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Old September 26th, 2013, 06:28 AM   #21
ssiguy2
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These figures are made even more dramatic by the fact that L.A's Gold Line goes downtown while the Orange Line is suburban.

If that $140 million for the streetcar was instead used for the expansion of the current fleet, Detroit would have over 300 brand new buses on the road with their fuel savings and operational savings of using current older and run down buses that spend half their time at the maintenance yard.

This also doesn't include the huge expense of maintaining the streetcar wires and tracks.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 06:54 AM   #22
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The distance of this People mover is actually very short. It runs on a length of 4.7 km and has 13 stations..
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The Gold Line LRT has higher overall ridership, but the Orange Line BRT has much lower construction cost per rider. The above numbers don't include operations and maintenance cost. A similar "quick facts" webpage in 2009 did include operations and maintenance cost numbers, which showed that the Orange Line BRT had a much lower operating cost per rider. The following are the 2009 numbers.

Average Weekday Boardings (March 2009)
Gold Line LRT: 24,293
Orange Line BRT: 22,334

Route Length
Gold Line LRT: 13.7 miles
Orange Line BRT: 14 miles

Stations
Gold Line LRT: 13
Orange Line BRT: 13

Construction Cost
Gold Line LRT: $859 million
Orange Line BRT: $330 million

FY2009 Operations Budget
Gold Line LRT: $44 million
Orange Line BRT: $23 million

Another data point I can offer is a study performed for the Capitol Hill Streetcar in Seattle. The following are the cost estimates for streetcar and electric trolley bus alternatives.

Construction Cost
Streetcar: $129.7 - $149.2 million
Electric Trolley Bus: $13.4 - $15.4 million

Annual Operating Cost
Streetcar: $5.2 million
Electric Trolley Bus: $3.5 million

I've seen other data that shows light rail to have lower cost per passenger than regular city buses, but those comparisons typically include data from bus routes that don't have the ridership potential to justify light rail.
Well, just to clarify, does road maintenance for BRT included in this cost, or does it financed externaly, just as any other street?
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Old September 26th, 2013, 06:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Well, just to clarify, does road maintenance for BRT included in this cost, or does it financed externaly, just as any other street?
One thing about just posting numbers comparing the modes, is that you don't get a sense of what was built for that amount.

For example, the Transitway was built along an existing rail corridor. How much was spent of property aquisition, utilty relocation, etc.

The Gold Line have section that in are in tunnel, elevated, and that is going to add significantly to the costs of any project.

Construction costs can vary widely between any project. For example the Hartford busway is going to cost a whopping 572 Million for a 9.4 mile busway in an abandoned rail ROW.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/CT_...te_profile.pdf

I find a lot of anti-rail folks like to use this strategy to justify building their desired mode, or pushing for grade-seperated project when an at grade project will do.

I, for one see the benefits of BRT, LRT, Subways, trolleybuses, and streetcars (Though modern streetcars design needs to be looked at), and I find it's necessary to push back against people who are biased toward one mode over another.

Posting stats is fine, if you want to fool ignorant people, not so much on a board like SCC.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Well, just to clarify, does road maintenance for BRT included in this cost, or does it financed externaly, just as any other street?
The Orange Line BRT in Los Angeles operates in its own dedicated right of way for most of the length of the route. The transit agency is responsible for maintaining the pavement within the dedicated right of way.

For the Capitol Hill Streetcar in Seattle, the transit agency would not have been responsible for maintaining the road for the electric trolley bus option. The transit agency most certainly will be responsible for maintaining the rails for the streetcar. I don't know the specifics of the arrangements in Seattle, but in some cities the transit agency is also responsible for mainting the asphalt immediately adjacent to the rails.

Last edited by greg_christine; September 27th, 2013 at 12:45 AM.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 12:43 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
One thing about just posting numbers comparing the modes, is that you don't get a sense of what was built for that amount.

For example, the Transitway was built along an existing rail corridor. How much was spent of property aquisition, utilty relocation, etc.

The Gold Line have section that in are in tunnel, elevated, and that is going to add significantly to the costs of any project.

Construction costs can vary widely between any project. For example the Hartford busway is going to cost a whopping 572 Million for a 9.4 mile busway in an abandoned rail ROW.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/CT_...te_profile.pdf

I find a lot of anti-rail folks like to use this strategy to justify building their desired mode, or pushing for grade-seperated project when an at grade project will do.

I, for one see the benefits of BRT, LRT, Subways, trolleybuses, and streetcars (Though modern streetcars design needs to be looked at), and I find it's necessary to push back against people who are biased toward one mode over another.

Posting stats is fine, if you want to fool ignorant people, not so much on a board like SCC.
Regarding the construction of the Orange Line BRT and the Gold Line LRT, the initial segments of BOTH were built in existing rail corridors.

Regarding cost, let's see:

The cost to build a BRT line ranges up to $572 million/9.4 miles = $61 million per mile for the Harford Busway.

The Orange Line BRT is probably more typical at $330 million/13.7 miles = $24 million per mile.

Some BRT lines are a lot cheaper. The SBX line in San Bernardino is being built for $191.7 million/15.7 miles = $12 million per mile.

The cheapest recent double-track LRT line that I am aware of is Norfolk's, which cost $318 million/7.4 miles = $43 million per mile.

The most expensive recent LRT line is ... what are the latest numbers for the University extension in Seattle? The starter segment in Seattle cost $2.44 billion/13.9 miles = $176 million per mile.

Last edited by greg_christine; September 27th, 2013 at 12:21 PM.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 12:10 PM   #27
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Returning to the main subject of this thread, Detroit had a heritage streetcar line from 1974 to 2003 < http://www.heritagetrolley.org/existDetroit1.htm >.

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Old September 27th, 2013, 12:17 PM   #28
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The following are some photos I took on the downtown peoplemover. Regardless of whatever criticism is offered of the line, I liked it. It was fast, offered great views of the downtown area, and was relatively cheap to ride. Detroit actually looks attractive from the peoplemover line.







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Old September 27th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Regarding the construction of the Orange Line BRT and the Gold Line LRT, the initial segments of BOTH were built in existing rail corridors.

Regarding cost, let's see:

The cost to build a BRT line ranges up to $572 million/9.4 miles = $61 million per mile for the Harford Busway.

The Orange Line BRT is probably more typical at $330 million/13.7 miles = $24 million per mile.

Some BRT lines are a lot cheaper. The SBX line in San Bernardino is being built for $191.7 million/15.7 miles = $12 million per mile.

The cheapest recent double-track LRT line that I am aware of is Norfolk's, which cost $318 million/7.4 miles = $43 million per mile.

The most expensive recent LRT line is ... what are the latest numbers for the University extension in Seattle? The starter segment in Seattle cost $2.44 billion/13.9 miles = $176 million per mile.
MBTA's Silver Line Phase 2 at $618M or $206M per mile (For a leaky, bumpy tunnel, rode it a few times).


Either way, it doesn't really matter. Like I said before every project is unique, and comparing project costs doesn't really tell the whole story behind the project. LRT has it's place, as well as BRT.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 03:18 AM   #30
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Silver Line either. I used to live in Boston, so I'm familiar with the other MBTA lines, but I moved away before the Silver Line was built. I've stared at the route maps and can't understand what the Silver Line planners were thinking. The Silver Line routes don't connect well to each other and don't connect well to the other MBTA lines. That being said, I've seen statements on the web that the ridership for the Silver Line is actually quite high and three segments of the Silver Line actually operate at a profit.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
One thing about just posting numbers comparing the modes, is that you don't get a sense of what was built for that amount.

For example, the Transitway was built along an existing rail corridor. How much was spent of property aquisition, utilty relocation, etc.

The Gold Line have section that in are in tunnel, elevated, and that is going to add significantly to the costs of any project.

Construction costs can vary widely between any project. For example the Hartford busway is going to cost a whopping 572 Million for a 9.4 mile busway in an abandoned rail ROW.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/CT_...te_profile.pdf

I find a lot of anti-rail folks like to use this strategy to justify building their desired mode, or pushing for grade-seperated project when an at grade project will do.

I, for one see the benefits of BRT, LRT, Subways, trolleybuses, and streetcars (Though modern streetcars design needs to be looked at), and I find it's necessary to push back against people who are biased toward one mode over another.

Posting stats is fine, if you want to fool ignorant people, not so much on a board like SCC.
Who said anything about being "anti-rail"? You use the technology that will be most cost effective for the route/system. In Detroit's case that is definitely BRT where a Cleveland Healthline BRT along Woodward would offer similar service and capacity but at a far lower capital cost.

Detroit is, quite literally, broke. It doesn't have the luxury of spending a lot of money on one line when the rest of the system is falling apart and is costing a fortune to run because the fleet is so old and they don't have the money to fix them or buy new equipment.

By using this money for Woodward streetcar and instead use a BRT and then use the remaining saved funds for replacing the current fleet, the system would be far more reliable and cost effective. By being able to get new buses it would dramatically reduce maintenance costs and vastly improve the reliability of the system.

How is Woodward going to get decent ridership if you can't get a reliable bus to actually get you there? When funds are as scares as they are in Detroit you have to make sure that you get the most bang for the dollar spent and make sure that you create an effective reliable SYSTEM as opposed to a pretty single route.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 01:33 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Who said anything about being "anti-rail"? You use the technology that will be most cost effective for the route/system. In Detroit's case that is definitely BRT where a Cleveland Healthline BRT along Woodward would offer similar service and capacity but at a far lower capital cost.

Detroit is, quite literally, broke. It doesn't have the luxury of spending a lot of money on one line when the rest of the system is falling apart and is costing a fortune to run because the fleet is so old and they don't have the money to fix them or buy new equipment.
The M-1 project is being largely funded with private and philanthropic funds. The federal government is chipping in $25 Million for the project. Why are you complaining about the project that city isn't paying a dime for? It's a win-win for Detroit, and the line is expected to bring in $500 million worth of development. I expect it will bring in more, because it's being built as a proper 2 track line, and not a inefficient loop, like many modern streetcars. It'll also time into SMART, the regional bus system, and the people mover.

If the line was being paid for by Detroit, I would agree with you that the money would be better spent on improving service. But the city is not. Also, last time I checked, Detroit's oldest bus is around 11 years old. US agencies rarely run buses older than 13 years old.

You have a habit of blaming rail for problems that you made up, and assume.

Quote:
By using this money for Woodward streetcar and instead use a BRT and then use the remaining saved funds for replacing the current fleet, the system would be far more reliable and cost effective. By being able to get new buses it would dramatically reduce maintenance costs and vastly improve the reliability of the system.
As I said before, the line isn't being funded by the city. Also, Detroit is under an emergency manager, and you know how much Republicans hate the government. If anything, Detroit's awful service is because of political cynicism.
Detroit's oldest bus is 12 years old, and they ordered 46 new Gilligs last year. It's rare for US agencies to keep buses older than 13 year.

Quote:
How is Woodward going to get decent ridership if you can't get a reliable bus to actually get you there? When funds are as scares as they are in Detroit you have to make sure that you get the most bang for the dollar spent and make sure that you create an effective reliable SYSTEM as opposed to a pretty single route.
Again, see above. You're just ranting for the sake of ranting.

You guys are anti-rail because of the constant comparison between LRT and BRT, making up lies to justify your opinion of BRT. Perfect example. your rant against a privately funded line.
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Last edited by JustinB; September 28th, 2013 at 01:43 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 04:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
...

Again, see above. You're just ranting for the sake of ranting.

You guys are anti-rail because of the constant comparison between LRT and BRT, making up lies to justify your opinion of BRT. Perfect example. your rant against a privately funded line.
This is baloney! This is basically a light rail version of McCarthyism.

A statement was made on the first page of this thread "... LRT tend to have lower cost per pass*km than buses ...". It should be possible to have a rational discussion of that statement without resorting to accusations "You guys are anti-rail ...".
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Old September 28th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #34
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Hey yous guys - hows about telling the rest of the world about Detroit's transport system eh?

I'm curious to know what was planned and what happened. was it all cut short by the roads lobby as we call it over here? What's planned for the future, if there is one for Motown?

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Old September 28th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #35
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The transportation authority wants to build a Bus Rapid Transit network. A private group wants to build a short streetcar line. The following are some recent articles.

=========================================================

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO08/309090018

September 9, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Metro Detroit tax touted to fuel rapid bus system
Backers advocate speedier transit as route to growth


wo RTA HealthLine busses heading in opposite directions pause at a bus stop near Playhouse Square in Cleveland. Cleveland started its bus rapid transit line in 2008. (Joshua Gunter / The Plain Dealer)

Bus rapid transit is on the road to becoming a reality in Metro Detroit, according to regional transit officials, who say a voter-approved tax will be needed to fund it.

The creation last year of the Regional Transit Authority and the hiring of its first CEO have prompted transportation officials to start planning possible rapid bus corridors — the first one receiving extensive study runs up Woodward from Detroit to Pontiac — and how to quickly win federal matching dollars.

A rapid bus system involves longer buses that travel in exclusive lanes where stoplights are synchronized to change as the buses approach. Riders pay fares ahead of time; the buses travel at about 35 miles per hour and have fewer stops to reduce travel time for commuters. It’s a cheaper alternative to light rail.

Such a bus system and the transit authority’s operations would be financed by either a millage request — the size of which has not been decided — or a per-vehicle fee. A millage would not, transit officials say, interfere with the millage that funds SMART, the area’s suburban bus system. SMART’s millage comes up for renewal next August.

“I think the key issue is: How long will it take to get the local millage passed?” said Carmine Palombo, a top transportation planning official with the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments. “I believe that if you get a local millage passed next year, I think probably two or three years after that we could probably have (bus rapid transit) on at least some portion of the system.”

Palombo’s projection may be optimistic. In Ohio, Cleveland took nearly a decade before starting its bus rapid transit system in 2008, a $200 million, 6.8-mile route that runs from downtown to East Cleveland, said Joe Calabrese, general manager and CEO of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority. The project had to navigate federal rules regarding environmental, traffic and engineering issues.

A Detroit-area millage transit request likely will face an uphill battle. Transportation officials are just beginning to introduce mass transit in a region where residents prefer driving automobiles, and property tax increase requests for SMART occasionally have been defeated during the past two and a half decades.

Transit officials said they are eager to catch up with Midwestern cities such as St. Louis and Cleveland, where increased mass transit has helped with revitalization, arguing a bus rapid transit system would attract millions of dollars of investment in Metro Detroit.

“Bus rapid transit goes as fast as light rail. Bus rapid transit carries as many people as light rail and it operates at a cost ratio one-eighth to building and operating light rail,” said John C. Hertel, the new CEO of the RTA. “Once you get the tax passed, things can move pretty fast.”

But Hertel admits transit officials need to educate voters about the benefits of bus rapid transit.

Although bus rapid transit may be a better alternative to rail, it is not a panacea to turning around struggling regions, said Jarrett Skorup, a research associate at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a free-market-oriented think tank in Midland.

“Transit programs don’t build cities,” Skorup said. “For a city like Detroit and an area that’s really struggling a lot, I would say that moving toward another tax increase for a heavily taxed area should not be a top priority for the region.”

Rapid transit vs. light rail

Bus rapid transit systems, which first became popular during the 1970s in places such as Brazil with large metropolitan cities, have supplanted light rail in many American cities. At one point, Detroit also considered light rail.

If Metro Detroit adopts bus rapid transit, it will be the second in the state after Grand Rapids, which has broken ground on a system it hopes to have up and running next year. It took nearly a decade for backers to negotiate federal funding and get a millage passed after initially being turned down by voters.

Discussions have been underway for months about creating a dedicated rapid bus lane on Woodward. Officials also have talked about having the buses veer off Woodward and use other streets where traffic becomes a problem. Transportation officials say bus rapid transit can co-exist with the M1 rail project that will feature streetcars on Woodward from downtown to the New Center area in Detroit.

In addition to Woodward, the state Legislature named four bus rapid transit corridors in the legislation creating the RTA. They include a route from Detroit to Macomb County, one from Troy to Mount Clemens and another from Detroit to Ann Arbor. Building those routes is estimated to cost nearly $500 million, with $101 million for Woodward.

Hertel said he’d like to see work on all four routes start at nearly the same time but SEMCOG’s Palombo said the question will be, “Will we have the money to do all four?”

Transit timetable at issue

Michigan officials and experts differ on how long the process will take. Cleveland’s Calabrese said it’s important to start with a corridor that “will be most successful because that success will just make the other portions of the project even more successful.”

“We were the first real BRT system in the country, and I think a lot can be learned from our system to help the design and implementation of the Detroit system,” Calabrese said.

Leo E. Hanafin, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Detroit Mercy who has led a team studying mass transit in southeast Michigan, warned that much work is involved in starting a rapid transit system and Metro Detroiters shouldn’t be surprised if it takes time.

“Taking eight to 10 years to build out a system like this is not a snail’s pace for transit systems,” Hanafin said.

The benefits of a rapid bus system will be significant, he said. “The more you allocate to dedicated lanes and to the amenities of the stops or stations, the more you’re going to stimulate economic development at those stations and along those routes,” he said.

Public approval not easy

Dennis Schornack, Detroit RTA’s de facto chief of staff who is on loan from Gov. Rick Snyder’s administration, said he doesn’t think it will take as long as it has in other cities to convince the Federal Transit Authority to help fund a rapid bus system in the region.

“The region has been offered millions in the past for mass transit but that all went to the wayside because there was no entity to drive the projects through,” Schornack said. “Now we have an entity in a position to drive the projects through. ... The FTA is well aware of the paucity of transit in southeast Michigan.”

But convincing the public to back a tax hike will be a challenge, Schornack said. “I think the RTA’s going to have to show some coordination success prior to going to the public for resources to pay for BRT.”

[email protected]
(313) 222-2620

=========================================================

http://www.freep.com/article/2013042...troit-Woodward


This is a rendering of the project, which puts streetcars along Wood ward. The line is expected to be up and running by late 2015. / M1 Rail

The federal government gave its final environmental clearance Monday for the M1 Rail line to begin its work to build a 3.3-mile streetcar line on Woodward between downtown Detroit and the New Center area, a move that the rail line’s leader called a significant step forward.


The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) completed its environmental review, allowing the project to proceed to its next phases: design, purchase of right-of-way along Woodward and then construction. M1 Rail officials said the decision marks the federal government’s seal of approval for the $140-million plan to build the rail line from Congress to just north of Grand Boulevard, with stops along the route.



“It’s a big step,” M1 Rail President and CEO Matt Cullen told the Free Press. “We’ve been expecting it for a long time, but actually getting it done is an important emotional step. We’re excited about it.”

Cullen said construction south of Adams could start in late summer or early fall and move north of Adams in 2014, in conjunction with the Michigan Department of Transportation’s reconstruction next year of 2.5 miles of Woodward between Sibley and Chandler. M1 expects that the rail line will be up and running by late 2015.

“It really is the official blessing, that the project is on track and all the steps are in place,” Cullen said of the FTA’s approval. “We’re going to do all we can to move it as expeditiously as possible.”

Organizers of the largely private-sector project also said they added eight members to the board of directors of the nonprofit M1 Rail and announced the hiring of Jeni Norman, a senior manager with the audit and assurance department of the Rehmann Group, as the agency’s chief financial officer.

Earlier this month, the group said it had hired Heather Carmona, previously the executive director of the Woodward Avenue Action Association, as chief administrative officer, and Sommer Woods, an events and marketing consultant who has worked with the City of Detroit, the Downtown Detroit Partnership and other groups, as director of governmental and community affairs.

“We are very encouraged that so many people from our community are eager to be a part of making the Woodward Avenue Streetcar a success,” Cullen said, “and it brings me great pleasure to welcome eight of them to our board of directors. With their knowledge and leadership at the table, the opportunity for better transit for Detroit and our region in the future is greater.”

The new board members are Dave Blaszkiewicz, president and CEO of the Downtown Detroit Partnership; Darrell Burks, a retired senior partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers and a member of the city-state Financial Advisory Board; Jared Fleisher, a lawyer with Patton Boggs; Sarah McClelland, Michigan market president for JPMorgan Chase; Mike McLauchlan, vice president of government relations for Ilitch Holdings; Sue Mosey, president of Midtown Detroit Inc.; Faye Nelson, president and CEO of the Detroit Riverfront Conservancy, and Robert Riney, president and chief operating officer of the Henry Ford Health System.

Blaszkiewicz was recently elected the board’s secretary and Burks its treasurer.

The environmental clearance wasn’t a surprise. The Obama administration has signaled its approval of the project, which had hinged on the creation of a Regional Transit Authority for southeast Michigan, created last year in an act by the Legislature.

The authority ultimately will have control over federal funding for the Detroit Department of Transportation and suburban SMART bus systems and will ask voters in Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Washtenaw counties as early as November 2014 for a new tax to help build a regional bus rapid-transit network.

The FTA granted the M1 Rail project $25 million earlier this year, but the remainder of the funding has been pledged by civic and philanthropic groups, including $35 million from the Kresge Foundation and $9 million from the Downtown Development Authority.

Smaller pledges have come from the Detroit three automakers, Wayne State University, the Detroit Medical Center, Henry Ford Health System and others, with backing from Roger Penske of Penske Corp.; Quicken Loans’ Dan Gilbert; the Ilitch organization, and Compuware founder Peter Karmanos.

The FTA’s record of decision on the project, reflecting final environmental approval, is available at www.mi.gov/woodwardstreetcar.

Contact Matt Helms: [email protected] or 313-222-1450. Follow him on Twitter: @matthelms.

=========================================================
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Old December 6th, 2013, 03:52 AM   #36
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To reprise:

It's Really Happening: M-1 Rail Officially Granted $25M, Construction Should Begin This Year

Quote:
Friday, January 18, 2013, by Paul Beshouri

Pop the champagne—it's finally official: The M-1 Rail project will be the recipient of a $25 millon TIGER grant, putting the 3.3 mile streetcar line financially within reach. We were told earlier this month that M-1 would likely get the cash, but this is mass transit, and this is Detroit, so we won't really trust any of it until we're actually liveblogging from the train itself (which isn't a joke...M-1 plans for onboard Wi-Fi). Regardless, workers should break ground later this year, meaning you'll be getting our first onboard liveblog in late 2015, when officials hope to have the system up and running. We've found you another route map to salivate over, but this one has something extra: Our humble and loyal People Mover, patiently looping downtown for 26 years, will finally be made relevant.


And today:

Late at Night, Workers Begin Installing M1 Rail's Utility Systems



Quote:
Behold! The first tangible evidence that the M1 Rail project is real. These construction workers, spotted late last night at the intersection of Woodward and Congress, aren't laying track or installing station platforms. They were, however, working on the streetcar's heavy-duty utility systems, which need to be installed prior to laying track. This intersection will be the location of M1's southernmost stop.
It's not the official, champagne-soaked groundbreaking we were promised would take place over the summer. It now looks like that party won't happen 'til spring, so we're savoring this photo.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #37
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Well if they are moving forward now then go for it.

I understand that Detroit has come out with a bold plan to rid the city of it's staggering 78,000 decrepit buildings within 3 years and I hope they can pull it off. I also hope that they have the vision to set aside a whole series of corridors branching out from the core and crosstown to be used latter as an effective BRT lines with it's own busways and complete priority lighting such as Ottawa's Transitway , Pittsburgh's Martin Luther King Busway, or L.A.'s Orange Line.
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Old December 14th, 2013, 02:40 PM   #38
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Now, one of the reasons to opt for trams/streetcars is that they also have additional values. In general they add to property values in a way that BRTs or buses don't. So it's not only about transporting people from point A to B but to change the whole streetscape to make it more attractive for investment.
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Old December 14th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #39
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That would be too easy. This opinion came from the fact, that new tram lines are built together with all the street infrastructure - just to put trams on the road dosnt add any value.
If you change the whole streetscape for BRT it will make the area more attractive for investment, too. It's not the trams themselves. It's the investments in the infrastructure.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 09:25 AM   #40
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New Detroit transport map on urbanrail.net:

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