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Old August 29th, 2013, 12:48 AM   #1
elliot42
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DETROIT | Public Transport

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Detroit "people mover" by nicolasnova, on Flickr




I once saw a thread somewhere (maybe not on here) about abandoned subway stations in detroit, with a link to photos. Does anyone know anything about that? Can you point me in that direction?

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Old September 23rd, 2013, 07:07 PM   #2
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Found them (I think)!:



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Old September 23rd, 2013, 09:29 PM   #3
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There is a subway system in Detroit?

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Old September 23rd, 2013, 10:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nr23Derek View Post
There is a subway system in Detroit?

Derek
I've never heard of one, but according to one web site, there is a closed up entrance on W. Jefferson Ave. near the south end of Springwells.
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 10:48 PM   #5
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Was anything every built, track, tunnels, or stations?

This is the first I have heard of this. I know Cincinatti haa a small never opened system.
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Old September 24th, 2013, 12:14 AM   #6
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Perhaps they are thinking of old salt mine line?



The mine:


http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/detroit-salt-mine
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Old September 24th, 2013, 12:31 AM   #7
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No, it is a another system it appears. A tread here talking about the same: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/in...etroit-subway/

I guess this the site dwdwone got his info from (?).
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Old September 24th, 2013, 12:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
No, it is a another system it appears. A tread here talking about the same: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/in...etroit-subway/

I guess this the site dwdwone got his info from (?).
That was one of them. This other site talks about no less than 4 tunnels.

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/91697/93395.html
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Old September 24th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nr23Derek View Post
There is a subway system in Detroit?

Derek
Detroit don't have a subway system, but a people mover system operates in Downtown:


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/art...banism-detroit


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover

In the other hand, there are a project for a commuter rail line from Detroit to Ann Arbor, with ex-Metra gallery cars.
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Old September 24th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #10
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The People Mover is nothing more than a one-way circular route and not an effective transit system.
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Old September 24th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #11
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There's the M1 light rail line along woodward (that will connect downtown to new center) that should start construction in the next months or so.
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Old September 24th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
The People Mover is nothing more than a one-way circular route and not an effective transit system.
Yes, It's true. Detroit People Mover don't have a good transfer to DDOT buses (the main public transportation system in the city) and Windsor Tunnel Bus.

By the way, Amtrak Station is so far from Downtown Detroit, very difficult for people who use public transportation. Detroit took the motto City of Cars very seriously.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 04:13 AM   #13
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Where were the alleged subway station photos taken?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:46 AM   #14
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Those entrances look very small and very close to the roadway - even for pedestrian underpasses.

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Old September 25th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #15
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(Duplicate post)
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Last edited by JustinB; September 25th, 2013 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Member already posted info.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 08:51 PM   #16
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LRT/streetcars seems to be "flavour of the month" in the US and Detroit is following suit. with the obscene waste of money that is the Woodward streetcar.

Some will say it will revive the street and create some nice TOD which I am sure is true but that is not a reason to build it. The 1st, 2nd, and last reason for the existence of a transit agency's existence is to move people and anything that results from the is gravy. Creating "complete neighbourhoods" is NOT the responsibility of the transit agency but rather urban planning dept.

Nearly all the US cities that have gotten on to the streetcar bandwagon in the last decade have done so for no other reason than "everyone else is doing it". Just because those cities choose to waste money doesn't mean Detroit should follow suite. This is the same mentality in the 50's with replacing the streetcars with buses because "everyone else is doing it".

Will the Woodward streetcar improve ridership along the corridor? Probably but that is not reason enough to build it. In order to truly guage the success of a transit line is not to show rise in ridership along the current bus route along the street and when ridership increases declare it a huge success. What a fair analogy is to compare it to what the same amount of money spent would have done to the entire ridership if they had built, for example, a BRT system.

Often new political lines like this actually lead to a DECREASE in over all transit ridership because the subsidies required for the line and the amount they have spent on the line instead of improving/expanding their current bus system leads to a bleeding of the system in operational expenditures.

In short, these new lines often rob Peter to pay Paul even though Paul will serve FAR fewer people along a very narrow corridor.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
The 1st, 2nd, and last reason for the existence of a transit agency's existence is to move people and anything that results from the is gravy. Creating "complete neighbourhoods" is NOT the responsibility of the transit agency but rather urban planning dept.
Why? Seems a reasonable objective to me, but then from my POV the transit agency should be a part of the planning dept, I mean they're not exactly unrelated functions are they!

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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Often new political lines like this actually lead to a DECREASE in over all transit ridership because the subsidies required for the line and the amount they have spent on the line instead of improving/expanding their current bus system leads to a bleeding of the system in operational expenditures.
Except the fact, that LRT tend to have lower cost per pass*km than buses, so requiring less subsidy, while expanding bus while cheaper in short run, will require more subsidy for operation.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 02:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Except the fact, that LRT tend to have lower cost per pass*km than buses, so requiring less subsidy, while expanding bus while cheaper in short run, will require more subsidy for operation.
The following are some statistics from a comparison of the Light Rail Gold Line and Bus Rapid Transit Orange Line in Los Angeles < http://www.metro.net/news/facts-glance/ >. I use these two lines as they were originally built and subsequently extended during similar time periods, have similar lengths, and are located in the same city.

Average Weekday Boardings
Gold Line LRT: 43,439
Orange Line BRT: 30,231

Route Length
Gold Line LRT: 19.7 miles
Orange Line BRT: 18 miles

Number of Stations
Gold Line LRT: 21
Orange Line BRT: 18

Construction Cost
Gold Line LRT: $1.8 billion
Orange Line BRT: $484 million

The Gold Line LRT has higher overall ridership, but the Orange Line BRT has much lower construction cost per rider. The above numbers don't include operations and maintenance cost. A similar "quick facts" webpage in 2009 did include operations and maintenance cost numbers, which showed that the Orange Line BRT had a much lower operating cost per rider. The following are the 2009 numbers.

Average Weekday Boardings (March 2009)
Gold Line LRT: 24,293
Orange Line BRT: 22,334

Route Length
Gold Line LRT: 13.7 miles
Orange Line BRT: 14 miles

Stations
Gold Line LRT: 13
Orange Line BRT: 13

Construction Cost
Gold Line LRT: $859 million
Orange Line BRT: $330 million

FY2009 Operations Budget
Gold Line LRT: $44 million
Orange Line BRT: $23 million

Another data point I can offer is a study performed for the Capitol Hill Streetcar in Seattle. The following are the cost estimates for streetcar and electric trolley bus alternatives.

Construction Cost
Streetcar: $129.7 - $149.2 million
Electric Trolley Bus: $13.4 - $15.4 million

Annual Operating Cost
Streetcar: $5.2 million
Electric Trolley Bus: $3.5 million

I've seen other data that shows light rail to have lower cost per passenger than regular city buses, but those comparisons typically include data from bus routes that don't have the ridership potential to justify light rail.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 02:45 AM   #20
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Almost immediately after I hit the "Post" button, I found the operating and maintenance budges for the Orange Line BRT and Gold Line LRT under a different tab on the "facts" webpage. The following is an amended version of the numbers presented above for 2013.

Average Weekday Boardings
Gold Line LRT: 43,439
Orange Line BRT: 30,231

Route Length
Gold Line LRT: 19.7 miles
Orange Line BRT: 18 miles

Number of Stations
Gold Line LRT: 21
Orange Line BRT: 18

Construction Cost
Gold Line LRT: $1.8 billion
Orange Line BRT: $484 million

2013 Operations Budget
Gold Line LRT: $65.2 million
Orange Line BRT: $29.4 million
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