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Old January 4th, 2014, 11:34 AM   #161
Jasper90
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No, seriously? If I were on an organized Venice tour and they put me into that lousy shopping mall, I would want my money back.

Before getting anywhere close to that damn mall, I'd rather prefer seeing the small historic centre of Mestre.
Totally agree. The funny thing about these shopping centres is that they're only reachable by car or shuttle bus, they're in the middle of nowhere and the parking lot is usually larger than the shopping area itself!

There's another one of these "outlets" (as we call them) a little further from Venice, which is very close to the incredibly beautiful "Star city" of Palmanova. Which one of the following is more worth visiting?

Palmanova:




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Palmanova di Alois Staudacher, su Flickr

Or Palmanova Outlet Village?

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Palmanova Outlet Village di bitful, su Flickr

Or maybe its huge parking lot?

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outlet palmanova di ciccio luca, su Flickr
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Old January 4th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #162
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Does that mall always look as deserted? Well, it would deserve it at least, given how incredibly cheesy it looks like.

Anyway, back to Venice. Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread so I might have missed it. Does Venice (proper, not in Mestre) still have a real shopping street or something eqivalent where you find major chain shops (or mabey even old established "real" shops), not just fashion and clothes but a full mix of everything, IT, jewelry, food, toys, shoes, you name it? Or is commerce dead in Venice, tourist shops aside?
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Old January 4th, 2014, 07:12 PM   #163
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Does that mall always look as deserted? Well, it would deserve it at least, given how incredibly cheesy it looks like.
I have no idea, I've never been at that mall and I hope I'll never need it
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Old January 5th, 2014, 01:23 AM   #164
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Nice thread! Thank you very much Jasper! But I realises that especially in Cannaregio are many houses in really not good condition. Is average living standart so low in the center, or are the reconstructions just too expensive?
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Old January 5th, 2014, 06:19 AM   #165
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Nice thread! Thank you very much Jasper! But I realises that especially in Cannaregio are many houses in really not good condition. Is average living standart so low in the center, or are the reconstructions just too expensive?
Thank you for your appreciation!

This is a nice question, but it has more than one answer. I'll give you each one of them

First of all, I'd distinguish between exterior appearance and indoor apartment (therefore living standard). Except when abandoned, those dilapidated-looking houses usually have nice and modern apartments inside.

Italy has a quite high percentage of house ownership: this results in a lot of trouble when trying to put together all the owners of a building and convince them to renew the faēade altogether. There's always at least one neighbor who doesn't want to cooperate and spend money. This is so true that we often make jokes about never-ending fights in condominium assemblies, on TV shows
When we renewed the inside of our apartment, we proposed other owners to apply a new plaster yto the faēade. However we couldn't find an agreement with them, and we were forced to apply the new plaster only to 3rd and 4th floor, leaving 1st and 2nd floor with old plaster

I think Italians are also very keen on saving money: as a general attitude, we tend to repair broken stuff rather than buying a new one, and use something until it becomes unusable. This attitude probably applies to faēades too, and it definitely explains line-drying of clothes. Since we have good weather, tumble-dryers are very rare in Italy and line-drying isn't necessarily associated with poverty.

As a specific Venetian matter, works on buildings tend to be the least invasive possible for conservation issues. It's forbidden to use modern plaster materials on houses built earlier than the 20th century; when you whiten stone, you tend to leave it a little grey in order not to wear it, you can't use concrete or metal on an old building...

It's also a matter of leaving the city "not too shiny": if Venice was kept like Monaco, I think it'd lose a lot of its appeal and could even look a little "fake". I think a slight dilapidation adds mystery and charm to the city.

They often decide for something that I would call "programmed dilapidation": take a look at this beautiful yellow building here: http://goo.gl/maps/ecV3E
It was renewed no more than 10 years ago, but they were told to apply a thin layer of plaster so that some parts of it would soon be removed by the rain and atmosphere. I think the result looks very nice, it's like when guys stand for hours at the mirror trying to recreate an uncombed-looking hair

However, some bad and uncontrolled dilapidation exists in abandoned buildings and on the banks of some canals. This is due to the fact that most of the Special Funds for Venice Safeguard are being turned to MO.SE construction, leaving very little for their original purpose.

We'll have to wait until 2015-2016 to resume the very expensive ordinary upkeeping of canals and foundations, when MO.SE will be completed (excluding delays, which are very likely since we're in Italy )
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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:11 PM   #166
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Thanks for answer! I have another question, is any service for inhabitants in the center? I found only one school and one non-tourist shop in relatively large area...
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:53 PM   #167
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Thanks for answer! I have another question, is any service for inhabitants in the center? I found only one school and one non-tourist shop in relatively large area...
Yes, there are but they can be kinda hard to notice
Venice is the administrative center and capital city of the region Veneto (although regions have smaller power, compared to US states, as Italy is not a federal country). So we have many administrative offices and lots of schools, with many people communting from the surrounding areas.

As for shops for residents, this is kind of a problem. However, many tourists shops also have cheaper stuff which tourists don't need to buy (e.g.: a visitor would not buy a frying pan ). As a general idea, shops for Venetians tend to be in smaller and less crowded streets where rent is cheaper, because Venetians know the location of such shops and don't need to find them by chance.
Even some grand palaces on the Grand Canal look like hotels, but they're actually services! Let me show you some examples:

Palazzo Labia, the white Baroque building at the right of the belltower, is the local seat of Italian public TV channel (RAI)
Streetview links:
Water faēade http://goo.gl/maps/5W6WT
Street faēade http://goo.gl/maps/NzVq2

image hosted on flickr

San Geremia e Palazzo Labia di Blueocean64, su Flickr

Take a look at this picture: the Gothic building is Ca' Foscari, main seat of the Uniersity of Venice. It's also the oldest Leed Gold certificated building in the world, as it's dated 1453.
The white building you can see at the right is the Fire Brigade central station, and was built around 1930 with some covered water entrances to keep fire brigade boats from the rain.
Streetview links:
Ca' Foscari http://goo.gl/maps/7mvEk
Fire brigade http://goo.gl/maps/89bz3
image hosted on flickr

Venezia, Ca' Foscari di Giorgio Zanetti, su Flickr

This very simple building is called Fontego del Megio (Millet warehouse). It ws used to store millet during Venetian Republic since when it was built in the 13th century, but nowadays it's an elementary and middle school! It's undergoing renovation at the moment. Streetview link: http://goo.gl/maps/8E28Q

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Fondaco-Deposito del Megio - Grand Canal - Venice, Italy by www.museum planet.com 104.jpg di MuseumPlanet.com, su Flickr

I had already made a post about our hospital, and you can find it here
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...8&postcount=84
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Old January 6th, 2014, 01:53 AM   #168
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Great thread!! I love everything Venice and find the city and its history so fascinating. Thank you for all the pictures and information!

But it's depressing to see how all the cruise ships and thousands of tourists are overrunning the city and turning it more into a theme park since all the locals are moving out. The hoards of crowds can ruin one's experience in Venice...for locals and tourists alike. If the city charged an entrance fee (like some cities charging tolls on freeways into downtown for example) to visitors, it could help manage crowds, provide better experience for everybody there, and help raise money to preserve and maintain Venice for years to come.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:14 PM   #169
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Great thread!! I love everything Venice and find the city and its history so fascinating. Thank you for all the pictures and information!

But it's depressing to see how all the cruise ships and thousands of tourists are overrunning the city and turning it more into a theme park since all the locals are moving out. The hoards of crowds can ruin one's experience in Venice...for locals and tourists alike. If the city charged an entrance fee (like some cities charging tolls on freeways into downtown for example) to visitors, it could help manage crowds, provide better experience for everybody there, and help raise money to preserve and maintain Venice for years to come.
Hi! Thank you for your appreciation, and sorry for my late answer

Tourism is expected to grow in the city to huge numbers. It wouldn't be a problem... if Venice was larger!

The proposal an entrance ticket to Venice (Venice tax) has often been debated, and it comes back at every election. I'm quite skeptical, as I think it's hardly applicable without damaging the residents as well.

There are a lot of ways a tourists can come to Venice:
- Car
- Train
- Bus (from surrounding cities)
- Park and ride in Mestre + bus/train/tram (in a few months)
- Airplane + bus/waterbus
- Cruise ship
- Ferry boat from Croatia and Greece
- Medium-sized boat or hydrofoil from surrounding seaside cities and Croatia/Slovenia, full with day-tripping people
- Public transport boats of people sleeping in surrounding seaside towns (Chioggia, Sottomarina, Cavallino, Jesolo) and day-tripping to Venice

As you can see, the problem is quite complex. Some of these people would be easily taxed, e.g. you can raise the price of parking in Venice. This automatically excludes Venetians and commuters, who would rent the parking spot for longer periods.
But it becomes a lot harder as you need to distinguish between tourists and commuters: how can you apply this tax to a train ticket? You would need a whole load of exceptions for people working in Venice, going to the hospital, studying in Venice, visiting their grandma...
Some situations are even hard to check: for example, if a Venetian gets his boat, goes to Treporti, lifts up 3 tourists and brings them to Venice, who would check that they've paid the tax?
Would there be a tax receipt and police controls, in order to demonstrate that you're either Venetian, worker in Venice or tax-payer?

I think this would risk to make life harder for Venetians as well, when their friends from outside come to visit us. They already have to pay 7 euro for public transport!

An easier solution is called "Tassa di soggiorno" and it's a tax for people renting accommodation in the city. It's something around 1-2 euro per night per people, and it's applied in most Italian cities. The revenue goes directly to the city district, but as you can imagine it excludes all the day-trippers.

Other problems with a Venice ticket would be:
- If the tax was small (12 euro) it would have very little impact on reducing tourism. If the tax was higher (10-15 euro) it would be quite a burden for people who need to go to Venice for any reason and can't get an exemption.
- I think such tax would be nearly certainly be turned down by the Constitutional Court.
- If tourism were to be discouraged with some tax, the city would become affordable only by rich people, somehow disrupting a lot of its livelyhood and atmosphere.

These are my ideas, but the difficult application of this tax explains why it was never adopted, even if it's always being taken into consideration.

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Old March 31st, 2014, 06:10 PM   #170
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Hi Jasper,
there are special restrictions for the citizens on moving with the boat or more simply with a rowboat?
A tourist can rent a small boat to run about in the canals?
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Old April 4th, 2014, 07:34 PM   #171
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Hi! Thank you fot your question



There are many remaining buildings from Byzantine period. A very famous example of Romanic-Byzantine is St Mary and Donato's church, in Murano. It was built in the 12th century, and restored about 30 years ago by the lovely British charity "Venice in Peril Fund".


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Murano church di rhugo, su Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Murano church di Miss*K, su Flickr

Another notable example is the Basilica of Santa Maria Assunta in Torcello island. The island was the first inhabited center of Venice lagoon, before Venice itself, but now it's nearly uninhabited at the moment: it has 15 residents!

The present Basilica was built in 1008 and hosts a very beautiful mosaic of the Last Judgement. It's the building on the left, whereas the church on the right is Santa Fosca (12th century). Santa Fosca is notable because it has Greek cross shape, typical of Byzantine architecture.

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Torcello di lostghost, su Flickr

EDIT: Here I've added a picture of Saint Mark's Basilica, which is the most beautiful and famous example of Byzantine architecture!! (With snow)

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Snow in Piazza San Marco di manhattanx39, su Flickr

The works of 1970's on Santa Maria e Donato in Murano concerned mainly the wonderful polychrome mosaic pavement that was removed.
A concrete waterproof basin was built and the mosaic restored and re-placed.
The exterior was not modified from the works of 1858/1973
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Old June 5th, 2014, 12:28 AM   #172
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As a Venetian, moving around the city at daytime can be quite a pain in the ass. However, there's a strange phenomenon where some streets are extremely crowded and some others are desert, even with thousands of tourists.
Sorry, I'm a latecomer on your thread.
I was just wondering, did anybody think of designing a bicycle network in Venice ?
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Old June 5th, 2014, 02:27 AM   #173
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What type of bicycle?


http://dailyphotostream.blogspot.it/2014/02/water-bikes.html
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Old June 5th, 2014, 04:33 AM   #174
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News: Venice mayor arrested, along with 35 people

Time to revive this thread!!
I usually don't post crurrent news, but what happened today is huge!
Here's my resume of the Italian article by La Repubblica


Venice mayor, Giorgio Orsoni, was arrested today and he's accused of illegally receiving 450,000 € by the "New Venice Consortium", who are building MOSE (the dam to prevent Venice from fooding). This happened in 2010 when the mayor was running for elections.

As for today, a total 35 people were arrested and more than 100 are under investigation. Other arrested notable people is Renato Chisso, Regional councilor for transportation, and Giancarlo Galan, former president of Region Veneto from 1995 to 2010. Galan isn't actually under arrest but, being a member of parliament, the arrest must be voted and approved by the Chamber of Deputees.

These two people are accused of corruption as Galan received a steady payment of 1M € per year directly by the president of New Venice Consortium. This money was in exchange for the positive response given to the Consortium about environmental and landscape issues on the areas where MOSE was built. The (former) president of the Consortium is under arrest too.
Chisso, on the other hand, received a similar "illegal salary" of 200-250,000 € from the end of the '90s till 2013, in exchange for his corruption.

The main builders' firm working on MOSE (and also on Milan 2015 EXPO), Mantovani, inflated costs in order to receive 20 M € more than their work was worth. That money has been brought to banks in Switzerland. The head of Mantovani, Piergiorgio Baita, had already been arrested last year.

Many other people were arrested for corruption, and these include bribed members of Financial Police (Guardia di Finanza), 2 former presidents of the Water Ministry (Magistrato alle Acque), a magistrate of the Court of Auditors (Corte dei Conti) and several presidents of other firms with roles in MOSE.


Resume from this article: http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/201...ezia-88004605/



As you can see, this is a huge corruption scandal. All this was possible to predict at the very moment when MOSE began being built, because they used a mechanism where New Venice Consortium was in charge of every single choice. They didn't need to call for tenders in order to assign work to firms, but they could just decide which firm had to do it. This causes huge corruption in any case, and so Venetians clearly expected this scandal to happen. However, I didn't expect our mayor (who is an ******* anyway) to be so involved.

I'm glad all this came out, and justice tastes very sweet
This will bring a huge cleanse for our politics, and a huge change for the future of Venice. Similar corruption was recently unearthed in many other areas of Italy such as Milan and Genoa. I forecast that a lot of other people will be arrested in the next few months.

It's funny to notice that both Orsoni and Chisso, who were the main candidates for being next mayor of Venice (next year), are now in jail

I'm once again glad that all this huge filth came out. I think Italy is going to be a far better place after that, and I really think something is changing

Feel free to ask any questions or to ask me to clarify on this topic, if you're interested. And I'll bring you news on it, too!

Now I can bo back to answering your questions
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Old June 5th, 2014, 08:41 PM   #175
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What type of bicycle?


http://dailyphotostream.blogspot.it/2014/02/water-bikes.html
Normal people's (*or mainstream people if you wish) bicycles.
That idea is good though I must admit.
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Old June 6th, 2014, 06:05 AM   #176
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Hi Jasper,
there are special restrictions for the citizens on moving with the boat or more simply with a rowboat?
A tourist can rent a small boat to run about in the canals?
And now, finally, let's answer this question! :cheers.

Rowboats, canoes, kayaks and any kind of boat without motor are unrestricted in the lagoon. You can basically do whatever you wish and go anywhere, provided that you're intelligent (e.g.: you shouldn't go in the middle of the harbour mouths with a kayak, because the current is very strong and can quickly bring you in the middle of the sea! It'd be like riding a bicycle on a motorway )

Motor boats, on the other hand, have the following rules.

If the motor is over 40 Horse Power (30 kW), you need the nautical licence.
If the boat is small and has a motor from 40 HP downwards, you can drive it since the age of 16 without any kind of licence.

That power is more than enough for smaller boats in the lagoon. Here's a picture from Burano island: all those boats are small (barchini) and they can be driven by anybody over 16.


Colors at sunset di mondopiccolo, su Flickr

In addition to that, you need to follow all the traffic rules and "street" signs! Here's a few:

- We have speed limits and they're very restrictive: 5 km/h in all urban areas, 7 km/h in the Grand Canal and Cannaregio Canal, 11 km/h around the perimeter of Venice, 15 or 20 km/h in the rest of the lagoon. Only public transport is allowed to ignore such speed limits.
- Some canals, especially the smaller ones, are one-way or only accessible by non-motor boats.
- Most importantly, the majority of the lagoon is quite shallow and so it's not accessible. In order to connect Venice to other islands and to the sea, some deeper canals were dug in the shallows. These canals are easily recogniseable because they're bordered with Bricole (wooden poles). You must follow these canals and avoid going behind these poles, otherwise you risk getting beached.

Here's a map showing the depth of the lagoon (the darker, the deeper). It clearly shows the canals which were dug throughout the lagoon to connect the islands, and all the lighter area is no deeper than 1 or 1.5 metres. Some of the canals look very thin on the map, such as the one on the west coast of all Lido island.



Here's a few pictures to show this better.
On the right there's the canal, dug in the shallows, connecting Venice to Fusina (industrial area). There are two parallel rows of bricole and only the enclosed area is deep. The rest is forbidden for boats.

You can also see a disrooted pole to indicate an underground gas pipeline and two electrical poles.


Fusina2 di idnotavailable, su Flickr

Speed limit with a seagull on top


Gabbiani #7 di Tommaso Citton, su Flickr

These bricole need to be replaced


L'acqua magna i pałi - Water eats the poles di Daisuke Ido, su Flickr

Only rowboats are allowed on this tiny canal


Waterway sign di Matteo Melchior, su Flickr

One way only, no taxis and public transport allowed, seagull


Senza titolo di zeropuntosedici, su Flickr

Last but not least, the main problem of boats is where to moor ("park") them.
The local regulations require you to first buy the boat, THEN ask for a personal mooring place for it. As stupid as it is, this law makes you need to rent a place at the dockyard in the meantime for some 100-200 €/month

Receiving a personal mooring space can take years, because there's a long queue and very few places. Furthermore, when you finally get it, it's very likely that it'll be quite far away from your home

Some of the places are directly accessible from the street. However, some others face the wall of a house and you can't access them normally. You need to buy a tiny inflatable rubber boat and inflate it every time you need to reach the boat, so that you can row those few meters from the street to your boat.

All these reasons make the possession of a boat quite hard, or expensive. Therefore, Venetians only use their boat to go on trips around the lagoon in the summer, to go fishing and for other activities in their free time. They aren't used as a private transport and they aren't the equivalent of cars/motorcycles/bicycles in other cities.
Me and my family, for instance, don't own a boat. Our friends do, so we often go all together to get suntanned on the northern part of the lagoon

The only people who sometimes use their private boat as if it was a car/moto/bike are people who live in remote islands such as Sant'Erasmo, but they'll choose public transport if they can as it's far cheaper.

As for tourists, they can rent a boat and drive it as they wish (again, with the 16-years-old and 40 HP clauses). I hope they receive enough information about the rules to respect while driving!
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Old June 14th, 2014, 10:58 PM   #177
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[IMG]http://i58.************/4grebt.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i57.************/qs76sx.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i58.************/zkpr3r.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i62.************/28jhaqb.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i61.************/2qc4742.jpg[/IMG]
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Old June 19th, 2014, 03:25 PM   #178
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Thanks for your pictures Macilic!
I really like them, especially because it's not easy to make some nice night pictures of the city. I'll reuse the first one, because it shows Palazzo dei Dieci Savi, the seat of Magistrato alle Acque (Water Magistrate). It's the institution which should have controlled the mobile dam construction and protected it against corruption, but it had instead become the "slut" of the dam's developers. Both the last two Magistrates are now in jail for corruption, and the institution itself has been suppressed and unified with the regional office for public works (in the same building in the picture). This should make stuff better and more transparent.

[IMG]http://i58.************/4grebt.jpg[/IMG]

Here's some other recent news: the mayor has bargained and agreed with 4 months' jail and 15,000 € fine, for illegal financing of his party. He won't go to jail because you don't go to jail under 3 years in Italy if it's your first criminal offense (I know, it's crazy) and so now he's free.
He has resigned, but it's not so obvious as it seems: he has tried to keep his seat, saying that it was not his fault and he didn't know that the financing was illegal... And he's a lawyer!!!
He even risks being expelled from the Italian Law Society (Ordine degli Avvocati)
We'll probably have elections in September. Bye Bye Giorgio Orsoni!



In the next post, I'll answer to Cadīr's question
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Old June 19th, 2014, 05:00 PM   #179
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Quote:
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Sorry, I'm a latecomer on your thread.
I was just wondering, did anybody think of designing a bicycle network in Venice ?
Hi, thank you for reading my thread!

First of all, you can see what areas of Venice and surroundings are accessible by car or bike, on the following link. I've updated that post because shitty imageshack had deleted the maps Now it's fully visible.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...49&postcount=3

A bicycle network has never been designed for Venice because it'd be impossible, unless making huge changes to the city.
The main problems to bikes would be:

- There's usually a bridge every 20 to 400 metres, so you'd need to get on and get off the bike continuously and drag it on the steps. E.g. from St Mark's square to Piazzale Roma it's 2.3 km with 10 bridges!
- A lot of streets, including very important ones, are very narrow and always crowded. You couldn't ride your bike quickly and/or safely. Sometimes there's only enough room for two people walking in opposite directions, let alone two bicycles.
- Most houses don't have a yard or even a shed at the ground floor where to put the bike. Behind the doors you usually only find a set of stairs with nothing else, and ground floors are used for shops or as very full warehouses.

So I don't think you could ever make bicycles easy to use in Venice, not even with very big changes.
Just to give you the idea, this is the normal crowd in normal days on some central streets. It'd be hard to ride your bike safely


Venice Street di djking, su Flickr


Venice Gelato di Brett Bentsen, su Flickr


Venezia. Venice. di elsa11, su Flickr

And here's an extreme example, during Carnival


Sea of People di Daniele Sartori, su Flickr


However, it's very different for the three islands where cars are allowed (Lido, Pellestrina and Sant'Erasmo) and for the bridge linking Venice to Mestre.
They're planning to build a cycling lane on the bridge, so that you can arrive in Venice by bike safely.
When you get to Venice, you can either:
- park the bike in a specific facility at Piazzale Roma (bus terminal) and walk
- carry the bike by hand
- go to Tronchetto and board it on the ferry which brings cars to Lido
- board it on some other public transport to surrounding islands (Sant'Erasmo).

Lido and Pellestrina are very bike-friendly: they even ran part of Giro d'Italia (bike competition) in Lido. They're both "normal" places, with cars, buses and bikes.

These are bikes in Lido and Venice is visible in the background


BICIS LIDO - VENECIA di canoski99, su Flickr

This is the most spectacular bike route in Pellestrina. The water on the left is the Lagoon, whereas the water on the right is Adriatic Sea.


Pellestrina_070925 059 di NAME=NICK, su Flickr


La Bicicletta di .chourmo., su Flickr
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Old June 22nd, 2014, 10:24 PM   #180
Fab87
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I already know most things that are discussed here but this thread never ceases to amuse me...

One question: how does a true venetian (mestre and marghera are just like normal cities) learn to ride a bike? Do your parents take you to Parco San Giuliano or Lido when you're a child and let you practice?



from Chioggia to Punta Sabbioni via bike (and ferries). Easily one of the most interesting bike routes in the world. The smell of fresh mussels...
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