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Old November 10th, 2010, 03:03 PM   #1541
Teach
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The Victoria Line has been automatic since 1968!
He means automatic as in 'driverless'.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #1542
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Originally Posted by RedArkady View Post
Re the Battersea underground extension which seems to be becoming more likely,
why would they build the spur from Kennington on the Northern Line rather than the rather closer Vauxhall on the Victoria Line? And if it is going to be a Kennington spur, why not take the opportunity for a new Northern/Victoria interchange at Vauxhall?
The Victoria line needs all of its capacity in between Brixton and Victoria, siphoning off a few to Battersea would cause terrible overcrowding on the the remaining trains to Brixton.

The northern line at Kennington is a good choice, as it is two lines anyway. The Charing Cross branch, at the south end of Kennington, has tracks that join the city branch lines onwards to Morden, but also has its own reversing loop that comes back on itself. Meaning many trains from the Charing Cross branch turn around at Kennington. Extending some of these to Battersea would present no capacity impacts on any other services, and it would be easy enough to extend the tunnels, compared to doing the same on the Victoria line.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 08:48 PM   #1543
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While the Kennington branch is the best option for an extension to Battersea, that doesn't make it sensible to build an extension of an existing line to Battersea. There's better uses for the Charing Cross branch.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:46 PM   #1544
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Originally Posted by Teach View Post
He means automatic as in 'driverless'.
Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned on this but I'm not fond of driverless trains. They lose character, something that makes LU what it is.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 05:46 AM   #1545
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Originally Posted by Teach
Um, what are you talking about? First, line 14 is about as old as the Jubilee line extension, so not brand new anymore. Second, it operating automatically doesn't say anything about the size or capacity of the trains. And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically.

As for capacity, wikipedia mentions that the capacity of Paris' metro trains is between 560 and 720 per train on the main lines (1 - 14), less on the 'bis' lines. For London, some numbers are: 914 for the 1995 Tube Stock on the Northern line, and 1448 (!) for the new 2009 stock on the Victoria Line. So I don't quite get where you got the idea that the Tube trains don't have enough capacity: they actually have a considerably higher capacity than the ones in Paris. As for 'dimensions': yes, the Tube stock is quite low, but that doesn't really affect capacity. Width does. And if we compare, we see that 1995 Tube stock is 2.63m wide. Paris' MF67 is... 2.40m wide. So Paris metro cars are actually considerably smaller than London's tube cars in the place where it matters: width.
Thanks for this reasoned response to Axelferis' claptrap. I couldn't be bothered to do my own.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
While the Kennington branch is the best option for an extension to Battersea, that doesn't make it sensible to build an extension of an existing line to Battersea. There's better uses for the Charing Cross branch.
I agree. It'd be better in South East London. But that's what you get when you allow private financing to construct railway lines...
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Old November 11th, 2010, 03:50 PM   #1546
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
I agree. It'd be better in South East London. But that's what you get when you allow private financing to construct railway lines...
I would have thought the Bakerloo would be better going there when it is upgraded?

I do not think the "Northern" line per se will go to Battersea untill the two branches are separated into two distinct lines, which i think will also require the re-build of Camden Station and all the junctions round there.

Perhaps Tubeman can assist if he notices this. He is the resident expert!
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Old November 11th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #1547
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
While the Kennington branch is the best option for an extension to Battersea, that doesn't make it sensible to build an extension of an existing line to Battersea. There's better uses for the Charing Cross branch.
I agree with that actually. I don't now how many trains Battersea would need. Perhaps the CX branch could still go to SE London, with a Battersea branch as well? 8tph to Battersea and 20-24 tph SE London (assuming signalling upgrades and the route separation allow 32tph through the CX core).

Dobbo - I think both the Bakerloo and the Northern line should go to SE London on two different routes.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 04:49 PM   #1548
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Future expansions of the Tube should definitely focus in South London.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 05:11 PM   #1549
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Originally Posted by PortoNuts View Post
Future expansions of the Tube should definitely focus in South London.
Well, in the meantime there is Tramlink.
It's true however that the Tube needs to expand South.

Cheers.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #1550
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Dobbo - I think both the Bakerloo and the Northern line should go to SE London on two different routes.
I think it would be quite difficult to put both lines down to SE London. I feel that expansion of the Bakerloo and a (short) extension to the Victoria is more realistic, as the Bakerloo is underused to E&C and a greater frequency can be realised on the Vic by modifying a new terminus.

It is hard to achieve any expansion on the Northern Line right now because at peak times it is at capacity around the Kennington Area and it would require the separation of the lines in order to realise the increase in capacity required to safely extend the lines.

Last edited by Dobbo; November 11th, 2010 at 05:38 PM.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 07:11 PM   #1551
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Originally Posted by Davodavo View Post
Well, in the meantime there is Tramlink.
It's true however that the Tube needs to expand South.

Cheers.
An underground line would be a major plus in South London, which has been poorly served by the Tube for a long time, mainly due to the existance of several railway lines operating there.

Btw,

Quote:
Battersea power station offers £203m for Northern Line upgrade

The developer of Battersea Power Station is to pay more than £200million towards the cost of an extension to the Northern line.

The contribution is one of the conditions set by Wandsworth council for the long-awaited £4.4billion redevelopment of Europe's largest brick building.

No work will be allowed without a contract in place for the construction of the new Northern line spur to Kennington, with new tunnels and stops at the power station and Nine Elms.

The revelation comes before a crunch council meeting on Thursday that will decide whether plans to redevelop the grade II* listed building will get the go-ahead. Irish developer Real Estate Opportunities has offered to pay £203million towards the Tube developments, which could cover about a third of the cost, estimated at up to £663million.

Deputy Mayor Sir Simon Milton said: “There's still a lot of work to do but this important project could be set to take another step forward.”
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ine-upgrade.do
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Old November 11th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #1552
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Originally Posted by Dobbo View Post
It is hard to achieve any expansion on the Northern Line right now because at peak times it is at capacity around the Kennington Area and it would require the separation of the lines in order to realise the increase in capacity required to safely extend the lines.
There's tons of capacity on the Charing Cross branch (not the Bank branch though). It might even be emptier than the Bakerloo at Elephant.

Splitting the Northern line means that frequencies can improve on the whole line, especially north of Kennington (on both branches).

Northern line CX branch can also serve South London, as well as SE London (though not both at the same time!). SW London has a more logical and segregated suburban rail network than South and SE London - with their multiple termini and general everywhere to everywhere-else type service patterns that add up to sensible frequencies - and thus needs a tube line less desperately.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 01:17 AM   #1553
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Originally Posted by Teach View Post
Um, what are you talking . And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically.

.
Are you serious?? You dare compare line 14 to DLR ??

Why?

Line 14 is the best in Europe and only barcelona whole new automatic line can compete!

DLR has nothing to do with metor line 14






i love LU no problem and it has the best logo for a metro but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity with new materials cars!
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Last edited by Axelferis; November 12th, 2010 at 01:22 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 06:16 AM   #1554
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Why can't you compare Line 14 with the DLR? The DLR is considerably larger, carries around the same amount of passengers(approx. 60 million per year), handles multiple branches, and was built over a decade before Line 14. They serve different purposes, but from a technical standpoint they're more than comparable.

And as has been mentioned, the Victoria, Central, and soon the Jubilee lines are all automated, with the driver kept mostly to operate the doors and for psychological reasons(people feel safer when there's a human at the controls).
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Old November 12th, 2010, 06:39 AM   #1555
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Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i love LU no problem and it has the best logo for a metro but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity with new materials cars!
Have you ignored every previous post?

LU has more potential capacity. Right now the Paris Metro has higher patronage but this is because it has better signalling. LU is currently replacing the signalling on many lines and this will mean comparable frequencies to the Paris Metro. This, combined with the more capacious trains of LU, means that LU will have more capacity.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:59 AM   #1556
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Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
Paris has built a whole new line -> Meteor line 14 entirely automatic!

Why london can't do the same? not enough money? but london is the richest city in europe!

And the regular lines in paris can have the same dimensions for voitures than Line 14 ones!

I'm sorry even if i love London is just a shame! Tokyo, NY, Paris you have the right dimensions not london!
Automated lines are less advanced and less safe than manned trains in busy network nowadays.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 10:19 AM   #1557
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I used dlr and it has nothing to compare with line 14. Dlr is a light metro. Meteor is heavy. Dlr is more like a bigger val metro we have here in lille. I can't underdstand why is so hard for you to say that some materials abroad are better than your ones? And i repeat anyway i love LU!!! Just too small my girlfriend who are from paris say the same thing.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 12:06 PM   #1558
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
There's tons of capacity on the Charing Cross branch (not the Bank branch though). It might even be emptier than the Bakerloo at Elephant.

Splitting the Northern line means that frequencies can improve on the whole line, especially north of Kennington (on both branches).

Northern line CX branch can also serve South London, as well as SE London (though not both at the same time!). SW London has a more logical and segregated suburban rail network than South and SE London - with their multiple termini and general everywhere to everywhere-else type service patterns that add up to sensible frequencies - and thus needs a tube line less desperately.
I agree, but for an expansion/spur to take advantage of the extra capacity possibility on the Charing Cross Branch, the various junctions at Camden Town need to be sorted out so that CHX trains always go to Edgeware and Bank trains go to High Barnet/Mill Hill East.

In any event, the plan for the Northern Line is to do this and expand west towards Battersea and, i suspect in tim to Clapham Junction to join up with the Chelney when it is built.

This may allow expansion of the Victoria Line, and you would hope the Bakerloo to South East which would make a huge difference down there.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 01:08 PM   #1559
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Quote:
Why?
Why not?

Quote:
Line 14 is the best in Europe
Why?

Quote:
but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity
Seriously, are you blind? Let me repeat for you:

Paris: 560 - 720 passengers per train
London: Up to 1448 passengers per train

Paris: cars 2.40m wide
London: cars 2.63m wide

Quote:
why is so hard for you to say that some materials abroad are better than your ones?
Exactly what makes it 'better'? You've so far said about half a dozen times we need to 'accept' that it's better, but you have not once mentioned why it is better. You've made claims about the trains in London being too small compared to Paris, something the numbers clearly contradict. All you've pointed to so far to indicate line 14 is 'better' is because it doesn't have a driver, but how that makes it better I haven't seen you explain.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 02:11 PM   #1560
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Have you used one time in your life line 14? If no try it and you'll understand how the future is incarnated in this comfortable line

Wider cars in london? False because compare the material used aka MF01 is larger, wider spacier i'm going to bRing specs later.
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