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Old March 10th, 2005, 04:32 AM   #121
Jayayess1190
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The Tube is AWSOME!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old March 11th, 2005, 09:36 AM   #122
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London Subway Lines May Be Closed for 'Months'

March 10 (Bloomberg) -- London's Waterloo & City and Northern subway lines, which serve more than 700,000 passengers every weekday, may be shut for "months" at a time for maintenance and upgrading work, the system's owner said.

London Underground Ltd. is considering the benefits of closing the lines for periods beyond the current overnight and weekend shutdowns, which restrict the amount of work that can be done, Managing Director Tim O'Toole told the London Assembly's Transport Committee today.

Tube Lines Ltd. and Metronet, which have 30-year contracts to maintain and upgrade the subway, are struggling to improve the network while continuing to operate a service for its 3 million daily passengers. Closing lines for longer periods would allow more work to be done to improve the world's oldest and Europe's largest underground rail network.

"It's the kind of thing we are willing to do if we see we are going to get the payback," O'Toole said of the proposed line closures. Terry Morgan, chief executive of Tube Lines Ltd., which is responsible for work on the Northern Line, said he has given London Underground a proposal that includes plans for longer shutdowns. He declined to say how long, though said the line may be split into seven sections and closed in turn.

The Northern Line, the system's busiest, carries about 710,000 passengers a day. It extends from Morden in south London to High Barnet and Edgware in the north, via two routes: one through the City and the other through London's West End theater district. The Waterloo & City line, which is the responsibility of Metronet, operates a non-stop shuttle service from Waterloo rail station to Bank in the capital's financial district, known as the City. It carries more than 40,000 people a day.

"Clearly it's going to be a great concern for London businesses," Dan Bridgett, a spokesman for London Chamber of Commerce, said in a telephone interview. "But we have been calling for a long time for new investment in the Tube, so provided its going to result in tangible benefits, perhaps it's a price we have to pay."

Parts of the Northern Line are "driving us all nuts," said O'Toole, who during the past two weekends has closed the City branch of the line for maintenance work. Closing the line for longer periods of time would cut short the work program by about two years, Tube Lines' Morgan said.

Brian Cooke, chairman of London Transport Users Committee, said research carried out by the group had shown that commuters were prepared to put up with such a closure if it produced "tangible" results.

If the shut down is properly planned and London Underground gives out details of alternative travel arrangements, "commuters will actually welcome" it, Cooke said in an interview. "One has to accept that there is going to be pain to get the gain."
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Old March 11th, 2005, 10:17 AM   #123
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^Well, if it brings the improvements ahead as far as they claim, then maybe it's not a bad thing. But it would be a hassle of cause.
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Old March 11th, 2005, 10:18 AM   #124
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Can someone post photos of the first lines and stations?
Thanks!
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Old March 11th, 2005, 07:38 PM   #125
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Was looking for some pictures - but found these ones instead









































Baker Street - one of the oldest underground stations on the planet:





One of the more interesting stations in London, Clapham Common:
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Old March 11th, 2005, 09:01 PM   #126
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Nick, you found some of the best photo's of the underground I have seen!
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Old March 12th, 2005, 05:11 AM   #127
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They're great! Agreed

redstone; Baker Street is THE oldest Metro / Subway station in the World (jointly)

It opened in 1863 on the Metropolitan Railway between Paddington and Farringdon Street. I posted an engraving of Baker Street back then elsewhere; I'll try to find it.
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Old March 12th, 2005, 05:26 AM   #128
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*Bump*

Because its a good thread
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Old March 12th, 2005, 10:48 AM   #129
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What makes the photos Nick posted so amazing is that they were originally Black and White pictures, and the amount of time that the photographer must have spent to colourise them is unbelievable.
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Old March 12th, 2005, 10:58 PM   #130
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There's a really good book summarising the trains of the London Underground called 'Underground Movement'. There's an idea put forward in it's closing chapter for new trains to use the existing small tube tunnels, but make increases in capacity and comfort. They were called 'space trains' and seemed to be based upon shifting the in-tunnel equipment around, to allow the trains to use the curviture of the tunnel on either side:



The extra standing space is achieved by pushing the seating into the curves of the tunnel, where the reduction in carriage height is less relevant. In addition to this the trains are articulated, like the Manchester Metrolink, BCN metro (and no doubt, lots of other metros!), adding further space and openness.



The only place I've ever seen or heared about what seems like a really good idea is however this book:

Moss, P: (2000), Underground Movement, Harrow Weald: Capital Transport Books

Last edited by ChrisCharlton; March 13th, 2005 at 02:51 PM. Reason: resize photos
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Old March 12th, 2005, 11:05 PM   #131
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Amazing thread.
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Old March 12th, 2005, 11:33 PM   #132
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Hi there,

I saw a model of these at the 1997 UITP exhibition, which in that year was in Toronto, Canada.

I thought that this would be a wonderful idea as it would significantly increase passenger capacity. The idea was that by using shorter carriages they could be wider - because there would be less "overhang" on curved track

They were also looking at installing platform doors at the stations and converting the line to overhead wire (!) instead of using the electric rails. With the Victoria Line this would be reasonably easy to accomplish because it is completely self contained (ie: it does not share its tracks with any other railway line - whether underground or mainline).

So, anyway what happend you ask? For a long time I wondered too.

It seems that because of privatisation the forward looking plans have been quietly dropped. The private company which iis now responsible (liable?) for the Victoria Line is planning to build a fleet of "conventional" tube trains, without articulation.

I think they want to play safe - developing and testing new trains always carries an element of risk in case there are severe teething (etc) problems. And of course nothing is worse than a failure a while after the fleet has been built which requires costly remedial work. (see below)

I would have been good if they had been able to build 2-3 trains first and test them for a year ot two. This has happened with other trains - and indeed every single train now on the Victoria Line was original tested before the Victoria Line opened on a small quiet branch of the Central Line. (Hainault - Woodford) This small branch was even converted (in the early 1960's) for "automatic" (computer-driven) trains, just to make sure that when the Victoria Line opened it would work - and be safe.

Nowadays this sort of thing would be much much more difficult. If not impossible.

I say this because nowadays each line's trains can only operate on its own line - many of the lines use their own signalling and control systems plus in some cases even the wheel profiles are slightly different.

Yes, at one time any train could travel on any line - but no thanks to the politicans this is not so any more.

-----------------------

A few years ago the entire Central Line was closed for many months because of problems with the trains and it was felt too dangerous to keep the trains in use. At the time the Government had to help out with the cost of repairs - i think the politicans wanted to make sure that if this happened again the private train builders would be forced to pay. So the train builders are "playing safe" and using proven succesful train designs.

Because of the closure many people found their journey times between 60-90 minutes longer - because they had to use buses, and the roads became very much more congested (as if they were empty in the first place).

Simon
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Old March 13th, 2005, 06:35 AM   #133
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Interesting designs, but i am a little confused as to how they work. It looks like the floor has been dropped, but how can that be done ans still line up with platforms? Also, how does overhead wire help? Isn't the space between the tunnel and the top of the train very small as it is? How would it fit (or is it something about the Victoria line in particular)? Thanks!


(I *heart* the Underground)
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Old March 13th, 2005, 07:13 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSPtoMKE
Interesting designs, but i am a little confused as to how they work. It looks like the floor has been dropped, but how can that be done ans still line up with platforms? Also, how does overhead wire help? Isn't the space between the tunnel and the top of the train very small as it is? How would it fit (or is it something about the Victoria line in particular)? Thanks!


(I *heart* the Underground)
I don't really get the overhead wire thing myself; the only reason I can think of is to make detrainment down the tunnel less hazardous (i.e. no live rails to step on). There certainly isn't enough room in the tunnel for a traditional catenary / pantograph set-up... Although when it was being mooted I read that they were considering an overhead "rail" which I thought must have been a typo until I saw the Barcelona Metro which has an overhead power rail.

As the car floors are significantly lower, I can only assume all the platforms would be dropped in height which is obviously a mammoth task. Another option that just occurred to me is to raise the track level through stations, which would involve the tunnel sections either end of each platform having to be slightly enlarged to accommodate the change in track depth.
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Old March 13th, 2005, 07:19 AM   #135
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Interesting stats on tube heights and platforms! Here, we have double decker commuter trains
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Old March 13th, 2005, 12:10 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
I don't really get the overhead wire thing myself; the only reason I can think of is to make detrainment down the tunnel less hazardous (i.e. no live rails to step on). There certainly isn't enough room in the tunnel for a traditional catenary / pantograph set-up... Although when it was being mooted I read that they were considering an overhead "rail" which I thought must have been a typo until I saw the Barcelona Metro which has an overhead power rail..
Tubeman,

I think they were looking at maintenance costs - the four rail system is much more expensive to maintain and by dispensing with the two power rails the costs would come down.

I dont know if it would have increased the chances of problems with return current earth leakage.

Simon
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Old March 13th, 2005, 01:21 PM   #137
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I'll post a few more pics in a bit which show the improved access for people with disabilities, with the space train. I hadn't considered the platform lowering. I thought that some refitting would be needed to move cables and other equipment from the side of the tunnel to the bottom (perhaps in a trough). It could be that such a move requires the space currently taken up by the four rails?

I'm sticking my finger in the air and taking a guess with this one, but are pantographs able to obtain the current with less friction? It seems to me that rubbing a shoe along a broad piece of rail would carry more friction than gently touching an overhead wire. Interested if anyone knows more on that.

I suppose pantographs can be designed such that they dont have a high profile. On the Manchester Metrolink the pantographs stretch almost the height of another tram in the city centre and then when on the 'railway' stretches of track, the overhead power is closer to the top of the vehicle and the pantograph is compressed to quite a degree. This is so that double decker buses can go under the tram lines in the city centre, but then the costs of catenery are reduced on the suburban sections.

Know what you mean about privatisation Simon. It's very frustrating - My Dad's worked for the railway for 25 years and seen how it's changed first hand.

Coming from Liverpool and being only 23 I'm totally astonished by projects such as Merseyrail and how they would *never* happen with today's politics. Just look at Metrolink Phase 3!

Chris
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Old March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM   #138
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As promised, colour pics of the insides (seems to be based on latest Jubilee line stock) and demonstration of disabled access:





Was thinking - in the initial diagram, the older train is labeled as being 1967 stock. Aren't they a bit higher off the platforms anyway? Am I right in thinking that the train floors have already got lower in the new Central/Northern/ and Jubilee vehicles?

Last edited by ChrisCharlton; March 13th, 2005 at 03:00 PM.
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Old March 13th, 2005, 04:56 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCharlton
I'll post a few more pics in a bit which show the improved access for people with disabilities, with the space train. I hadn't considered the platform lowering. I thought that some refitting would be needed to move cables and other equipment from the side of the tunnel to the bottom (perhaps in a trough). It could be that such a move requires the space currently taken up by the four rails?

I'm sticking my finger in the air and taking a guess with this one, but are pantographs able to obtain the current with less friction? It seems to me that rubbing a shoe along a broad piece of rail would carry more friction than gently touching an overhead wire. Interested if anyone knows more on that.

Know what you mean about privatisation Simon. It's very frustrating - My Dad's worked for the railway for 25 years and seen how it's changed first hand.

Coming from Liverpool and being only 23 I'm totally astonished by projects such as Merseyrail and how they would *never* happen with today's politics. Just look at Metrolink Phase 3!

Chris

Fascinating pics Chris. Thanks for posting them.

I dont know about floor heights having been changed on newer trains but the last time I used Northern line the train floors were waay about the platform heights - all I can say for sure is that new section of the Jublilee line was designed for wheelchair (etc) access so features level boarding.

I thought the sole reason for the pantographs on the Victoria Line was to reduce the costs of track maintenance.

What I would find to be *very* interesting would be how they would do this on the Piccadily and Bakerloo lines. Both of these use "tube" sized trains - in different places the Piccadily line shares tracks with District or Metropolitan lines (which use full sixe trains) and I think this would prove to be physically "exceptionally difficult" to arrange even of those other trains were converted to overhead wire operation too. As for the Bakerloo line, well, north of Queens Park it runs over mainline metals and whilst the class 313 trains which also use this route are already capable of taking power from overhead wires the voltage is 25,000 v ac - which would introduce even more complications... btw, recently some ex-Mersyrail 507's have been running on this route too - these of course are third rail 750v dc only.

Apparently if the present-day regulations had been in force back in the 1960's the Victoria Line would never have been built. As it is the bureaecrats forced its downgrading to a simple tube line - the original plans were for it to use full size trains, and in view of the severe over-crowding which it suffers at busy times the extra expense would have been money very well spent..

I am more than just a little frustrated by the anti-transport politics by our govt. Indeed govt's of many years - its not just Tony Blair's govt who have been villains in that respect. I think that after the next election there will be more severe pruning of our railway system - no matter who wins.

Because of my frustrations in I made (in 1995) a 75-minute video promoting better transports as a solution to traffic congestion and electric transports as a solution to air pollution. I am not a pro film-maker but i just bought a camcorder and started filming... I learnt the basics of film editing with super 8 cine holiday films from when I was a child and every year we went on family holidays & made 20-25 minute films.

More recently I have been busy on a website, which is nearly finished - the addy is www.citytransport.info

I have also been busy letter writing / campaigning with my local council, London's mayor, The Greater London Assembly, etc At present its better that I dont say too much about that - except that if I suddenly disappear then you should investigate "Transport For london" and our *loverly* (sic) Mayor. lol.

(or the govt. oil companies, etc because of what I say below...)


The only thing I can think of which would explain why our politicans are allowing so much to become so run down is that they are siphoning off funds for some "other" projects. It is often said that there are "other" underground transport systems - not just in Britain either. What may also have a bearing on this is that there is a large space body approaching this planet - coming from the direction of Antartica and as its devoid of natural light it cannot be seen - so maybe they have stopped caring about us (just do the minimum to keep us quiet and the stock market ticking over) whilst they prepare to save their hides. This space body has been known about for over 30 years - no its not going to hit mother earth - and indeed its partly the reason for climate change - not just on this planet either. Our burning of fossil fuels is also part of the problem but these politicans seem to not care about tomorrow or future generations, whilst despite having this knowledge I do.

I would also sugest that this is partly why so much money goes astray from the EU that its now 10 years since the auditors passed its finances.

Sorry, I've strayed off topic a little. But everything is connected - all we have to do is connect the dots to get the full picture.

Simon
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Last edited by spsmiler; March 13th, 2005 at 05:09 PM.
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Old March 13th, 2005, 05:59 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCharlton
Was thinking - in the initial diagram, the older train is labeled as being 1967 stock. Aren't they a bit higher off the platforms anyway? Am I right in thinking that the train floors have already got lower in the new Central/Northern/ and Jubilee vehicles?
The PTI (Platform-Train Interface) for the new Northern Line Trains appears worse than the old (i.e. the gap is bigger). It certainly appears that the car floors are not only higher than those of 1959 Stock, but also there is a wider gap between the platform edge and the doors.

Looking at the diagrams a little closer shows a feature of the floors of older stocks that I recall was quite marked in 1959 Stock; the floors sloped down towards the doors so that the middle of the cars / areas between the seating had higher floors (+10cm?) than by the doors. A similar arrangement could be implemented with any new stock to ensure a good PTI in the event of the car floors being lower (i.e. floors slope up towards the doors).

Last edited by Tubeman; March 14th, 2005 at 09:35 AM.
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