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Old August 27th, 2016, 03:19 AM   #4201
Fabio1976
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Isn't absolutely true that London tube can't have a 24/7 service for mateinance jobs, because many lines of the NYC subway have ONLY 2 TRACKS ( 7-G -L- J-S etc ) and they are 24/7 and the maintenance jobs are performed late night ON A SINGLE TRACK, while the other track is in service for both directions. And the same thing happens for the L in Chicago and for the Metro in Copenaghen. These 2 rapid transit HAVE ONLY 2 TRACKS in their whole system. And even the Path and the Staten Island Railroad ( other 2 important rapid transit in NYC... ) and the PATCO ( it isn't a metro, but an important railroad ) in Philadelphia are 24/7 and they are ONLY 2 TRACKS..... It is only an excuse.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 04:07 AM   #4202
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I wasn't aware SIRT was 24/7. Its relatively rural.

And PATCO is most definitely a metro. That's the legal definition and everything. And that's how people treat it.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 04:14 AM   #4203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabio1976 View Post
Isn't absolutely true that London tube can't have a 24/7 service for mateinance jobs, because many lines of the NYC subway have ONLY 2 TRACKS ( 7-G -L- J-S etc ) and they are 24/7 and the maintenance jobs are performed late night ON A SINGLE TRACK, while the other track is in service for both directions. And the same thing happens for the L in Chicago and for the Metro in Copenaghen. These 2 rapid transit HAVE ONLY 2 TRACKS in their whole system. And even the Path and the Staten Island Railroad ( other 2 important rapid transit in NYC... ) and the PATCO ( it isn't a metro, but an important railroad ) in Philadelphia are 24/7 and they are ONLY 2 TRACKS..... It is only an excuse.
I agree. Same with São Paulo, our city would benefit with 24/7 Metrô service even if trains ran at 20-minute intervals between midnight and 4:40am (current opening time).
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Old August 27th, 2016, 05:32 AM   #4204
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I really don't think partygoers should be catered for with public funds.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 06:02 AM   #4205
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I really don't think partygoers should be catered for with public funds.
First of all, there's the fact that a lot of the ridership aren't partying at all. Many late-night riders are people who work odd hours, like janitors. A large portion are relatively economically disadvantaged.

Second of all, the partygoers generate revenue through the taxes on the various drinks they buy at the clubs and the like. The improved nightlife can attract more tourists and can be an overall economic benefit for the community.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 09:08 AM   #4206
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
First of all, there's the fact that a lot of the ridership aren't partying at all. Many late-night riders are people who work odd hours, like janitors. A large portion are relatively economically disadvantaged.

Second of all, the partygoers generate revenue through the taxes on the various drinks they buy at the clubs and the like. The improved nightlife can attract more tourists and can be an overall economic benefit for the community.
They can provide late night bus substitutes instead.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 01:01 PM   #4207
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I'm not sure what Svartmetall is saying, but everything I've seen and heard is that Tokyo shuts down at midnight when the trains stop running. There are a few things open, but its a VERY tiny segment.
Actually, this was moved from a skybar discussion on this topic. I didn't even know my post was here until today.

Have you been to Tokyo after rail closure? The amount of 24h entertainment in the entertainment areas is quite surprising. There are plenty of bars, izakayas, karaoke establishments, manga cafes etc to keep you entertained (though many izakayas actually close at 4am or so). If not, the capsule hotels and short stay hotels are there to cater for people who are stranded after hours.

It is not such a tiny segment of the economy, otherwise one would not see so many establishments catering for the "after last train" segment of the population.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 04:03 PM   #4208
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Originally Posted by Fabio1976 View Post
Isn't absolutely true that London tube can't have a 24/7 service for mateinance jobs, because many lines of the NYC subway have ONLY 2 TRACKS ( 7-G -L- J-S etc ) and they are 24/7 and the maintenance jobs are performed late night ON A SINGLE TRACK, while the other track is in service for both directions.
Which is fine if your network mostly consists of cut-and-cover tunnels and surface tracks with frequent crossovers so you can have single track running on a short bit to allow you to keep your mostly-3tph nighttime services going.

London's isn't like that - if you had single track running on the Central line, then there are crossovers at Queensway and Bethnal Green (OK, you might be able to rework the reversing sidings at Marble Arch, British Museum and Liverpool Street), so you might get a train each way every 40 minutes or so. A 15 minute service (which is really the bare minimum for useful service in London) is barely possible.

A lot of the time, the tracks are above each other. Even with the newer lines that didn't need to follow the streets above (and so the tunnels could run next to each other) have few crossovers.

In the UK, there was a few high-profile fatalities of maintenance workers working on live railways where single-track running was in place while they worked on the other track. Thus even in the places where this is possible, it's not going to happen as it's not only now illegal, but the public would be on the side of the unions' 'safety concerns' strikes - which they normally are not.

Add in that the tube, even after the massive modernisation programme that will have pretty much rebuilt the network, runs more intensively than the New York Subway (most core tracks only see the low 20s/high teens as peak frequency, and the inter-peak service is significantly less than the peak, unlike in London. Even a high frequency line like the 7 drops from 27tph at peak times to 10tph outside it).
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And the same thing happens for the L in Chicago
Similar set up to New York - laxer safety rules, ability to have short sections of single track running due to track layout.
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the Metro in Copenaghen.
A Metro that isn't even 15 years old, rather than the 150 that London's is. Also it's automatic, so the labour disputes that caused issues with getting Night Tube up and running
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It is only an excuse.
The DC Metro's obsession with later running over maintenance shows that it's not merely an excuse, but a legitimate safety concern, given they have suffered the consequences of that neglect of maintenance tragically several times now.
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Old August 27th, 2016, 04:08 PM   #4209
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They can provide late night bus substitutes instead.
London's extensive Night Bus network is one reason why Night Tube wasn't a serious aim until a couple of years ago when the New York-born Mayor decided he wanted it (and, while they still aren't sure about what the demand actually is, TfL's numbers suggest that it was a good idea).
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Old August 28th, 2016, 02:09 AM   #4210
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Originally Posted by whatsuplucas View Post
I agree. Same with São Paulo, our city would benefit with 24/7 Metrô service even if trains ran at 20-minute intervals between midnight and 4:40am (current opening time).
Why you don't organize a petition ?
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Old August 28th, 2016, 03:14 AM   #4211
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The cause for DC's maintenance issues was at a deeper, systemic, level.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 10:45 AM   #4212
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The cause for DC's maintenance issues was at a deeper, systemic, level.
Absolutely, but one of the things they chased in the "death spiral" instead of maintaining the system was later running, which made the problem worse - not just because it took money away from maintenance, but also made maintenance harder.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 03:21 PM   #4213
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Latter running was a small matter compared to overall budget cuts, insistence on on-time performance at the expense of maintenance, and prioritizing station renovation.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:28 AM   #4214
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Latter running was a small matter compared to overall budget cuts, insistence on on-time performance at the expense of maintenance, and prioritizing station renovation.
Yes, though late running was still an important part of it, with the Metro not allowed to close early to maintain it due to the political desire for late running.

However, my main point with bringing up DC is that maintenance is important - which is pretty clearly the case. It's not some 'excuse' as Fabio suggests.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 02:04 PM   #4215
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I'll concede the point that its not an excuse.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 09:01 PM   #4216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
First of all, there's the fact that a lot of the ridership aren't partying at all. Many late-night riders are people who work odd hours, like janitors. A large portion are relatively economically disadvantaged.

Second of all, the partygoers generate revenue through the taxes on the various drinks they buy at the clubs and the like. The improved nightlife can attract more tourists and can be an overall economic benefit for the community.
And to add one more thing they use to say as a positive thing here in Vienna about the night subway is, that it's more safe for 'party-people' when they know there's a night subway, because they tend to use that instead of driving the car drunk.
Of course many of those do use cabs, and still do, but... well, as said, I just add one thing they call out here as one more reason why at least on weekends, it's a good thing.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 03:45 PM   #4217
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The London Underground has the best opening hours in Europe.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 05:49 PM   #4218
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The London Underground has the best opening hours in Europe.
Citation needed.

As pointed out above, the Vienna subway runs from 5am to after midnight Sun-Thurs, 24 Fri/Sat. Ditto Copenhagen. Berlin has longer weekday opening hours - 4am to 1am, S-bahn and U-bahn run 24 Fri and Sat (but not U4).

London is about 5am to midnight, with very limited 24 hours opening which just started, even when every line is open overnight on the weekend it will probably be 3rd/4th in Europe?
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Old August 31st, 2016, 06:35 PM   #4219
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Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
Citation needed.

As pointed out above, the Vienna subway runs from 5am to after midnight Sun-Thurs, 24 Fri/Sat. Ditto Copenhagen. Berlin has longer weekday opening hours - 4am to 1am, S-bahn and U-bahn run 24 Fri and Sat (but not U4).

London is about 5am to midnight, with very limited 24 hours opening which just started, even when every line is open overnight on the weekend it will probably be 3rd/4th in Europe?
Copenhagen metro runs 24/7/365
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Old August 31st, 2016, 07:04 PM   #4220
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Copenhagen metro runs 24/7/365
Ah, my apologies, it runs reduced overnight, read that as opening hours. So London is still far behind.
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