahn, how can it be poorly designed?
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For example its central line has the most weird route going south before it ever heads into London...
Are you talking about the Epping area? stuff like ground level changes, serving Debden, etc rather than the middle of Epping Forest (protected land) shape the line.
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Another example would be how poor coverage is in South London, where coverage is by S-Bahn
What S-bahn?
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intended for slower commutes in less dense areas.
Is it? The ex-Southern Region Metro services have been intended to provide metro services since the 30s, if not before...

That they might occasionally be called 'suburban rail', but that is for want of an all-encompassing word to separate those national rail services from the longer-distance ones. Again you are taking the English word, translating it into German, and then imputing the German concept onto the English word that doesn't mean the same thing. And then, worst of all, declaring that because services get given this name some of the time, they must be like the S-Bahn in German/Austrian cities.
Quote:
Also, I can't believe London built an LRT instead of a MRT for its UBahn.
Where? It's clear that despite your insistence to not use London's terms, you aren't talking about the DLR, but the Underground.

It's clear that the Underground is mass rapid transit rather than light rapid transit (a definition that hasn't really applied to the DLR for about 20 years).
Quote:
LRT should be limited to places such as Disneyland and Airports.
So why, if London's Underground is LRT according to you, do you say that Paris is fantastic? Paris' system is more 'light' in terms of train size, station spacing, etc.

Paris' steel-wheeled Metro trains are about 75m long (if 5-car). The rubber-tyred(!) Metro trains are typically 6-car (so ~90m long). All are about 2.4m wide.

London Underground tube trains are 2.6m wide, with the sub-surface trains 2.9m wide. All the trains are a good 15m (one Parisian car) longer than Paris Metro trains at minimum (Bakerloo: 113.5m, Central: 130m, Jubilee: 124m, Northern: 106m, Piccadilly: 106m, Victoria: 133m, S7: 117m, S8: 134m). Oh, the DLR runs 84m long trains on most of it's network. They are 2.6m wide - it's on a par with Paris.
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Crossrail is a positive but far behind where Paris is now. It reminds me how awful travel in London must be for anyone living on the edge,
I live on the edge. I'd rather be on the edge here, than in Paris, where the network is more sparse, and the service levels only equivalent to the poorer service levels in South London.
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buses should be less used.
In Paris, they walk instead. Is that really better???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
You mean German, not Germanic. Germanic doesn't mean things from Germany, it means things from all Germanic cultures i.e. German, Dutch, Scandinavian and English speaking ones.
True, but I wanted to include Austria and German-speaking Switzerland that works on a similar Ubahn/Sbahn mindset.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 05:34 PM   #3872
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
We had RER functionality before Paris did!
The hell you want from me? I was supporting you! skyshakernowlive was applying concepts to different cities (such as the Underground being underdeveloped in certain areas, because it's mainly by buses, and commuter trains in the South, that the city is served). No transport system can be applied to all cities.

I don't understand why you keep on comparing systems in terms of size, extension, or train length. London, Paris, or Berlin all have a different history.

That said, London Underground lines are universally classified as metro, not as an express suburban service. Crossrail will be, as it is an entirely different concept.

DLR is also typically classified as metro, not as light rail. So is Paris Métro.

Last edited by Stravinsky; May 14th, 2015 at 12:09 PM.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 06:36 PM   #3873
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Crossrail will be, as it is an entirely different concept.
Linking Paddington and Liverpool Street's rail services via a tunnel across Central London?

Hardly a new concept: the Metropolitan Railway had it in 1875, though the Parliamentary decree that they had to build the Inner Circle put paid to trains getting further east than Liverpool Street's platforms. Between the wars there were Windsor-Southend District line services and then, delayed by WW2, the Central line running West Ruislip to Epping over a widened GWR alignment and the GER tracks.

And while perpendicular to Crossrail, Muswell Hill to Crystal Palace services were running via the Snow Hill tunnel 147 years ago!

I know you were on my side, you just weren't on my side enough when you said that London is finally getting RER with Crossrail, like we're playing catch up to Paris, when the RER was them playing catch up to the better provision of rail in outer London. Even if you ignore Underground, and pre-WW1, services, then Thameslink reopened in the 80s.

Paris needed the RER because it's metro is slow with short and narrow trains and little distance between stops. Sure, London was foolish to extend its not very tall tube-gauge trains to the edges of town, but the main purpose of both Crossrail and the RER network is to take services out of termini and distribute those passengers across the CBD without the need for a change: London has been doing that for years.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 06:42 PM   #3874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
The hell you want from me? I was supporting you! skyshakernowlive was applying concepts to different cities (such as the Underground being underdeveloped in certain areas, because it's mainly by buses, and commuter trains in the South, that the city is served). No transport system can be applied to all cities.

I don't understand why you keep on comparing systems in terms of size, extension, or train length. London, Paris, or Berlin all have a different history.

That said, London Underground lines are universally classified as metro, not as an express suburban service. Crossrail will be, as it is an entirely different concept.

DLR is also typically classified as metro, not as light rail.

The central line flaw was in West London, where the line heads south for no reason except to waste time, such a line is better covered by bus (if low frequency) or sbahn. Let's not forget how crampt and annoying London's ubahn trains are!

I'm not comparing London and Paris in purpose, I'm neither French or in France, I just feel Paris has invested far more into its 'metro system' than London has. DLR is still embarrassing, they should have built such a line to MRT standards, its as slow as a turtle and lacks several features of a MRT.

Since 'metro' can mean several things (I usually use such term to denote the entire metropolitan transport network) I prefer to use more specific names.

IMO, DLR is part of LU and is therefore ubahn, but it is still a LRT system due to lack of MRT features.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 08:14 PM   #3875
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DLR embarrassing? Really? The same DLR that is improving and growing each year? Where it takes the stress off of buses, tube and rail. Where areas are being regenerated and not look like a wasteland over 20 years ago?

Yeah Paris may be better in your eyes but London does what it can with the lack of space. Both the South east and North east of London are getting major transport upgrade to help the regions with jobs and easier commute.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 08:58 PM   #3876
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I honestly don't know why this guy is trolling so much, but if he continues he will not last long for this board. He appears to have taken particular exception to London too, as he's used far harsher words about the city here compared to others.

But then he clearly knows nothing. You should see the posts he made in the Tokyo thread telling Tokyo of all cities that it needs to copy Paris.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 10:27 PM   #3877
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Indeed, and in Paris it is walking. Because the buses are terrible...
I don't really know that much about buses in Paris (or London for that matter), but from what I read I find i highly unlikely that Paris buses are (that much) worse than in London. I'd wager that the higher amount of walking in Paris is more due to London being a terrible place to walk in.

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In Paris, they walk instead. Is that really better???
From an environmental perspective definitely.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 10:37 PM   #3878
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I don't really know that much about buses in Paris (or London for that matter), but from what I read I find i highly unlikely that Paris buses are (that much) worse than in London. I'd wager that the higher amount of walking in Paris is more due to London being a terrible place to walk in.

From an environmental perspective definitely.
Europe generally has horrid streets but Paris is blessed with a set of good roads.

In the urban core, I think being forced to use a bus for a journey that by tube would be over three/four stations is poor transport planning. Buses should only ever be used for very short journeys or to get oneself to the nearest transport station.

London suffers from hideous road congestion to the point I wonder why people use buses there! Nothing short of an investment into segregated public transport will solve their problem. Even turning some roads into a BRT might help, but anything must involve reducing bus usage in urban core.
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Old May 14th, 2015, 12:34 AM   #3879
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Linking Paddington and Liverpool Street's rail services via a tunnel across Central London?

Hardly a new concept: the Metropolitan Railway had it in 1875, though the Parliamentary decree that they had to build the Inner Circle put paid to trains getting further east than Liverpool Street's platforms. Between the wars there were Windsor-Southend District line services and then, delayed by WW2, the Central line running West Ruislip to Epping over a widened GWR alignment and the GER tracks.

And while perpendicular to Crossrail, Muswell Hill to Crystal Palace services were running via the Snow Hill tunnel 147 years ago!

I know you were on my side, you just weren't on my side enough when you said that London is finally getting RER with Crossrail, like we're playing catch up to Paris, when the RER was them playing catch up to the better provision of rail in outer London. Even if you ignore Underground, and pre-WW1, services, then Thameslink reopened in the 80s.

Paris needed the RER because it's metro is slow with short and narrow trains and little distance between stops. Sure, London was foolish to extend its not very tall tube-gauge trains to the edges of town, but the main purpose of both Crossrail and the RER network is to take services out of termini and distribute those passengers across the CBD without the need for a change: London has been doing that for years.
Crossrail will allow for fast transport acros the city. The possibility already exists, but its opening will truly revolution London I think.

Actually, the RER is the only true advantage Paris has on London. And the RER itself was inspired by a concept in which Germans were, in fact, pioneers. Its lines were also inaugurated in a period of great economic growth, and the French government has always had a different approach to public spending than the British, adding to the differences through which it's difficult to draw comparisons.

That said, London has a very peculiar and efficient transport system. I'd still appreciate though to be able to get from Heathrow to the centre in half an hour as I do in Paris, without paying £15. Crossrail will do that.

On a side note, the DLR is not the principal transport infrastructure of the city and it's still quite successful (even though not immediate to navigate).
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Old May 14th, 2015, 12:38 AM   #3880
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Europe generally has horrid streets but Paris is blessed with a set of good roads.
Again, not every city had Haussmann to open radial boulevards and main axes.
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