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Old October 29th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #121
Jasper90
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Bridges: Rialto

I'll begin with the most famous bridge in the entire city: Rialto.

The bridge lies close to the oldest area of the city, Rialto, which is traditionally considered to be founded on the 25 March 421 when the nearby church of San Giacometo was sacred. (see here)

The first pontoon bridge was built in 1181 by Nicol˛ Barattiero (the engineer who raised the pillars in St Mark's Square, see here), but it was replaced in 1255 with a wooden bridge. The central part of the bridge was movable, in order to allow large boats to pass underneath.

This bridge collapsed in 1310 due to a fire, and twice in 1444 and 1524 due to it being overcrowded with people watching a boat parade in the Grand Canal.

Two rows of shops had been built on top of the bridge at the beginning of the 15th century, until eventually in 1551 a competition was held, in order to build a new stone bridge.

Many architects joined the competition with classical-style bridges, but the winner was Antonio Da Ponte, who completed the present bridge in 1591.
The design is similar to the previous bridge, as it has two rows of shops on top of it.

This is the previous wooden bridge, in a painting from Vittore Carpaccio, dated 1496.



This is Andrea Palladio's neoclassical proposed bridge, which didn't win the competition. See here for more information on Andrea Palladio




This is Rialto bridge, seen from North:

image hosted on flickr

Rialto and Canale Grande Venezia di elevationus, su Flickr

And this is the most famous sight of the bridge, as seen from South.
The graffiti have been removed recently, and all the wooden arcades have been painted with a uniform bottle-green colour.

image hosted on flickr

Rialto bridge in Venice, Italy di llamnudds, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Rialto Bridge di MPOBrien, su Flickr

And this is a picture showing the area between the shops. It was taken early in the morning, so there is nobody and the shops are still closed

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Old October 30th, 2013, 12:30 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper90 View Post

The street name is written in Venetian language
Here's the reason to ask what I wanted to: about Venetian language.
How far is it different from the official Italian (tuscan?) and how widely is it used in Venice (beside street signs) or Veneto as a whole? Is it commonly used in shop names, billboards, advertising or in school education? Are there many books in Venetian sold? By the way, what the language of great Venetian poets and playwrights (like Goldoni, Gozzi etc.) was like? It's interesting how this bilingual thing works (which is not the specific Italian problem of course, but it might be solved differently).
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Old October 30th, 2013, 07:07 PM   #123
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just found this awesome thread, keep going you're really doing an amazing and helpful job!

I have a question, when I went as a tourist in Venice in the past I noticed that some areas seems to have far more residents than others expecially the northern part of Cannareggio and those parts of Castello around the Arsenale.
It was just an impression due to the fact that you can find less tourists there? or it's true that some parts of the city keep an high density of residents while other parts became more tourist-oriented?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_P View Post
Here's the reason to ask what I wanted to: about Venetian language.
How far is it different from the official Italian (tuscan?) and how widely is it used in Venice (beside street signs) or Veneto as a whole? Is it commonly used in shop names, billboards, advertising or in school education? Are there many books in Venetian sold? By the way, what the language of great Venetian poets and playwrights (like Goldoni, Gozzi etc.) was like? It's interesting how this bilingual thing works (which is not the specific Italian problem of course, but it might be solved differently).
Standard Italian was adopted as lingua franca between intellectuals and educated people from all the countries of Italian peninsula since Renaissance, nearly all italian poets and writers used italian. It keep this status of language for high culture while local languages survived as colloquial languages used in daily life until early 20th century when the introduction of compulsory education and then the advent of radio and later television made italian the native language of all italians.
Since then local languages became less and less spoken. In regions that sustained immigration (north-west, Rome, big cities) nearly nobody still speak it in deaily life while on region of emigration (the south, north-east and rural areas) local languages are still somewhat used in daily life, sometimes even by young people.

Venetian is one of those case of local language that is still quite spoken in daily life, you can also find internet forum with people that write in venetian.

For the differences between local languages in Italy you can look on wikipedia.
In few words: All local languages are language on their own (but Central Italian that is the granmother of Standard Italian), they can be roughly divided in seven languages.
Gallo-Italic is the continuum of most north italian languages. They tend to differs from town to town but they're quite mutually intellegible between each others and bear lot of grammar similarities with french and occitan.
Central Italian is spoken in Tuscany, Latium, Umbria and Marche, is the closest to standard Italian and it's mutually intellegible with it.
Southern(Neapolitan) and "Extreme Southern"(Sicilian) are still quite widespread in all southern regions and, expecially Neapolitan, also have a great quantity artistic and literary production (think about Neapolitan songs)
Then you have Sardinian that is a really unique language, Bavarian German in Alto Adige/South Tyrol, Arpitan French in Aosta Valley and Furlan and Ladin that are rhetoromance languages spoken in part of Friuli and Trentino.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 08:32 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feo View Post
Standard Italian was adopted as lingua franca between intellectuals and educated people from all the countries of Italian peninsula since Renaissance, nearly all italian poets and writers used italian. It keep this status of language for high culture while local languages survived as colloquial languages used in daily life until early 20th century when the introduction of compulsory education and then the advent of radio and later television made italian the native language of all italians.
Since then local languages became less and less spoken. In regions that sustained immigration (north-west, Rome, big cities) nearly nobody still speak it in deaily life while on region of emigration (the south, north-east and rural areas) local languages are still somewhat used in daily life, sometimes even by young people.

Venetian is one of those case of local language that is still quite spoken in daily life, you can also find internet forum with people that write in venetian.

For the differences between local languages in Italy you can look on wikipedia.
In few words: All local languages are language on their own (but Central Italian that is the granmother of Standard Italian), they can be roughly divided in seven languages.
Gallo-Italic is the continuum of most north italian languages. They tend to differs from town to town but they're quite mutually intellegible between each others and bear lot of grammar similarities with french and occitan.
Central Italian is spoken in Tuscany, Latium, Umbria and Marche, is the closest to standard Italian and it's mutually intellegible with it.
Southern(Neapolitan) and "Extreme Southern"(Sicilian) are still quite widespread in all southern regions and, expecially Neapolitan, also have a great quantity artistic and literary production (think about Neapolitan songs)
Then you have Sardinian that is a really unique language, Bavarian German in Alto Adige/South Tyrol, Arpitan French in Aosta Valley and Furlan and Ladin that are rhetoromance languages spoken in part of Friuli and Trentino.
Thank you for your perfect explanation, I couldn't do any better
I'd like to add this Wikipedia map, which shows perfectly every secondary language spoken in the entire Italy besides Italian. Here's the link to the full-size version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...p_of_Italy.png




Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_P View Post
Here's the reason to ask what I wanted to: about Venetian language.
How far is it different from the official Italian (tuscan?) and how widely is it used in Venice (beside street signs) or Veneto as a whole? Is it commonly used in shop names, billboards, advertising or in school education? Are there many books in Venetian sold? By the way, what the language of great Venetian poets and playwrights (like Goldoni, Gozzi etc.) was like? It's interesting how this bilingual thing works (which is not the specific Italian problem of course, but it might be solved differently).
Let me be more specific on Venetian itself.
I'd say that Venetian is hardly intelligible with Italian or other languages spoken in Italy. I find Spanish easier to understand than Neapolitan or Silician, for example.

According to Wikipedia, Venetian (with its variations throughout the region and outside) is a native language for 3,800,000 people, with about 6-7 million people able to understand it. These people live in Veneto and former Venetian Republic territories such as Trieste [actually it was never under Venetian domain, but they speak a variety of Venetian due to immigration], a part of Trentino region, coastal Slovenia, Istria, Dalmatia and Croatian islands of the Kvarner gulf.
Some Venetian-speaking "islands" exist in Sardinia, Latium and South America due to migration and/or following the expulsion of about 250,000 Italians from Yugoslavia after World War II.

There are many spelling systems for Venetian: there's a traditional one, and a new standard one which was proposed by Veneto Region. The system used in nizioleti (street signs) is neither of them, as it's a hybrid between Venetian and Italian. So it's quite a mess

There's not even a single Veneto language, as there's some difference between cities. I can easily recognise which regional variant of Veneto language a person is pseaking, and where he comes from, after a few words.

Despite all these differences, Venetian language is extremely common in informal contexts. I commonly speak Venetian at the supermarket, in shops, post office, bars, with other people when standing in a queue...
I also find it very helpful in Milan, as it allows me to make comments with other Venetians without anybody being able to understand

However the language has little recognition on an official level. It's not taught at school, it's not used in official documents (also because of the lack of a recognised spelling standard) and it's not used in street signs outside Venice centre.

There are very few publications in Venetian language, but it's used a lot in advertisements aimed to the city or region, and there are a lot of songs in Venetian language. One of these took part in 1997 Italian Music Festival of Sanremo, and became famous nationwide. Venetian is also largely used in satyrical dubbing of parts of movies and advertisements.

Modern Venetian is roughly the same language used by Goldoni and other playwrights, even if their language sounds a bit old-fashioned but it's normal, since hundreds of years have passed

I think that Venetian language deserves larger protection, even though it's probably one of the least endangered Italian languages. For example, Milanese is largely perceived as a "language only spoken by old people" and it's being lost, probably due to the huge migration received by the industrial North-West of Italy in the last century.

If you want to hear the different from Venetian and Italian in the same song, you can listen to this song from the satyrical Italian group Elio e le Storie Tese, featuring the Venetian rap group Pitura Freska.
The Venetian part begins at minute 3.20 and ends some 30 seconds later

The most distinctive traits of Venetian are the typical R sound and the absence of the L sound (which is mute, or replaced by a short E sound). This is true for Venice Venetian (the one I can speak), but not for some other variants of the language.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Feo View Post
just found this awesome thread, keep going you're really doing an amazing and helpful job!
Thank you very much Feo, I'm glad that you appreciate my thread

Quote:
I have a question, when I went as a tourist in Venice in the past I noticed that some areas seems to have far more residents than others expecially the northern part of Cannareggio and those parts of Castello around the Arsenale.
It was just an impression due to the fact that you can find less tourists there? or it's true that some parts of the city keep an high density of residents while other parts became more tourist-oriented?
It's exactly true, these peripheral areas have kept a very Venetian and quiet atmosphere, and they still have a large share of inhabited houses and very few hotels.

You can add the western part of Dorsoduro up to Campo Santa Margherita, which is still a very popular area. On the other side I live near St Mark's square, and I'm surrounded by hotels, expensive clothes shops, souvenirs shops and crowd all the time, but very few Venetians. I think it's the same with Florence: the centre is extremely touristic, whereas the Oltrarno (on the other side of the river, but still centre) is the place where Florentinians live and go out in the evening

Some other very densely inhabited areas are the closest islands to Venice: Giudecca, Murano and Sacca Fisola. They're a lot cheaper than Venice, but they're still very easy to reach from the city.
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Last edited by Jasper90; November 13th, 2013 at 09:43 PM.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 12:16 PM   #125
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Bravo Jasper, you've done a superb job.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #126
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Bridges: Accademia

Quote:
Originally Posted by skymantle View Post
Bravo Jasper, you've done a superb job.
Thank you very much, your appreciation is very important to me!

Now I'll go on with the description of bridges

The southernmost bridge on the Grand Canal is Ponte dell'Accademia (Academy bridge), named after the Academy which lies behind (former Convent of Saint Mary of the Charity).

The first bridge was designed by Austrian engineer Alfred Neville, completed in 1854, and it was an iron girder bridge. Before, the only way to cross the Grand Canal was via Rialto bridge, or by boat.

Neville's Accademia bridge was very unpopular with Venetians because of its industrial-looking design and extremely low height (only 4 metres) which impaired navigation. Another very similar bridge was built in front of the train station by the same engineer.

Some decades later the bridge had become rusty and dilapidated, and needed to be replaced. The current wooden bridge was designed in 1933 by Eugenio Miozzi, the chief-engineer of the City Hall department of Public works and services.

The construction took only 37 days to be completed, as it was designed to be temporary. But the final stone-bridge, designed by architects Torres and Briazza, was never built.

Miozzi's wooden bridge was completely reconstructed in 1948 and in 1986 major works were carried out, including the substitution of most wooden pieces and the addition of a metal frame inside the structure.

Since maintenance works on wood are very expensive, a few years ago a competition was announced to build a new bridge. Such bridge had to be cheaper and disabled accessible, and had to keep the metal frame underneath. It also had to be free for the Public Administration, as the works had to be paid by a sponsor who was allowed to put large advertisements on the scaffoldings during the works.

Only one project was presented, for a modern bridge made of marble, steel and glass. However such project was rejected, with typical Italian style, by the Ministry of Cultural Heritage, on grounds that it didn't respect the "historicized image" of the wooden bridge. And the disabled's ramps were deemed too invasive to such historicized image as well

So we'll keep a very expensive bridge with no disabled's crossing, and now we have to spend 2 million euro to maintain the damaged wooden parts. We've lost a great occasion to have a better bridge, due to the "NO - keep things as they are because we're afraid of changing" attitude of our Ministry, and it's not the only example of this happening.

Here's a few pictures. This is Neville iron girder bridge



This picture is probably dated 1880-1890 or even as early as 1860, as Palazzo Cavalli-Franchetti (second on the left) is still to be renovated by architect Camillo Boito, and the first building on the left doesn't exist anymore as it was demolished and replaced by a garden.



The two bridges coexisting in 1933, before the demolition of Neville's bridge.



This is Torres and Briazza's competition-winner stone bridge, designed in 1932 but never built



And this is Carlo Scarpa's proposal, which didn't win the competition. The bridge is divided in three parts: two curved concrete basements and a straight prefabricated steel girder.

I guess this project was too avant-garde for the '30s (and it's probably still too modern nowadays in the Ministry's ideas!). I'm sad that they haven't been brave enough to build this modern-style bridge, as I think Carlo Scarpa is one of the greatest modern architects in Italy.



This is the only picture I could find of the 2011 marble-steel-glass project, rejected by the Ministry. You can notice the steel bottom, which is preserved in the rendering as decided by the rules of the competition.

[IMG]http://i53.************/141ku34.jpg[/IMG]

Here's a video from 1933 showing the opening of the current wooden bridge and disposal of the older iron one. Here's the subtitles:

Quote:
In Venice the unaesthetic iron bridge of the Academy, built under Austrian domain, is temporarily substituted by a single-arcade wooden bridge.

The old bridge (weight = 51,000 kg), removed and laid on a pontoon, is being brought to demolition in Marittima (port) area.


And finally, here's the 1933 wooden bridge by Miozzi, at present day!!

This is the bridge, seen from San Marco side to Dorsoduro. The bricks Gothic building behind the bridge is the Academy,

image hosted on flickr

Ponte dell'Accademia di Albert Photo, su Flickr

This is the other perspective, from Dorsoduro to San Marco. You can notice the dark green steel bottom, and the metal frames on the sides.

image hosted on flickr

Ponte dell'Accademia di Isabel Moguer, su Flickr

A picture from the water, probably taken on a waterbus. Dorsoduro on the left, San Marco on the right.

image hosted on flickr

Venice : Ponte dell'Accademia di Pantchoa, su Flickr

From the top of the bridge, looking down direction San Marco

image hosted on flickr

On Ponte dell'Accademia di HarshLight, su Flickr

This is one of the most famous Venetian sights, from the top of the bridge. Sestiere San Marco on the left, Dorsoduro on the right and Castello on the background. Here's a better picture: http://flic.kr/p/fqzNpN

image hosted on flickr

Accademia Bridge di sincretic, su Flickr

And these are the infamous love-locks which deface the handrail of the bridge, and get constantly removed by volunteers and sold as scrap metal to recycling facilities.

image hosted on flickr

Ponte dell'Accademia di Luis Andrei Mu˝oz, su Flickr
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Old November 5th, 2013, 03:15 PM   #127
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Bridges: Scalzi

Ponte degli Scalzi (bridge of the barefeet) is named after the nearby late-baroque Church of Saint Mary of Nazareth, also called Church of the Scalzi (barefeet) due to it historically belonging to the order of the Barefoot Carmelites.

This bridge was thought in order to link the newly built train station to the other bank of the Grand Canal (Sestiere Santa Croce). It has a very similar history to the bridge of Accademia: an iron girder bridge was built here by the Austrians in 1858, with the same design as the contemporary Accademia bridge.
Both bridges were only 4 metres high and soon showed structural problems, and were also hated by the Venetians because of their industrial design (even though the actual reason of the hatred was probably that they were built by the Austrian occupiers ).

This prompted the City administration to take action, and a new parallel bridge was designed in 1932 by the engineer Eugenio Miozzi (who designed almost everything in that period!) and completed in 1934. The former iron bridge was soon dismantled and removed.

This bridge is an engineering masterpiece: it's extremely thin and light, despite being made of stone. The "secret" is the hidden interior metal frame which runs inside the Istrian stone arcade and into the handrails.

Here's a picture of the two bridges coexisting, taken in 1934:



This is the Scalzi bridge. On the right you can see the Baroque Church of the Scalzi, followed by the Rationalist train station.

image hosted on flickr

Venice - Ponte Scalzi di Biffo1944, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Venice - Ponte Scalzi di Biffo1944, su Flickr

This is the view from the other direction:

image hosted on flickr

Ponte Scalzi at Venice di Steve Barowik, su Flickr

This view is from Cannaregio side towards Sestiere Santa Croce, showing the dome of San Simeon Piccolo church

image hosted on flickr

Ponte Degli Scalzi 2011 di ValeryToth, su Flickr

And this picture is only to show the stone handrail and balaustrade. The train station is hidden on the right.

image hosted on flickr

Ponte degli Scalzi di itaphotoshock, su Flickr
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Old November 5th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #128
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Best post evarrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old November 6th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #129
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Great post

I'm against modernism in historic centres, with a few rare exceptions.
This was definitely the best project
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper90 View Post
This is Torres and Briazza's competition-winner stone bridge, designed in 1932 but never built

Ponte degli Scalzi (1934) is really a good example of how to build today in respect to the historic environment >> IMHO <<
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Old November 6th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #130
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Begging your pardon, I believe Paolo Portoghesi's University Bridge (built 2006) in the close city of Treviso is a very practical example of a modern bridge fitting a historical context.

Of course Canal Grande -as the name suggests- spans farther edges.

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Old November 7th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #131
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Bridges: Costituzione

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Best post evarrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pod░ View Post
Great post

I'm against modernism in historic centres, with a few rare exceptions.
This was definitely the best project


Ponte degli Scalzi (1934) is really a good example of how to build today in respect to the historic environment >> IMHO <<
So you probably won't like Ponte della Costituzione!

This bridge is made of red-painted steel, rough-surfaced glass, trachyte and Istrian stone, whereas the parapet is made of normal glass. It links Piazzale Roma (bus terminal and car park) to the train station.

It's definitely the most controversial bridge on the Grand Canal. It was designed in 1999 by the famous architect Santiago Calatrava, and the construction began in 2003. However, works went on for more than 5 years and the new bridge was finally opened in the night of 11 September 2008, with no opening ceremony due to fear of protests.

Opponents to the bridge had the following reasons:
- Inaccessibility by the disabled
- Reject against the modern design of the bridge
- Perceived uselessness of such a bridge, very close to the existing Ponte degli Scalzi. However this is not true, as it's used a lot, and it has brought a very good renewal of the area around it.
- Linked to the previous, the idea that this bridge was like "a present" to Benetton, the owner of the renewed area which has now been turned into shops and bars. He received a great advantage from the opening of such a bridge.
- Protests by commerciants and restaurants on the other bank of the Grand Canal, because this bridge has largely reduced the touristic passage in front of their shops
- The escalation of the cost of the bridge

As for the price of the bridge, the extimated cost was 6.7 million euro. The final costs were 11.3 million, plus other 1.8 million Ç to build a device for the disabled.

After the opening, a cable car had to be built under the bridge in order to bring the disabled. (I haven't used the term "Gondola lift" as it could be quite misleading in Venice! )
Such cable car, in my opinion, is totally useless as it takes 5 minutes to bring one person on the other side, 10 minutes if the device is on the other side of the bridge. The waterbus is free for the disabled, and takes about 3 minutes to cross the canal, with a very high frequency, giving the disabled a better service (especially if they're travelling in groups). Even some disabled's associations deemed the cable car useless, and it's still not working at the moment.
A very peculiar protest was carried out when, onn 23 February 2013, the cable car should have been opened but the opening was delayed. A few people went on top of the bridge, dressed as skiers, and tried to ski down the bridge.

Due to the high cost and some mistakes in the project of this bridge, the Court of Audit has asked Calatrava 3,886 million euro compensation, whereas the total extimated damage to the public budget is about 7,6 Million Ç. The trial is due to begin on 13 November 2013.

Upkeeping the bridge is extremely expensive as well: a total 14 rough-glass stairs have already been replaced, with a cost between 4 and 7 thousand Ç each!
The proposed solution was to use plexiglass instead of glass on the bridge, but it was rejected by the local Sovrintendenza (cultural heritage department), on grounds that it would have ruined the integrity of the bridge as conceived by Calatrava. I think this rejection is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard

And finally, the arch of the bridge is too low: this is pushing the two banks of the Canal away from each other, and this problem will have to be solved sooner or later, with a huge expense.


As for my personal judgement on this bridge, I think it's very elegant and beautiful. But I can't forget the shame of the huge waste of money this bridge has meant to Venice. Let's wait for the trial to end (we'll have to wait a very long time, because our justice is extremely slow).

Here's a very beautiful unembeddable picture: http://flic.kr/p/diEy2e
And here are other pictures:

image hosted on flickr

Ponte di Calatrava (Venezia) di marcomassarotto, su Flickr


image hosted on flickr

Over Calatrava Bridge di MrZ S, su Flickr

These pictures show Piazzale Roma and the huge Rationalist-style car park, designed in 1931-34 by Eugenio Miozzi (The guy who also designed wooden-Accademia and Scalzi bridges, the bridge connecting to the mainland and Piazzale Roma itself)

image hosted on flickr

venice di JimmyPierce, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Canale Grande and Ponte Calatrava, Venice di michaelday_bath, su Flickr


Aerial view from the top of the car park:

image hosted on flickr

Venezia October 2009 207 di oakleycmh, su Flickr


These are the extremely expensive rough-surface glass steps, and a view towards the bus station of Piazzale Roma (before renovation).

image hosted on flickr

Ponte Calatrava di Aprile C, su Flickr

This is the view from the bridge, towards the city centre. You can see Ponte degli Scalzi in the background.

image hosted on flickr

Venice di stevecadman, su Flickr

[UPDATED] Bottom of the bridge, with cable car on the background. You can also see the cable car's track on the left margin of the bridge.

image hosted on flickr

Venice / Venezia / Venedig di jurip, su Flickr

Before the cable car:

image hosted on flickr

Calatrava Bridge di aussiekidd, su Flickr

Before the bridge itself: http://flic.kr/p/5pm2EC and http://flic.kr/p/5pFeVN

And this is before the '60s, direction Piazzale Roma (car park), when the house with the arcade in the middle and the two houses on its left were demolished. The first building on the left remained, and now it's a hotel. Behind that row of houses, there's Piazzale Roma.

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Last edited by Jasper90; November 13th, 2013 at 09:19 PM. Reason: Updated the picture of the bottom of the bridge
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Old November 7th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #132
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The most distinctive traits of Venetian are the typical R sound and the absence of the L sound (which is mute, or replaced by a short E sound). This is true for Venice Venetian (the one I can speak), but not for some other variants of the language.
Very important clarification, as one thing is "Venice Venetian", one different thing is "mainland venice venetian", and then you have all the different dialects for each city in Veneto.

From my own perspective, Italian is generally the first language for the large majority of people in Veneto. Most people, especially young people, aren't able to write in Venetian, they have a poor knowledge of basic grammar structures of this language, and they tend to use venetian or local dialect mainly as a means to stress some specific points in a mainly italian conversation, or to make jokes.

Of course you also have people able to speak "good" venetian, generally within their families, but this applies mainly to the countryside.

Even when it is used as a language, and not just as a tool to add new shades to the italian language, Venetian vocabulary has been strongly influenced by italian, and many original words have been replaced by adaptations of italian words.

Having said that, Veneto is one of the italian regions where local languages are still quite strong.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 02:21 AM   #133
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@Vittorio Tauber
Ok, we have different opinions of which architecture fits well into historical context
The bridge you posted is not too bad, though
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So you probably won't like Ponte della Costituzione!
EXACTLY ^_^
I mean, I like very much the design (I love Calatrava style!), the problem is the integration with the surroundings (...and of course the others you mentioned)
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Old November 7th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #134
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Thank you guys for your observations. I'm going to give my opinion about modern insertion in a historical context here.

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Originally Posted by vittorio tauber View Post
Begging your pardon, I believe Paolo Portoghesi's University Bridge (built 2006) in the close city of Treviso is a very practical example of a modern bridge fitting a historical context.

Of course Canal Grande -as the name suggests- spans farther edges.

image hosted on flickr


I didn't know this project, despite Treviso being only some 30-40 km from Venice.
In this project I see a great reference to Ponte delle Guglie (Bridge of the Spires) in Venice, Cannaregio area. What do you think?

This bridge was built in 1580, but it was rebuilt and enlarged in 1823 with the present appearance and spires by the Austrians.

image hosted on flickr

Venice : Cannaregio : Ponte delle Guglie di Pantchoa, su Flickr


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Originally Posted by Pod░ View Post
Great post

I'm against modernism in historic centres, with a few rare exceptions.

Ponte degli Scalzi (1934) is really a good example of how to build today in respect to the historic environment >> IMHO <<
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Originally Posted by Pod░ View Post
EXACTLY ^_^
I mean, I like very much the design (I love Calatrava style!), the problem is the integration with the surroundings (...and of course the others you mentioned)
My opinion is that every architectural style is modern to its previous.
We are used to see architecture as "modern vs ancient",and this is largely helped by the association "ancient=decorated" and "modern=plain, unadorned".
But you should try to fit in our ancestors' minds: they were extremely used to lancet or ogee arches, typical of Gothic architecture which flourished in Venice until the 15th century.

image hosted on flickr

Venezia - Sestiere di Cannaregio di fulvio timossi, su Flickr

However, at the end of the 15th century, Renaissance style became very popular. Look at these Renaissance windows with round-arches: we're used to them, but the difference is actually huge!

image hosted on flickr

P1000067 di gzammarchi, su Flickr

I can't imagine how controversial this must have been at the time. There must have been a lot of Renaissance opponents, but if they had won, we'd probably have a completely Gothic city with no variety. It would still be amazing, but the variety of styles is the icing on the cake of the Italian historical centres.
You can see the two styles together in this small picture:
image hosted on flickr

the pink windows di Rech Nicoletta, su Flickr

Here's another example: you can compare the extreme cleanliness (almost rationalist, I'd say!) of Neoclassical style, as opposed to the increasing ornateness of Baroque style.
These are two different fašades of the same church, Santa Maria Formosa, in Sestiere Castello. The Neoclassical fašade was built in 1542, the Baroque fašade dates back to 1604 and the belltower is even more ornate as it's from 1611-1688.

Neoclassical fašade towards the canal:



Baroque fašade towards the square:

image hosted on flickr

Santa Maria Formosa di fcrozat, su Flickr

To sum up, my opinion is that we should build with modern style and not with a mock-up of ancient styles. If we used ancient styles nowadays, our nephews would be nearly unable to recognise our intervention and our architectural ideals. We would "cristalize" the city and turn it into a museum, blocking its lifelong evolution and enrichment.
This doesn't mean that we have to completely reject our previous styles: we can take inspiration from them, and make our own interpretation.

Even in Rationalist buildings in Venice you can still find a very Classical reference (not all of them, though).
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Old November 8th, 2013, 06:12 AM   #135
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The coexistence of different styles of different periods is also so well accepted because the cities have been "consecrated" by history (as it should be!).
If we were to build today, I would lean more toward an eclecticism based on local styles with maybe some original variations, to mantain an acceptable level of homogeneity in the city. Honestly, I think that modern architecture would contrast too much, but in the end it's just a matter of taste and personal sensibilities...
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Old November 9th, 2013, 09:35 AM   #136
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Sestieri: Cannaregio I - Strada Nova, industrial areas, Ghetto

I'll begin to analyze each one of the Sestieri of Venice here.
I'd like to begin with Cannaregio, which is the northernmost one, and the first part of the city you meet when arriving by train.

The name has a few proposed etymologies: Canneto Regio (King's grove of reeds) or Canal Regio (King's Canal). A third, more recent etymology of its name is the Latin word Canaliculus (tiny canal): a few documents from the 11th century have been found, calling the area Canareclo, which might be a word derived from Canaliculus.

It's the most populated Sestiere of the city (13,169 inhabitants in 2007) and the second largest. I personally think it's also one of the most characteristic ones.

I'll just give an overview of the different landscapes of the area, but I'll go into deeper detail in other posts in the future, about some monuments.

The most crowded part of the Sestiere is Strada Nova (New Street), a sort of "boulevard" which was opened by the Austrians and completed by the newborn Italian Kingdom (Venice was annexed to Italy in 1866).
Works went on in different phases in 1818, 1844 and 1871: they included the extensive demolition and rectification of buildings, and the creation of two Rio TerÓ (covered canals, filled with ground).
This street was built because Cannaregio, which used to be very peripheral, suddenly became very crowded after the construction of the Railway Station, and needed a high-capacity street to bring people to the city centre.
Here's the Google Maps link: http://goo.gl/maps/qNm4l

This street has few interesting buildings, as most of the fašades were built in a cheap way after rectification of the angles of existing buildings. There's one bottleneck where a building wasn't demolished because it was the home of the director of works

image hosted on flickr

IMG_4064 di pjbishop93, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Strada Nova di LoquaciousD, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Strada Nuova di raul pacheco, su Flickr

With snow:
image hosted on flickr

IMG_7726 di mesebar2, su Flickr

With high tide: http://flic.kr/p/7jnrMg

On the right you can see the bottleneck, between the orange and yellow buildings, and one of the nicest buildings of the street: former Cinema Italia.
It's a Liberty-Eclectic style cinema/theatre from the beginning of the 20th century, with a distinct Neo-Gothic appearance.

image hosted on flickr

Venice : Campiello de L'Anconeta / Teatro Italia di Pantchoa, su Flickr

However, the really interesting part of Cannaregio is what lies north of Strada Nova.
On the extreme north, just behind the train station, there are a few former industrial sites. I've already shown most of them. Here they are:
- Area Saffa, former matches factory which has been demolished and turned into social housing

- Social Housing by Franco Bortoluzzi

- Former slaughterhouse, now converted to University of Economics (you can see it in this post about Le Corbusier's unrealized hospital)

In the middle of Cannaregio there's the Jewish Ghetto area: the English and Italian word Ghetto originates from Venetian language, as it was originally used to indicate the slag from a foundry which was located in such area.
When the foundry was closed, the area was converted to a housing estate. However on 29 March 1516, after the houses had been inhabited for only a few years, residents were evicted and Jews were forced by a decree to live in the Ghetto.
This area is an island, as it's completely surrounded by a canal. So the only two access bridges were closed with gates at midnight, and the Jews were denied exit until the morning. They also had to pay for a Christian guardian, to keep them from going out.
This adds to the many restrictions which were enacted throughout Venetian history, such as the obligation to wear a distinctive yellow sign or to take part in some jobs such as the loan shark.

After a short time, due to Jews immigration, the Ghetto had to be expanded outside. So, to the first island of Ghetto Novo (New Ghetto), the areas of Ghetto Vecio (Old Ghetto) and Ghetto Novissimo (Very New Ghetto) were added in 1541 and 1633. The names are misleading (New Ghetto is older than Old Ghetto) because they refer to the age of the foundry and not to the age of inclusion in the Ghetto.
Another interesting effect of overcrowdedness is what we would call "densification" (): houses were elevated and some of them reached 8-9 storeys, and are still the tallest residential buildings in the city.

Through almost 3 centuries, many ethnicities of Jews arrived in Venice and built 5 Synagogues, each one for a different community.
Jews were finally set free in 1797 by Napoleon, at the fall of the Venetian Republic, and they were granted equal rights.

However they were criminalized again in 1938, when racial laws were issued by Mussolini. About 200 out of 1300 Jews living in Venice were killed by fascism and nazism, as it's remembered by a stone inscription.

Nowadays there are about 500 active members of the Jewish Community, and most of them still live in Ghetto or in the surroundings.

You can easily see on Google Maps that Ghetto Novo is an island with two bridges: http://goo.gl/maps/eNvGC

This is Campo del Gheto Novo (New Ghetto Square) with "highrises": it's the main square.

image hosted on flickr

Ghetto ebraico di Venezia 12 di Giovy.it, su Flickr

Here's the canal surrounding the Ghetto, with some other highrises

image hosted on flickr

Cannaregio Ghetto di chericbaker, su Flickr

This is the northern exit from Ghetto. You can notice the two orange structures at the sides of the bridge: I think that's where the guardians stayed during the Venetian Republic!

image hosted on flickr

Venice : Ponte de Ghetto Nuovo / Gheto Novo di Pantchoa, su Flickr

Two hundred Jews of Venice
Eight thousand Jews of Italy
Six million Jews of Europe
by the blind and barbarian hate
in far away lands
evicted, massacred, suppressed

The memory of the extremely atrocious offense
to human civilization
should call every man
to the Saint law of God
to feelings of fraternity and love
which were first affirmed by Israel among peoples

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La Lapide in Ghetto Vecchio di Angeli Silenti, su Flickr

Stay tuned for part number II of Cannaregio!
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Old November 10th, 2013, 12:52 AM   #137
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I have some good memories from Cannaregio, the wide canals from the northeastern part are really nice and calm. I also remember finding quite affordable good restaurants in the ghetto area, usually mixing venetian and jewish cuisine.
(you should definitely make a post on venetian cuisine)
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Old November 10th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #138
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Quote:
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I have some good memories from Cannaregio, the wide canals from the northeastern part are really nice and calm.
these are gonna be in post number 2 about Cannaregio

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I also remember finding quite affordable good restaurants in the ghetto area, usually mixing venetian and jewish cuisine. (you should definitely make a post on venetian cuisine)
Thank you for the good idea! I'll definitely make a post about our cuisine, maybe after every Sestiere
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Old November 10th, 2013, 07:46 AM   #139
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Sestieri: Cannaregio II - Fondamenta de la Misericordia

The real heart of Cannaregio are the three parallel Fondamente (literally: foundations, but the word Fondamenta is used in Venetian to indicate a street which faces a canal).

The main and longest one changes 3 names: Fondamenta de la Misericordia (of the Mercy, from the name of a nearby church), dei Ormesini (drapes of Silk originating from Ormus, Persia) and de le Capuzine (from the nearby convent of the female Capuchins, demolished by Napoleon).

This area features a lot of nice restaurants and bars, with many Venetians in addition to the tourists. It begins with the Scuola della Misericordia (School of Mercy): I'll dedicate an entire post to it in the future, since it's one of my favourite Venetian places.
Just before the beginning of this Fondamenta, there's the only Venetian bridge which has never been equipped with a balaustrade. It's a private bridge bringing to a house, so it's scarcely used.
There are many beautiful buildings on the opposite side of the canal, whereas the last part of the Fondamenta is relatively modern, as it features a social housing project from the '20s and '30s, with some of the buildings even more recent.

From east to west: bridge with no balaustrade

image hosted on flickr

Ramo de la misericordia di marco metelli, su Flickr

The beginning of Fondamenta de la Misericordia

image hosted on flickr

Venezia - Misericordia di germano manganaro, su Flickr

Scuola Nuova di Santa Maria della Misericordia (New School of Saint Mary of the Mercy), whereas the old one is on the parallel street



Streetscape

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Fondamenta dei Ormesini (#2) di stefan aigner, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Fondamenta dei Ormesini di stefan aigner, su Flickr

This is a typical Venice picture from that area

image hosted on flickr

Fondamenta degli Ormesini di fhuell, su Flickr

Last part, with modern social housing from the 20s and 30s

image hosted on flickr

fondamenta misericordia di LaraLarissima!!, su Flickr


The rest of the area in the next posts
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Old November 10th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #140
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I quite like the '20s and '30s social housing buildings. Nice density and a design that blends well with the rest of the city.
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