cool vilnius pics

[pzlotnik]

Originally Posted by Mantaz

I think he meant that a part of that Polish population were Poles of Baltic origin, which is not just opinion of his.
As for that neglected part of Vilnius, it's just a bad district with bad population, I think most of cities have such areas.
One more thing, it's Vilnius and Rasos (both names are of Baltic origin)

Yes I agree, in Poznan one can find such areas too in the city center. For example Wolne Tory near the Railway station. You can make a war movie there.
In North East Poland there are towns and villages that have name of Baltic origin too. For example Suwalki and Sejny. We have also Lithuanian miniority there. I think we are connected through common history (Kingdom of Two Nations - Poland + Lithuania, many Kingdom of Two Nations kings were Lithuanian) and we should cooperate. You shouldn`t be aware of Polish people

[Giedrius_LT]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

Please God help me ( 50 meters from Ostra Brama) !!! Looks like Bangladesh - this is the city center.
http://images22.fotosik.pl/98/3936a5975e8e1ac2.jpg

you have told that like your country is much different Ofcourse this shloud be renovated one day, but i can find better places in Bangladesh then there are in Poland too and that obtains for Lithuania as well. To renovate whole oldtown is a huge job. And otherwise that picture with crap walls, poor street... it looks so nostalgic for me.

No exaggeration needed is what i mean

[whatever...]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

Please God help me ( 50 meters from Ostra Brama) !!! Looks like Bangladesh - this is the city center.

congratulations, you managed to find the only (and i'm not kidding) neglected street in all of Vilnius' oldtown and other old quarters... though there is also a nice side to that - forget the soviets, seems that bricks werent touched in this street from the times of Russian empire... some authentick feel you can experiance standing right next to 1500's defence wall

Originally Posted by plotznik

but I think It may take much longer, than in Poland, where peole are closer to Western civilisation

brave to say considering that over 90% of the people living in those rundown districts speak polish or russian, it's mostly some stuck up granny's refusing to seel their home (even though the sum of money they'r offered are very good looking), since "they want to die where they were born", or even in a "better" case - a good old polish drunkhead...

Originally Posted by plotznik

I don`t agree with You. My Grandmother was born in Wilno in 1926. Before second world war the Lithuanian part of population of the city was about 6-7 %, many Jews and most of population were Polish.

So what, my grandmother was also born in Vilnius in early 1920's, just as my grandfather or most of relatives of their both, like half of them (morons), mostly from granddad's side moved to Szczecin after WW2... and grandma told me very much the diferent story, not the Zheligowski's/Pilsudski's fairytale of lithuanians counting only 2% in whole of Vilnius' regions 1.5 mln citizens then... that's not the point anyway's... grandma's are not the most reliable source of information...

small lesson to you:

All that should matter is that "League of Nationes" (United Nations then) repudiated the Polish survey as "not trust worthy", since it was done by braking all the international laws in this case at that time - a survey done by a polish army at the time of Lith-Polish war for Vilnius region... (soviet survey just after WW2 puts lith's at 45% and poles at 30%.... should mean something, Russians had no reason why to corrupt nationality survey's... anyway, here's in a bit more detailed manner for you and every other pole to understand:


* 1918-1920, Independence war period, Poland claimed all of Lithuania as it's internal part in all of the diplomatic coridors and conventions that were remaking map of europe - Independent Lithuania was out of question...
* 1919 December 08 - "Conseil Supreme" (the one that organized war against communists) draw a Curzon line - Vilnius in Lithuanian side.
* 1920, july 15, Lith army enters Vilnius after defeating (side by side with poles) Bolshevik army;
* 1920 october 7th, after heavy fighting, peacetreaty is singned, where Poland acknowledges Vilnius as Lithuania's capital
* the very nex day - out of nowhere, Polish army atacks Lithuania and occupies Vilnius
* 1920, late October, Council of League of Nations offered to solve problem with census made by and controlled by League of Nations. Poland refused... may i ask why if they were so sure of Lithuanians beeing those 2 pathetic %?
* 1920 november 19 - Lithuanian army struck two crucial blows to Polish army just 30km north of Vilnius, near Giedraiciai and Sirvintos towns. League of Nations demanded no more bloodshed and peacefull solution to the problem, so Lith' army stopped - the special commision of League Of Nations, send Spanish and Japan delegations, they found that "Poland by occupying Vilnius has broken international treaties and should leave Vilnius to Lithuania"
* 1920 November 29, another peacetreaty singned - Polish army is to leave Vilnius and Lithuania for good.
* 1921 May 20, under regulations of The League of Nations, Hyman offered compromise, again puting a border as Curzon line - again, nothing...
* 1921 June 28 - another project from League Of Nations (and the final one) - ALL members of council, after deep investigation, voted that Vilnius should be recognized as part of Lithuania.
* 1922 February 22, still nothing... Lithuania invites Poland on the dispute to Hague tribunal, Poland refuses, knowing it would most certainly loose
* 1922 Lithuania terminates all of diplomatic relationships with Poland, both countries are almoust at a state of war up until WW2

Btw, Vilnius was neglected for 20 more years during "polish rule"

Sorry for oftopic everyone

[Mantas]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

Yes I agree, in Poznan one can find such areas too in the city center. For example Wolne Tory near the Railway station. You can make a war movie there.
In North East Poland there are towns and villages that have name of Baltic origin too. For example Suwalki and Sejny. We have also Lithuanian miniority there. I think we are connected through common history (Kingdom of Two Nations - Poland + Lithuania, many Kingdom of Two Nations kings were Lithuanian) and we should cooperate. You shouldn`t be aware of Polish people

Well, that Baltic part of Poland used to belong to Lithuanian Dainava region, that's why it has Baltic names etc. I agree about the cooperation part, except for not being "aware of Polish people", I think you meant "afraid", didn't you?

[pzlotnik]

Originally Posted by whatever...

congratulations, you managed to find the only (and i'm not kidding) neglected street in all of Vilnius' oldtown and other old quarters... though there is also a nice side to that - forget the soviets, seems that bricks werent touched in this street from the times of Russian empire... some authentick feel you can experiance standing right next to 1500's defence wall



brave to say considering that over 90% of the people living in those rundown districts speak polish or russian, it's mostly some stuck up granny's refusing to seel their home (even though the sum of money they'r offered are very good looking), since "they want to die where they were born", or even in a "better" case - a good old polish drunkhead...



So what, my grandmother was also born in Vilnius in early 1920's, just as my grandfather or most of relatives of their both, like half of them (morons), mostly from granddad's side moved to Szczecin after WW2... and grandma told me very much the diferent story, not the Zheligowski's/Pilsudski's fairytale of lithuanians counting only 2% in whole of Vilnius' regions 1.5 mln citizens then... that's not the point anyway's... grandma's are not the most reliable source of information...

small lesson to you:

All that should matter is that "League of Nationes" (United Nations then) repudiated the Polish survey as "not trust worthy", since it was done by braking all the international laws in this case at that time - a survey done by a polish army at the time of Lith-Polish war for Vilnius region... (soviet survey just after WW2 puts lith's at 45% and poles at 30%.... should mean something, Russians had no reason why to corrupt nationality survey's... anyway, here's in a bit more detailed manner for you and every other pole to understand:


* 1918-1920, Independence war period, Poland claimed all of Lithuania as it's internal part in all of the diplomatic coridors and conventions that were remaking map of europe - Independent Lithuania was out of question...
* 1919 December 08 - "Conseil Supreme" (the one that organized war against communists) draw a Curzon line - Vilnius in Lithuanian side.
* 1920, july 15, Lith army enters Vilnius after defeating (side by side with poles) Bolshevik army;
* 1920 october 7th, after heavy fighting, peacetreaty is singned, where Poland acknowledges Vilnius as Lithuania's capital
* the very nex day - out of nowhere, Polish army atacks Lithuania and occupies Vilnius
* 1920, late October, Council of League of Nations offered to solve problem with census made by and controlled by League of Nations. Poland refused... may i ask why if they were so sure of Lithuanians beeing those 2 pathetic %?
* 1920 november 19 - Lithuanian army struck two crucial blows to Polish army just 30km north of Vilnius, near Giedraiciai and Sirvintos towns. League of Nations demanded no more bloodshed and peacefull solution to the problem, so Lith' army stopped - the special commision of League Of Nations, send Spanish and Japan delegations, they found that "Poland by occupying Vilnius has broken international treaties and should leave Vilnius to Lithuania"
* 1920 November 29, another peacetreaty singned - Polish army is to leave Vilnius and Lithuania for good.
* 1921 May 20, under regulations of The League of Nations, Hyman offered compromise, again puting a border as Curzon line - again, nothing...
* 1921 June 28 - another project from League Of Nations (and the final one) - ALL members of council, after deep investigation, voted that Vilnius should be recognized as part of Lithuania.
* 1922 February 22, still nothing... Lithuania invites Poland on the dispute to Hague tribunal, Poland refuses, knowing it would most certainly loose
* 1922 Lithuania terminates all of diplomatic relationships with Poland, both countries are almoust at a state of war up until WW2

Btw, Vilnius was neglected for 20 more years during "polish rule"

Sorry for oftopic everyone

Now my version of history taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius

During World War I Vilnius — as with the rest of Lithuania — was occupied by Germany from 1915 until 1918. The Act of the Restoration of Independence of Lithuania was proclaimed in the city on February 16, 1918. After the withdrawal of German forces, Lithuanian forces were made to retreat by the advancing Russian occupation forces. Vilnius changed hands many times: for a while it was controlled by Polish self-defence units, who didn't want the city to be occupied by Russian-Bolshevik forces. Then the Polish Army regained control, then Soviet forces again. Shortly after its defeat in the Battle of Warsaw (1920), the retreating Red Army ceded the city back to Lithuania by signing a peace treaty on July 12, 1920. Poland also recognized Vilnius and the Vilnius region as a part of Lithuania with the Treaty of Suwalki signed on October 7, 1920 ([1]). However, on October 9 of the same year, the Polish Army under General Lucjan Żeligowski broke the treaty and seized Vilnius after a staged coup. The city and its surroundings were proclaimed a separate state of Central Lithuania (Vidurio Lietuvos Respublika). On February 20, 1922, the whole area was made a part of Poland, with Vilnius as the capital of the Wilno Voivodship (Wilno being the name of Vilnius in Polish). Poles and Jews made up a majority of the population of the city, with a small Lithuanian minority of only 0.8%.

So Lithuanians wanted Wilno back, but there where no Lits at all. Poland should claim for Kowno, where in 1939 was 10 % Polish miniority (this is Your way of thinking - I want to show it)

In the meantime, for yet another time in its history, the city enjoyed a period of fast development. Vilnius University was reopened under the name Stefan Batory University and the city's infrastructure was improved significantly. By 1931, the city had 195,000 inhabitants, making it the fifth largest city in Poland. Some Lithuanians, however, dispute this picture of economic growth and point out that the standard of living in Vilnius at this time was considerably lower compared to that in other parts of contemporary Lithuania.

[Dompcz]

Wikipedia page edited by Poles. What a great source of information.

"In the meantime, for yet another time in its history, the city enjoyed a period of fast development"

Are you kidding? Then why Kaunas has much bigger number of buildings from interwar period?

[Giedrius_LT]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

with a small Lithuanian minority of only 0.8%.

Can you show me where have you taken these numbers from? 0.8% looks "bit" too low for me.

I still can't get the point of your debate, but let's check some history.

Vilnius for the 1st time was mentioned in 1323 in duke Gediminas letter. In which he asked germans and jews to come live in Vilnius. So Vilnius is Lithuanian city, it was founded in Lithuania by Lithuanians. But we can say that it was our wish to denationalize it.

Vilnius was the centre of culture for jews in Nothen Europe. It was called Northen Jerusalem. So for it's influence for jews it got more and more their population here (that's a logical conclusion).

1920 Vilnius was occupyed by Poland.

So because of close Lithuanian-Polish history, occupation by Poland, big influence for jews in the beginning of XX century population of Vilnius was mainly made of jews and polish people. But that's normal if you will look at the history which i have gave. But Vilnius is still Lithuanian city, no matter is half of China will come here You know what i mean.

In 2001 population of Vilnius was made of: Lithuanians - 57,8 %, polish - 18,7 %, russians - 14 %, belarussians - 4 %, jews - 0,5 %, other – 5 %.
I'm too lazy to search for newer information, but I don't think that these numbers have changed a lot in 6 years.



A lil bit for Kaunas.
Population: Lithuanians - 93%, russians - 4%, other - 3%.
Founded in 1030.
In crusader cronics for the 1st time mentioned in 1361 as the fortress of Grand Principality of Lithuania.

Lays on the confluence of two bigest rivers of Lithuania - Nemunas and Neris in the centre part of Lithuania.
Was the capital of Lithuania throught 1920-1944 while Vilnius was playing it's occupation games

[raz]

Yes, and thanks to your (I mean both Poles and Lithuanians) wonderful dispute, Baltic countries and Poland couldn't integrate closer during the inter-war period. If the 4 countries + Finland had had united military and foreign policy, Soviets and Nazis wouldn't have had such an easy time overrunning the region.

And now you're both in EU, much less developed than you could have been, suffered 50 years of misery, and to add insult to injury soon there won't be any guarded borders between your countries due to Shengen agreement, rendering the whole dispute almost redundant. Bravo!

P.S. If I'd have to take sides, it would be Lithuania. Poland is a big country, and Wilno region is not that strategically important to Poland. Lithuania is a small country already and needs any land it can get (especially if it's historically Lithuanian).

As a token of good neighbouring relations the Poles could have let the Lits have the region. And if both sides were playing it wisely, you'd be able to agree on some degree of autonomy for Polish people there.

P.P.S So next time you argue about this crap, remember that your countries are partially responsible for Soviet reign of terror.

[Marek.kvackaj]

+++

[Marek.kvackaj]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

I don`t agree with You. My Grandmother was born in Wilno in 1926. Before second world war the Lithuanian part of population of the city was about 6-7 %, many Jews and most of population were Polish.

The same we can say about Danzig, where before II WW Polish population didn`t exceed 10 %.

I visited Lithuania last summer and I saw Wilno as very dynamic city in the center, but vilages and small towns looked rahter poor. There are much bigger contrasts in Vilnius, than for example in polish Poznan. Old city is much better renovated, but when I passed "Ostra Brama" and went to Rossa Cementary (where there are graves of my ancestors) I saw different world. People looked like taken from old soviet movie, buses old, building in very bad state. I admire Your successful effort in getting rid "Soviet look", but I think It may take much longer, than in Poland, where peole are closer to Western civilisation.

Poland is geographicaly closer to West. Europe and Western civilisation but living standards are higher in Lithuania...enought said
and all what you can do for now is get rid of your corupt and incopetent goverment

[Mantas]

Originally Posted by Giedrius_LT

In 2001 population of vilnius was made of: Lithuanians - 57,8 %, polish - 18,7 %, russians - 14 %, belarussians - 4 %, jewels - 0,5 %, other – 5 %.
I'm too lazy to search for newer information, but I don't think that these numbers have changed a lot in 6 years.

What a funny mistake

[pzlotnik]

Wilno will always stay Lithuanian, nobody in Poland wants it. That`s the history. We got Stettin and Breslau, Lithuania got Wilno, Ukraine got Lwów. Life must go on. We must concentrate in cooperating, build Via and Rail Baltica (You are mauch further than Poland in constructing Via BaLTICA). But in Poland construction goes on quickly. In 2009 there will be completed 70 km route from Warsaw to Wyszków, maybe Augustów bypass contruction will start (Green Orgs in Poland and Europe protest against building it through Rospuda river). The rail route from Warsaw through Białystok and Suwałki will be reconstructed to 160 km/h until 2013. Polish oil company ORLEN just bought Możejki rafinery for 3 000 000 000 $, Lithuanian energy lines will be connected with Eurpoean System through Polish energy system. You must rely on us, because the only way to Europe from Baltic states is through Poland. Nobody will choose Belarus to pass through. So we must be friends

[pzlotnik]

Originally Posted by Dompcz

Wikipedia page edited by Poles. What a great source of information.

"In the meantime, for yet another time in its history, the city enjoyed a period of fast development"

Are you kidding? Then why Kaunas has much bigger number of buildings from interwar period?

You must pay attention when you use Wiki - Wiki opened his R&D center in Poznań, and Google too - it has R&D center in Kraków and just announced new opening of his second center in Wroclaw where they want to employ over 250 IT specialists

[Dompcz]

@pzlotnik: Yes we have many common projects right now and also I think that currently there are very good relations between Poland, Lithuania and other Baltic states. Our politics in EU and also what concerns Russia/Belarus/Ukraine... are also identical.

Anyway, I think we went offtopic too far.

[pzlotnik]

Originally Posted by Dompcz

@pzlotnik: Yes we have many common projects right now and also I think that currently there are very good relations between Poland, Lithuania and other Baltic states. Our politics in EU and also what concerns Russia/Belarus/Ukraine... are also identical.

Anyway, I think we went offtopic too far.

Of course, next year I must visit Kaunas and your seaside courort Palanga (I heard it`s worth seeing) - and of course drink a lot of Lithuanian beer , which is very, very good (polish beer is too heavy for me)

[Giedrius_LT]

Originally Posted by Mantaz

What a funny mistake

My bad I was on a hurry and my english misleaded me. It's fixed now

[Dompcz]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

Of course, next year I must visit Kaunas and your seaside courort Palanga (I heard it`s worth seeing) - and of course drink a lot of Lithuanian beer , which is very, very good (polish beer is too heavy for me)

Palanga is ok but Nida is much better.

[pzlotnik]

Originally Posted by Dompcz

Palanga is ok but Nida is much better.

Where is Nida, isn`t it on Kuronian Pennisula ???

[Mantas]

Originally Posted by pzlotnik

Where is Nida, isn`t it on Kuronian Pennisula ???

Yep

[Dompcz]

Yes, it is: