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Old October 3rd, 2015, 10:57 PM   #4001
arctic_carlos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
If you would like to be.

To finish off this subject though, can anyone tell me why a line name is any less easy than a number or letter? Note that around the world many countries name their highways - so in Australia you might be driving on the Bruce Highway, the Ventura Freeway in LA, the Massachusetts Turnpike in Boston etc etc. Same difference for rail lines.
I don't know exactly why, but in the last few years there has been a growing number of cities that have started adopting numbers for their metro lines, which previously had names. I'm thinking about Toronto or Taipei. And there are plans to introduce letters in Los Angeles, where currently colors are used to call metro lines. In Moscow both line numbers and names are used.

At least for tourists or people who don't speak the local language, letters or numbers are easier to memorize than names. That's maybe not a problem in London, where line names are usually short and consisting of a single word (with the exception of Hammersmith & City and Waterloo & City lines). But for a non-Russian speaker it can be really difficult to learn the long names of Moscow's metro lines.
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Old October 4th, 2015, 02:14 AM   #4002
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Originally Posted by Skalka View Post
How do the night-service-doable lines differ from the rest? I mean, there's always a need for maintenance. Please elaborate.
Most of the network is over 100 years old and thus needs intensive maintenance, however ongoing recent work has sought to modernise the network, while other recent work has sought to increase capacity. Often these works have been concurrent.

Some (Bakerloo line) is not yet upgraded to a state whereby it can forego two nights maintenance a week to run Night Tube services.

Others (SSLs, Northern Bank branch) need the downtime every night to minimise closures during the day while they are upgraded for capacity reasons.
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If you talk about West End, the City and the Docklands being several different downtowns of London (one for night, one for day, one as an extra),
All are for day. The West End has a lot of offices, but is also the retail, cultural (though that spills into Westminster) and nightlife hub - Oxford Street, Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, Theatreland, Soho...

The City is the HQ of the financial industry, and has a lot of the legal industry, etc. It's almost entirely office buildings.

Docklands is City overspill (also see La Defense in Paris), but they wanted it to be more vibrant in evenings than merely some pubs (ie the case with The City).

And 'if you talk' - it's a fact: London has multiple major business districts (just like how New York has Midtown and Downtown).
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it somehow shows why Crossrail 1 is only now under construction:
Crossrail 1 is only now under construction because it was only invented in the 80s and jumped the queue over other corridors' proposals. Stuff normally takes 25 years from proposal to sod turning at best and this was about that length of time.

It then needed a long time to build because it is a massive project.

Or are you talking about the idiotic 'catch up with Paris' stuff, that doesn't understand that London simply got it's Underground to do RER functions and the issue is one of branding, rather than anything else.
Quote:
As the children of the Little Englanders became urban nightcrawlers and a political and economic force, only then did Crossrail 1 materialize in order to merge the three downtowns into one.


(and that's about as polite as I can be about that barrage of nonsense).
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Old October 4th, 2015, 02:29 AM   #4003
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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
I don't know exactly why, but in the last few years there has been a growing number of cities that have started adopting numbers for their metro lines, which previously had names.
Manchester's just started using letters. Though there were never really names before that, outside of terminal destinations (eg Bury - Altrincham).

Likewise LA's were merely colours rather than actual names.

Places like Hong Kong and Singapore have multiple systems: partially as they have multiple languages and two different alphabets in play.
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(with the exception of Hammersmith & City and Waterloo & City lines).
They really are bad names. What unimaginative idiots LUL were in the 80s and 90s when naming them!

You can (pretty easily) navigate Central London just using the colours of the lines and station names. Colour-blindness would cause some issues, but they are pretty much entirely overcome-able in the centre. It isn't as easy as line names, but it's not difficult.
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Old October 4th, 2015, 03:09 AM   #4004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
I don't know exactly why, but in the last few years there has been a growing number of cities that have started adopting numbers for their metro lines, which previously had names. I'm thinking about Toronto or Taipei. And there are plans to introduce letters in Los Angeles, where currently colors are used to call metro lines. In Moscow both line numbers and names are used.

At least for tourists or people who don't speak the local language, letters or numbers are easier to memorize than names. That's maybe not a problem in London, where line names are usually short and consisting of a single word (with the exception of Hammersmith & City and Waterloo & City lines). But for a non-Russian speaker it can be really difficult to learn the long names of Moscow's metro lines.
Even Muscovites don't use line names in daily conversation. Don't ask me for reliable source, maybe I read that from another Moscow Metro map designer. If you open the St. Petersburg Metro official map, it no longer shows the classic line names which Wikipedia articles still use.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Places like Hong Kong and Singapore have multiple systems: partially as they have multiple languages and two different alphabets in play.[
Hong Kong MTR was initially designed by British Tube experts so it's natural that both the Tube and MTR share the similar naming scheme. But I have to admit that the lack of numbering/lettering for the lines can be tricky for the tourists. They won't be able to pronounce the romanized Cantonese names comprehensibly because the romanization system doesn't distinguish between aspirated and unaspirated consonants. While they can still refer to the line by color, many Chinese Hongkongers have a hard time to distinguish between "purple/magenta" (West Rail Line) and "violet" (Tseung Kwan O Line).
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Old October 4th, 2015, 04:00 AM   #4005
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post


(and that's about as polite as I can be about that barrage of nonsense).
I have to admit that I somehow... escalated. If you got to meet me in meatspace, you'd go ballistic, I swear. But in order to stay literally ballistic, the Docklands would've made a great replacement city if the centre of London would've ever gotten nuked. If the Docklands had been unscathed and the fallout somehow eased, that is.

No, I'm not one of the wonks that scream "catch up with Paris" because it was Paris that needed to catch up in the first place and London actually had something like RER with its SSL network as it fits the mainline railway profile and I often find it amazing when I see how some Underground lines reach far out of London and all of this with this condensed tube stock. I only say that London feels quite late building its first crossrail (not mentioning Thameslink, that was easier) as I'm from Germany and some big cities here got their own ones in the 1970s and the latest made up for lost time after 40 years of GDR and also picked up somewhere that the first idea of a crossrail with a route similar to the one built now came up right after the war.

Why did I say Little Englander? May I shouldn't have and rather said English Gentlemen. He came with his hat, his umbrella and his suit, worked as a banker and descended at one of London's terminals in the City, changing to the tube if not already walking the last mile, his Rolls Royce staying at home and functioning for pleasure and not for showing off. I shouldn't have said urban nightcrawler, rather said modern financial banker at Canary Wharf, only coming in dress shirt and trousers, even lacking the tie, and descending into the Jubilee Line for going home, later Crossrail and if enough crossrails would've been built, some guys could have gone nuts and replaced all London termini with Old Oak Common and Stratford International and made the old gentelman and common sense cry about the fate of the disused termini. Of course, London isn't Berlin and it wasn't crossrails that killed its termini, but world politics. Nevertheless, I sometimes have this fantasy of London merging all its terminals into one. Of course, it's insane and will never happen. I hope so.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 10:42 AM   #4006
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post

You can (pretty easily) navigate Central London just using the colours of the lines and station names. Colour-blindness would cause some issues, but they are pretty much entirely overcome-able in the centre. It isn't as easy as line names, but it's not difficult.
Line names are not the only problem. Most lines in London are actualy several lines that share a name and tracks in the center, but have different termini. It would be ideal to split them by giving them unique designations.

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Old October 5th, 2015, 02:03 PM   #4007
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Most lines in London are actualy several lines that share a name and tracks in the center, but have different termini.
No.
1) 5 out of 11 is not 'most'
2) I'd hardly call Harrow, Acton or Leytonstone 'central'.
3) Several lines that share tracks describes the SSLs rather than the Met.

Some lines in London have services that branch off in Outer London. These branches are part of the same line. There's also the Northern line where there's a big mess.
Quote:
It would be ideal to split them by giving them unique designations.
They already have unique designations, just aren't shown as such on the tube map to stop it being a mess. The displays on platform tell you which service is coming. This also works for short-turning services on lines that are linear.
Quote:
Changing colours isn't going to be endearing and it's only showing off peak services - most notably, the Northern line, but also Hainault via Woodford.

There's a reason London went with grouping services into lines and New York's horrifically complex and difficult-to-use map with all its peak only stuff shows it was a good decision.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 09:05 PM   #4008
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I personally find that NYC's map is quite easy and intuitive to use. And it does have an advantage in being easier to use for finding one's way between various services.
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Old October 5th, 2015, 09:22 PM   #4009
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Yellow things on the wall and weird theodolite

Chaps,

When entering the Bakerloo line at Paddington (station entrance to the Bakerloo ticket hall) I've seen some strange equipments. Went back a few pages to see if there was any reference to them and there was none. So, of anyone can help satisfy my curiosity, what are those yellow balls with a orange glass on the wall in sets of four (high and low, left and right), facing the flow of people?

Also, at the lower end of the escalators, I've seen something up in the tunnel that is a mix of a camera and a theodolite with a screen that usually moves around. Any clue?

Thanks!
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Old October 5th, 2015, 09:31 PM   #4010
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Originally Posted by recacon View Post
Chaps,

When entering the Bakerloo line at Paddington (station entrance to the Bakerloo ticket hall) I've seen some strange equipments. Went back a few pages to see if there was any reference to them and there was none. So, of anyone can help satisfy my curiosity, what are those yellow balls with a orange glass on the wall in sets of four (high and low, left and right), facing the flow of people?

Also, at the lower end of the escalators, I've seen something up in the tunnel that is a mix of a camera and a theodolite with a screen that usually moves around. Any clue?

Thanks!
I am pretty sure you will find them all over the network - they are there to check for subsidence and movement of the track & tunnels. They will be automatically taking readings
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Old October 6th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #4011
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Northern line extension to Battersea preparation continues:

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Old October 13th, 2015, 08:21 PM   #4012
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Consultation on new Cadmen Town station redevelopment plans has been launched:
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/ne...-have-your-say
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tub...n-town-upgrade
http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015...ation-upgrade/







Proposed changes:
  • New second entrance and exit to the station
  • More escalators
  • Step-free access from the street to trains
  • More space to change between trains

I really hope that these plans will move forward
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Old October 13th, 2015, 09:07 PM   #4013
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Me too, Camden town is a much unloved station as it gets awfully crowded.
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Old October 14th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #4014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
Consultation on new Cadmen Town station redevelopment plans has been launched:
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/ne...-have-your-say
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tub...n-town-upgrade
http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015...ation-upgrade/







Proposed changes:
  • New second entrance and exit to the station
  • More escalators
  • Step-free access from the street to trains
  • More space to change between trains

I really hope that these plans will move forward
Unless it a fair trade, vegan, organically grown station made from craft ethically sourced materials and using building techniques from the 1820's then they wont be happy.

BTW It does need doing and has to be done if they want to split the northern line
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Old October 14th, 2015, 12:54 PM   #4015
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BTW It does need doing and has to be done if they want to split the northern line
I was surprised I didn't find any place were this was mentioned. Isn't that one of the primary purposes for this? To be able to split Northern Line into two, which by the way seems like a very logical and obvious step.
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Old October 14th, 2015, 01:16 PM   #4016
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I was surprised I didn't find any place were this was mentioned. Isn't that one of the primary purposes for this? To be able to split Northern Line into two, which by the way seems like a very logical and obvious step.
People will complain a lot about the split if (and when) it happens

Quote:
To get beyond 30tph through Camden Town probably requires some kind of centralised supervising software (generally known as Automatic Train Control – ATC) to optimise train speed on approach to junctions to ensure maximum throughput. The current signalling contract for the Northern Line did not include ATC which has yet to exist on this manufacturer’s product. The SSR resignalling will have to include it to cater for the complex multiple junctions such as Praed Street.
It should be noted, as regular readers are aware, that the LU preferred solution appears to be to completely separate the Northern Line into two independent tube lines. These lines could then potentially be run at 36tph without resorting to ATC. Because separating the branches will result in a lot of people changing trains at Camden Town station, this cannot take place before Camden Town station is rebuilt in 2024.
http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...or-the-future/
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Old October 14th, 2015, 06:40 PM   #4017
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People will complain a lot about the split if (and when) it happens
Yet it needs to be split. It's painful to use as it is.
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Old October 14th, 2015, 06:41 PM   #4018
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understand that London simply got it's Underground to do RER functions
Oh, why are they building Crossrail A then?
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Old October 14th, 2015, 07:31 PM   #4019
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Yet it needs to be split. It's painful to use as it is.
I am lucky - I am in Edgeware and get a seat
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Old October 14th, 2015, 07:37 PM   #4020
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Oh, why are they building Crossrail A then?
Crossrail A? Oh, you mean 'Crossrail', sometimes called 'Crossrail 1'.

They are building it because London needs additional e-w capacity across it's core and building a tube-gauge line makes little sense these days. They are building it to improve access to Heathrow and Canary Wharf, which could have been done (as it currently is) by tube lines. They are building it to relieve tube lines (a function that can, and has, been done by tube lines - cf Victoria line and Line 14 in Paris).

Paris built it's RER because it's Metro's density of stops meant it took ages to cross the centre, and the lines couldn't get far out - it was needed to serve the outer areas and inter-terminal journeys across the city.

London did stuff like the New Works in the 20s and 30s (and with the construction of the SSLs and Snow Hill route a hundred years before the RER) that removed suburban railways from termini, and put them through the centre.
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