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Old September 21st, 2013, 03:13 PM   #61
photolitherland
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Even more so than Robert Moses?
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Old September 21st, 2013, 06:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pod° View Post
This is CRAZY
Completely crazy
In fact, before cancelling the entire project, a shorter street was proposed. It would have gone from Punta Sabbioni to Certosa island (the small island just before Venice, on the east).

This project would have left Venice untouched, whereas Certosa would have probably been transformed into a car/bus terminal like existing Piazzale Roma. Still the project would have had a huge impact on the city, both environmentally and socially.

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I hope Venice can be saved from from the rising seas in the future.
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Originally Posted by redbaron_012 View Post
I hope not to offend or be ignorant. The pics of the water at high tide flowing into buildings. Is that because Venice is sinking or because water is rising from Global Warming ? In Australia we live a constant life afraid of Global Warming and doom...This city has been here for a very long time so should know better than any of us here...best wishes x
Hi! Thank you for your question The cause is both sinking and global warming, and you can find extensive information on post #34 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...6&postcount=34 .

I'm very confident that a solution will be found, either by permanent closure of the lagoon and/or elevation of the city. This is what's under construction at the moment for the problem of high tide, but note that it's uneffective against permanent water level rise of more than +30 cm, according to some researchers. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...2&postcount=37

The city requires constant restoration works on the foundations, and this has already been an occasion to raise the most important pedestrian streets by 20-30 cm in order to keep them dry during high tide.

I'm very confident in human power and ability to adapt the environment, as the lagoon has already been heavily modified since ancient times. Some of these changes were terrible, such as the construction of the industrial area, but there's a far larger scientific knowledge of the problems nowadays. I think that, by the time the water level rises to a worrying level, we'll have already thought of and built a protection such as the ones in The Netherlands

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O, thank God that didn't happen!
I might agree that Le Corbusier was a good architect meaning a person who designs single buildings. But he was a nightmare of a city planner. His nihilistic or merely barbaric attitude to the cultural heritage, his arrogance and inability to realize how city works and how people in the city act along with his megalomaniac ambitions and great influence his ideas had (and still have) on his colleagues all over the world made him arguably the most harmful and destructive figure in the history of urban development.
I see Le Corbusier more as a philospoher than an architect. He pioneered Modern Architecture, with its scientific study for better living conditions rather than aesthetical features of the buildings. He brought some disruptive ideas and contributions to Architecture, which deeply influenced nearly every architect who studied after him.

But as he was a pioneer, his ideas had never been tested: he couldn't factually determine what was their actual effect on the life of people.

I think Le Corbusier's place in Architecture is like Freud's place in Psychology: he invented and put the basis for modern Psychology, but most of his theories are obsolete.

Moreover, the idea of "High-rises in the park" is the exact opposite of the Italian Historical city, where buildings are contiguous and dense even if they're usually no more than 5-6 storeys tall. This makes cars less important, as houses and services are close to each other and can be reached by walking or bicycle in a pleasant street with few cars and usually many shops. Nonetheless bad suburban planning has made Italy the country with the highest per-capita car ownership in Europe (after some small countries and Iceland).

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Even more so than Robert Moses?
I admit that I didn't know him. I took a quick look on Wikipedia, and I get that his major fault was to promote private traffic rather than public transport, and having a too wide urbanistic vision with major buildings destruction and relocation of people to build large highways. Is that correct?
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:28 PM   #63
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Robert Moses is the reason most of the cities here in America were destroyed and cut up by massive highway systems, which obliterated many neighborhoods. He's basically the culprit of all the horrible urban planning strategies the US embraced from the 40s to the 70s.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 08:00 AM   #64
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great to see how much is being done to save this amazing city
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 05:41 PM   #65
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Even more so than Robert Moses?
He was a shocker that's true. Thanks to Jane Jacobs and others who tried to hold him back at least a little otherwise he would have even run a highway through Greenwich Village.

Le Corbusier the 'grand poobah' has much to answer to also

http://youtu.be/8lyZzou4mDM?t=21m
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 11:08 PM   #66
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Even more so than Robert Moses?
But if there were no Le Corbusier there would have been no Robert Moses. Moses's projects have much in common with Corbusier's ideas. The main difference is that Le Corbusier was more a theoretician while Moses was a practician.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 11:24 PM   #67
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I see Le Corbusier more as a philospoher than an architect. He pioneered Modern Architecture, with its scientific study for better living conditions rather than aesthetical features of the buildings.
The saddest thing is that his idea of good living conditions was pretty weird as well. So in the end there were neither aesthetical value nor real comfort for living.

Quote:
I think Le Corbusier's place in Architecture is like Freud's place in Psychology: he invented and put the basis for modern Psychology, but most of his theories are obsolete.
I'm not sure that analogy is correct. Even if some of Freud's ideas were later considered wrong they at least didn't bring as much harm as ones of Le Corbusier.
But, in defence of Corbusier, i'd say that he at least was able to change and reconsider some of his points of view eventually. The problem is that many of his followers were not so flexible and kept inplementing the ideas of early Le Corbusier even when the maitre himself thought the other way.

(and sorry for this huge offtopic)
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 01:49 AM   #68
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The saddest thing is that his idea of good living conditions was pretty weird as well. So in the end there were neither aesthetical value nor real comfort for living.
You have to consider the time when those ideas were invented.

I don't know the conditions in the US, but in Italy many cities were bombed after World War 2. But even the cities which weren't bombed had very poor living conditions. A lot of people lived in small and overcrowded houses, with bad hygienical issues and a lot of humidity.

This was the case of Venice, where, around the year 1950:
- There were 174,808 inhabitants in Venice centre (three times as many as today)
- A lot of people lived at the ground floor, with constant humidity and little sunlight
- The city was smaller, as a lot of manufacturing areas have been recently converted to residential and services, and some areas have been reclaimed and built.
- Many houses didn't even have a private bathroom! Needless to say, most houses lacked heating, or only had a fireplace at the center of the house.

This posed the conditions, all over Italy, to build some modern settlements demolishing historical ruined buildings. At the time, these insanely cheap buildings effectively meant a huge improvement in living conditions, as they were sane, large, full of modern electrical equipment, heating and even an elevator!

My grandparents and my dad moved to a modern house built in 1955 inside Venice, replacing a small laboratory. The house is about 120-130 square meters, and has an elevator (which is very rare in Venice). Before, they used to live with some other relatives in a 60-70 square meters house!

Luckily their house was built with a great respect for the scenery, as Venice was already considered a city which had to be preserved. But a lot of historical buildings in other cities were razed in the 50s and 60s just because they weren't considered historical.

For example: these are the Sassi di Matera, a neighborhood in Matera made of houses partly carved into stone. In 1948 they were deemed "national shame" by Palmiro Togliatti, the head of the Communist Party at the time. Nowadays they're UNESCO heritage site

image hosted on flickr

Sassi di Matera di Branzino Curiosso, su Flickr

Here you can see all the bad constructions which ruined the historical city of Mestre, the mainland part of Venice, in the 50s, 60s and probably the 70s too. Most of them were built destroying historical smaller houses, and they often don't even respect the existing street plan, leaving holes in the urban tissue and blind façades on neighbor buildings.

image hosted on flickr

Mestre di Teone!, su Flickr

I've managed to go off-topic even to your off-topic, because I didn't say anything about Le Corbusier!

Quote:
I'm not sure that analogy is correct. Even if some of Freud's ideas were later considered wrong they at least didn't bring as much harm as ones of Le Corbusier.
But, in defence of Corbusier, i'd say that he at least was able to change and reconsider some of his points of view eventually. The problem is that many of his followers were not so flexible and kept inplementing the ideas of early Le Corbusier even when the maitre himself thought the other way.

(and sorry for this huge offtopic)
Don't worry for the off-topic, it's interesting!
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 12:48 PM   #69
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That is rather similar to what happened in Russia where I live. In Khrushchev's time lots of cheap paneled five-storied apartment buildings (so-called khrushchyovkas) were constructed all over the USSR. People now mostly refer to them with arrogance because their living conditions are far behind modern living standards (there is even an ironic word khrushchyoba for them - a pun mixing Khrushchev's name and a Russian word for slum). But that's not fair of course. Before Khrushchev's housing program a great majority of Soviet people lived in kommunalkas (communal apartments), former (pre-revolutionary) private apartments shared by many families. So for an average Soviet family having a whole apartment of its own (no matter how small and backward in terms of comfort - modern terms mostly) was like a paradise. Due to Khrushchev a huge housing problem in the Soviet Union was though not completely solved but facilitated to a great degree.
The difference is that khrushchyovkas were built as usual on more or less empty territories and their construction didn't imply destruction of old development. Though Russia (as well as other former Sobiet republics) has lost lots of priceless historic buildings and ensembles in Soviet time that had nothing to do with housing problem solution but was mostly a result of megalomaniac development projects in city centres or ideological struggle against the old regime pepresented by old buildings (especially churches of course).
This said, turning back to Le Corbusier: his idea of a dreamhouse was rather different from our average commieblock and, I daresay, different to the worse. His machines for living were closer to huge dormitories than to apartment blocks and they didn't have neighborhoods such as courtyards which khrushchyovkas in fact had.

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Old September 23rd, 2013, 02:24 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_P;107325313Though Russia (as well as other former Sobiet republics) has lost lots of priceless historic buildings and ensembles in Soviet time that had nothing to do with housing problem solution but was mostly a result of megalomaniac development projects in city centres or ideological struggle against the [I
old regime[/I] pepresented by old buildings (especially churches of course).
The offtopic on "Old urbanism vs Modernism" should be split into a separate thread because it deserves it.

In the Western Europe situation and motivation on destroying the old neghbourhood and building new appartment blocks was quite similar. The hystorical houses were considered to have bad living standards (although they could have been renovated and modernised), historical neghbourhoods "overcrowded" and in addition to it the modern Le Corbusieristic architecture was seen as "progressive and egalitarian".

It is not surprised that most of the destruction happened in 60s when the western socialism gained power. They were kind of fighting against the "Old regime" of pre-war times to...
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Old September 30th, 2013, 05:15 AM   #71
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Columns in St Mark's square

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Originally Posted by skymantle View Post
Great updates Jasper
What about the two great columns standing at the entrance of Piazza San Marco? I think i read once that they commemorate the one-time colonies of Crete and Cyprus, considered the jewels in the crown of Venice's foriegn posessions. Is this true and can you please tell us more about these columns? Thanks.
Hi!
Sorry for my absence from this thread Two days ago I had a big University exam, which I passed with 26/30 and now I have some free time

The two columns are made of red and grey Egyptian granite, and they feature two statues on top.

The left one carries Greek warrior San Tòdaro (San Teodoro/St Theodore) first protector saint of Venice, stepping over a killed dragon (resembling a crocodile ). The statue is a copy, whereas the original lies in the middle of the court inside Palazzo Ducale. The Greek marble head is probably a portrait of a Greek king from the 2nd century B.C., whereas the torso is Roman, of the same age.
The rest of the statue was probably sculpted by a Venetian at the beginning of the 14th century.

The right column carries a bronze statue of a winged lion (the symbol of Venice) with uncertain origin. It's actually a Chimera with attached wings, and it may be Etruscan, Persian (4th century B.C.), Assyrian (5th century B.C.) or even of Chinese origins.
(Source: Venice, by Italian Touring Club)

The history of these columns is very interesting and uncertain. Three ships, carrying 3 columns were brought to Venice from Constantinoples or the Holy land around the year 1125, and the columns were unloaded in St Mark's square.

Unfortunately one of the three columns was dropped in the water while unloading, and was never found. The bottom of the lagoon was searched twice, in 1170 and 1873, with no results.
The column may have never existed, or it may have sank in the sand at the bottom of the lagoon. It would be nice to search it again, with modern tools!

But another problem was to be solved: how were the columns going to be erected? They lay horizontally for about 50 years until 1172, when Nicolò Barattiero found the way to erect them. He was an engineer from the free Commune of Bergamo, which later became Venetian in 1428.
He secured the top of the columns with a large rope, and secured the other end of the rope to the future base of the column. As he poured water on the ropes, these became a little thicker and shorter, thus raising the top of the column from the ground. A piece of wood was laid under the raised column, and the rope was replaced with a shorter, dry rope, to be wetted.
This operation, repeated a lot of times, resulted in the columns being completely erected!

Out of gratitude, the area between the columns was the only one in the city where gambling was allowed, and Barattiero had the exclusive on the profits from gambling.

Later the area became the place where the criminals were publicly executed.

image hosted on flickr

VENISE - CARNAVAL - Colonne San Marco - 26-02-12 (731) di Codognanais - François CANTO, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Winged Lion of St. Mark, Venice, Italy di Petr Svarc, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Colonne di San Marco e San Teodoro di adrian.haisan, su Flickr

Two Venetian common sayings originate from this area. I'll use the following code: Venetian --> Italian --> English and then the explanation

1) El ga ciapà el do de cope --> Ha pescato il due di coppe --> He drew the two of cups

This saying is still used to indicate when someone escapes and/or makes himself untraceable.
Cups is one of the suits in Northern Italian playing cards (the other suits are coins, clubs and swords), and the two of cups is the most unlucky card, meaning that you could lose all your money while playing under the pillars.
Therefore, when someone drew the two of cups, he preferred to escape and "disappear", in order to keep the money

Here you can see the cards from Treviso. The two of cups is at the bottom-right of the picture. http://flic.kr/p/4jfKTF

2) Te fasso véder mi che ora che xe! --> Ti faccio vedere io che ore sono! --> I'll make you see what time it is!!

Since executions were performed between the two pillars, the convict faced the Clock Tower and therefore "could see the time". So this expression is still used to threaten someone!



I couldn't find reference to Crete and Cyprus commemoration in the columns' history, but there may be some other monuments to celebrate them in Venice.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 05:46 AM   #72
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Columns with St Mark's lion in other cities

Nearly every city in the former Venetian Republic has a pillar with St Mark's winged lion on top, in the city centre. The list of cities include:

- Padova
image hosted on flickr

Palazzo del Capitanio e Leone di Pivari.com, su Flickr
- Verona (demolished by the Jacobins and reconstructed in 1886)



- Brescia (demolished in the 19th century, reconstruction proposed)

[No picture]

- Rovigo

image hosted on flickr

Rovigo - Piazza Vittorio Emanuele II di Luigi Strano, su Flickr

- Bassano del Grappa

image hosted on flickr

Monumento raf.leone di Venezia di Max Nicolodi, su Flickr

- Chioggia (jokingly called "the cat" as it's smaller than the Venetian one) Larger picture here: http://flic.kr/p/5XBPA4

image hosted on flickr

Piazzetta_Vigo di cristina.manfrin, su Flickr

- the small Lombard town of Taleggio (The pillar was built in 1609, but the bronze statue was given from Venice city to Taleggio in 1972 as a present).



- Udine

image hosted on flickr

Udine di fulvio timossi, su Flickr

- Vicenza features two pillars, very similar to Venice. The column with St Mark's Lion dates back to 1464, whereas the other one (Christ the Redeemer) is from 1640.

image hosted on flickr

The North end of the Piazza dei Signori di jonfholl, su Flickr

- Cittadella (although the pillar is modern, built in 1923)

image hosted on flickr

Leone di San Marco di Matteo Pillon, su Flickr

- Milan: the lion was left in Milan by Venetians during a failed attempt to conquer the city. Milan has never been domained by Venice.

image hosted on flickr

San Babila, Milan di rjhuttondfw, su Flickr

- Feltre

image hosted on flickr

il castello di Feltre di fhuell, su Flickr
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:39 AM   #73
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Are the capitals from 12th century?
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 06:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Jasper90 View Post
Nearly every city in the former Venetian Republic has a pillar with St Mark's winged lion on top, in the city centre. The list of cities include:

- Padova
image hosted on flickr

Palazzo del Capitanio e Leone di Pivari.com
a padova c'era la statua della gatta , che doveva rappresentare un leone ma vista la figura esile fu appunto soprannominata la gatta.... pochi giorni fa è stata investita e distrutta da un furgone, ora è in restauro
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 09:45 PM   #75
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In Padua you can still get the statue of the Gatta Melata (Appled Kitty) - resembling a ridden horse though.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 01:55 AM   #76
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In Padua you can still get the statue of the Gatta Melata (Appled Kitty) - resembling a ridden horse though.
Appled kitty?!

Ma lol!

Da oscar delle frasi celebri
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 07:58 PM   #77
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Wonderful thread!

How often are the canals cleaned?
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 08:31 PM   #78
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Wonderful thread!

How often are the canals cleaned?
Until 1970 , each canal was cleaned every 10 years - by damming it and dry-excavating. then it was simply forgotten until around 2000 where the municipality started again to make this essential work .

Venice has no sewage system, so everything ends up into the canals.

This, combined with the reduction of "live" surface of venetian lagoon (area of lagoon no more subject to tide water expansion, due for being landfilled for industry or other) was one on the reasons for the increase of "acqua alta" , much more than subsidence that is very limited.
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Old October 5th, 2013, 12:50 AM   #79
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a padova c'era la statua della gatta , che doveva rappresentare un leone ma vista la figura esile fu appunto soprannominata la gatta.... pochi giorni fa è stata investita e distrutta da un furgone, ora è in restauro
Unfortunately this is true... He's talking about this medieval lion, which was demolished and restored on several occasions (1797, by Napoleon, and 1914 for vandalism). It was definitely hit and destroyed a few weeks ago by a truck which was delivering goods to shops in the city.
I hear they're trying to restore it, but I think it'll be very difficult.

image hosted on flickr

PADOVA - &quot;La Gatta&quot; di Sant'Andrea. (Shot__3065 F) di Ziozampi, su Flickr





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Originally Posted by vittorio tauber View Post
In Padua you can still get the statue of the Gatta Melata (Appled Kitty) - resembling a ridden horse though.
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Appled kitty?!

Ma lol!

Da oscar delle frasi celebri
Come on guys!!!

Now I even have to explain!!!

They're referring to this statue of Erasmo da Narni, also called Gattamelata (which literally translates as "appled female cat" )

But since I don't know Padova very well, I can let vittorio tauber say something about this statue

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Old October 5th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #80
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Are the capitals from 12th century?
Yes, they were added when the pillars arrived in Venice from Constantinoples or Palestine.
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