daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Skyscrapers

Skyscrapers General news, discussion and announcement forum about skyscrapers, including the Skyscraper Living forum



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 17th, 2013, 11:10 PM   #41
Fallout
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
 
Fallout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: set of all sets that are not their own subsets
Posts: 1,968
Likes (Received): 1338

Many people in Poland (but still a minority), like Arcytekton, see the Palace as symbol of Russian domination imposed on Polish city. Just like that big orthodox cathedral Russian built on Saxon square few years before World War I, and which was demolished by Poles after they gained independence:



there are however few facts that Palace opponents don't take into account:

- Stalin gave Polish leader Bierut an offer: the Soviet would either built subway in Warsaw, or a skyscraper. Bierut made the choice. Sure, you can still say he was communist, but nevertheless, construction of Palace was polish decision

- while the Palace was designed by Russians, the attempted to make it "polish". While skyscrapers in Moscow had elements imitating traditional Russian architecture, Palace's architecture imitates reneissance building from cities like Krakow or Zamosc.

- The original design by Russians was intended to be 120m high. It was the polish architects participating in the project who insisted on making it taller.

- Replacement of wholly or partially destroyed historical architecture to replace it with modern buildings took place not only in Soviet dominated Poland, but also free countries like Caen in France:



or Coventry in UK:



The results were often as disputable as in case of Warsaw. We can't even exclude the possibility, that even if Poland remained independent, Poles themselves wouldn't take occasion to remake the city, perhaps even with similar idea of central skyscraper. As you can see in this article prewar polish authorities liked monumental architecture as well.

Having said all that, I must admit I think understand Arcytekton's feelings and somewhat share it. I also don't like that centre of Warsaw, is marked with building built and, more importantly, identified with Soviet Union. Note that often foreigners don't call the Palace by its proper name, but use monikers such like " stalinist" or "soviet skyscraper". That Warsaw's primary landmark is such, seems to enforce foreign perception of Poland as "Russian neighbourhood", a ountry . And this would be for me

Still, I think such perception may change. Perhaps it's not becuse Palace, that influences perception of Poland, but the other way. Poland being perceived through its recent history, makes observers underline Palace's soviet character. After all, like I said, its not impossible that Poles themselves could build similar thing, and the Place was influenced by Polish architecture not Russian, and the Russians themselves built their skyscrapers trying to imitate american ones. So, the Palace is similar to Moscow towers, but also this one in New York:



or one in Madrid:



Having said all that, I think that wile th palace doesn't deserve destruction, it also isn't, for the aforementioned reasons, quite the ideal candidate to play such great role in Warsaw's landscape as it has now. It should be somehow moved a bit to a lower position, as part of the city, but not such dominant one.

How to do it? Well, the whole idea of "surrounding" or "covering" it is IMHO, completely crazy. Putting giant towers around the Palace, composed either in square or, even worse, a circle, and moreover, architecturally completely different that it, will only accentuate its central position. As for covering, you simply don't make for one building that you don't like, especially such big one, ten more, only to cover it. If you wan't to remove a 200m building from city's skyline, there is only one way: demolition. So if you really don't like the sight of Palace, just say you wan't to demolish it. It will be cheaper and more honest (and will actually work).

If one however think that Palace can be accepted and integrated in Warsaw's urbanity, I think we ought to dispose it of its two features: dominance and centrality. Let this product of old, and not entirely good times stay, but lets also show that new times are better, by overshadowing the Palace with new, better landmarks of Warsaw.

How exactly should those be? Well, IMO, the minimum plan would include art least one skyscraper taller than Palace. This is necessary to replace it as a dominant point of Warsaw's skyline. Such building built next to Palace could also deprive it partially of its second feature: centrality. Now not the Palace would mark the centre of Warsaw, but the area between it, and its new neighbor. Even better would be to make several, three or maybe four, towers of Palace's scale next to it, with at least one taller, and all of them arranged such that Palace would nit occupy central position in this new centre. Perhaps it would be at one corner of giant square or triangle formed by them. As I said, at least one should be taller than the Palace, which isn't really such high requirement. The other 1-2 may be slightly lower, in 160 - 230m range. More important is that those new "Palaces", should have exceptional architecture, at least the quality of Palace itself. The will be a new symbol of Warsaw after all. Personally, I would wish there building with composition, similar to the Palace, square or circular symmetry, spires and lots of details. Now, this design fits me pretty well:



Overall, it's a project of scale comparable to the towers in Madrid:



But it will be way more important for Warsaw. It will not be just one addition to the city, but will redefine the whole image of it. The communist symbolism of the Place will be completely neutralized this way, which is what in my opinion justifies leaving it standing. So this one was build by Russians? But then those three were built by Poles. Poland-Russia 3-1. And the Polish one is bigger
__________________

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
― Hermann Göring

The monster never dies, no matter how many times you kill it. It just sheds its skin and changes form.
― William J. Blazkowicz

natansalda, Arcytekton, Fredas19 liked this post
Fallout no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 18th, 2013, 03:57 PM   #42
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

@Fallout

Many thanx for opinion.

Quote:
- Stalin gave Polish leader Bierut an offer: the Soviet would either built subway in Warsaw, or a skyscraper. Bierut made the choice. Sure, you can still say he was communist, but nevertheless, construction of Palace was polish decision
You are right .The same with Solensk President Kaczynski with delegation flight 101 tragedy.Our government made the political decision not to lead international judgment about that 4/10 case .So,today it's our fault for russian hiding the truth about that and our investigators can do nothing themselves .

Nations are divided what means VOICEs OF GOVERNMENTS ARE NOT ALWAYS VOICES OF NATIONS SOULS. In other words politics is one and the truth is the second side sometimes. That's what is actual in Polish situation now.

Quote:
It was the polish architects participating in the project who insisted on making it taller.
That had been a shame .Right
This is this russian type of thinking for example:







This is MOSCOW not WARSAW but looks familiar to Warsaw landscape


Well...well...


This is BERLIN but looks familiar to MOSCOW

...and to that (PKiN)

__________________

Last edited by Arcytekton; January 21st, 2014 at 11:24 PM. Reason: letter mist.
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #43
natansalda
Natalja
 
natansalda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bydgoszcz/Poland
Posts: 953
Likes (Received): 311

I just want to assure all you guys that not everyone thinks like Arcytekton. Most of the polish people doesn't. Even in a discussion about architecture it's easy to say that you have very conservative political views, and it's okay, but please don't say things like: "Polish people think" or "this is how situation in Poland is". This is just YOUR view and your opinion.
__________________

victorek liked this post
natansalda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2013, 09:29 PM   #44
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

.........fine .
You recognise my point of view well

Therefore...from Your point of view : How majority of Polish people think or what the situation in Poland is in the context of the topic we talk about ...please?
__________________

ATarnowski liked this post

Last edited by Arcytekton; September 18th, 2013 at 11:56 PM.
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 03:23 AM   #45
Ulpia-Serdica
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,325
Likes (Received): 7646

Will we realistically see any of the proposed towers built anytime soon?
Ulpia-Serdica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 09:17 AM   #46
natansalda
Natalja
 
natansalda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bydgoszcz/Poland
Posts: 953
Likes (Received): 311

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcytekton View Post
.........fine .
You recognise my point of view well

Therefore...from Your point of view : How majority of Polish people think or what the situation in Poland is in the context of the topic we talk about ...please?
It's not a place do discuss politics, and you would probably disagree with anything I say anyway I just ask you to write here what YOU think, how YOUR opinion is - not to judge what all other people think and want.
__________________

seba65536 liked this post
natansalda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 08:15 PM   #47
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

@natansalda

Quote:
It's not a place do discuss politics, and you would probably disagree with anything I say anyway I just ask you to write here what YOU think, how YOUR opinion is - not to judge what all other people think and want
Politics is everywere and precisely in architecture.Large block-housing estates built around the world because that was the social policy. Great skyscrapers in the United States because there was exposed capitalism. Built in Africa and third World- straw hats ,cotages made of clay with hands because politics in those poor countries that dicided ... You write me not write about politics?
This is what I think, and what MY opinion is. Let me say this.Do not tell me I souldn't judge.
Will You realistically anser the question to Ulpia-Serdica :

Quote:
Will we realistically see any of the proposed towers built anytime soon?
What is the reason that for so many years, no one puts or sticks the blade or spade into the ground in the very center of the area around the Palace of Culture?
It is the policy -politic. Politic of the city. Policy of the country ..and middle country relation politics etc..

How do you stay off this policy, please write about something that is next to it but do not say there is nothing to talk about politic cause it's useless or not the place to .It's naive. Even ants have a policy of survival in that they work together in a commune or collective it's their policy.

Write not political opinion if You find it confortable (will be hard,tell You) about why half of age nobody can realistically see any of the proposed towers or any building next to The Famous Palace please.

I now why?
But sorry it is unfortunately again POLITIC.
__________________

Skyscraperuser222, ATarnowski liked this post

Last edited by Arcytekton; September 21st, 2013 at 09:28 PM.
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 10:09 PM   #48
natansalda
Natalja
 
natansalda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bydgoszcz/Poland
Posts: 953
Likes (Received): 311

Okay, I agree with you that politics is everywhere at some level. "Politics" is a very broad concept. What I meant is "political games". And excuse me but this is what I started to think about when you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcytekton View Post
So,today it's our fault for russian hiding the truth about that
And I can't really tell what is a direct connection of that plane crash with Palace of Culture. That's all. You seem to be an intelligent and cultural person, I do not intend to enter into any big discussion. I have neither the time nor the necessary knowledge about architecture. The only thing I wanted to underline is that not everyone has teh same opinion as you so please don't write as if you are speaking on behalf of all polish people. Thank you, good night
__________________

Arcytekton liked this post
natansalda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #49
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

How dare I speak on behalf of all the people? This is misunderstanding. And by 'we' I mean, of course, the conversation among those in the field of group of planners & architects or thouse people who agree with me.Not majority.I'm not any politician.God forbid!
But I have to explain You very important aspect of this quote You added above. The question on Smolensk tragedy 4/10:

Quote:
So,today it's our fault for russian hiding the truth about that
Parallel is simple:
Because today it's our fault for russian interference in that what we had built on our square in our center of our capital city.That was our permission.Wright?
Fallout very good wrote about that situation some posts above.Hiding the truth about bad our history is something what we shouldn't talk about either?Keep silence?

No.
We shouldn't had let them indicate us to built that creature in the midle of the city.We got no arguments now to complain much about it's architecture or stupid large destroying our urbanism frogeeplan of it or its tremendous scale.
Any way,I want to emphatically state that not all Poles expressed their consent or agreement for this investment. However, the communist regime or pression was crucial and not many people could be effective opposition. They were underground.
What else about Smolensk?
Pressure on judgement on Smolensk tragedy is today similar to the topic and the situation abaut decisions to build The Palace in fifties years. Not to talk to much only trust & subordination for governament's decisions .There is the same situation,can't You see? Governament deciding on behalf of Poles .Some part of nation trust them.The rest never seen the evidences in the case.They are kept in Russia so far. That's the truth.The same division of people what in circa time 1950 mean after II WorldWar before building the Palace which was Stalin's sign-"gift", called his name by the way

May be now You understand that I also agree with You in this matter point of view depends on the point of being so is not a point of everyone. Surely You are right!
Polish leader Bierut had decided on behalf of his communist party but not on behalf of Poles whose part had had death from the cold in Siberia because there were sent by the regime.That's why we are today devided. You are right!Not all think the same.

It's good to see some historical or even political background talking about the biggest buildings in the biggest city in the country.

But it's all over the world the same problem not only ours mean polish.


Have good night too...
__________________

Skyscraperuser222 liked this post

Last edited by Arcytekton; September 23rd, 2013 at 01:30 PM. Reason: spelling
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #50
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

That's one of the new concepts of Warsaw City Core.

__________________

Last edited by Arcytekton; September 2nd, 2014 at 11:53 PM.
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2013, 04:20 PM   #51
Iluminat
Redsigert User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,459
Likes (Received): 4540

very ugly.
__________________

swierq85 liked this post
Iluminat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2013, 12:54 AM   #52
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

Oh,don't like it ,pity

Last edited by Arcytekton; October 10th, 2013 at 10:52 AM.
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2013, 03:11 AM   #53
seba65536
Registered User
 
seba65536's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 873
Likes (Received): 3231

Not bad project, but already not possible (other buildings were built in the meantime). I like that round tower. Looks steampunk to me

Fix the spelling error in "ubespieczeń" BTW.
seba65536 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #54
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

Other buildings were built in the meantime but not in the nearest surrounding of the Palace PKiN so the core(clue) is actual.

Thanx for watching errors
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2014, 12:27 PM   #55
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

I put a new note in Salon24.pl at this topic. Invite You to discuss there or here ofcourse too





The concept developed recently due to other circumstances which arose during this period more than 20 years.There were built in the center of the west a few high-rise important buildings. Surrounding the Palace of Culture is now created by the average development. Brunt building and its importance are moved from the square Defilad to ul.E Plater street where Libeskind tower lastly occurred.

http://maciejowskirobert.salon24.pl/...ntrum-warszawy


Development of urban design CENTRE




New visualisations:
http://maciejowskirobert.salon24.pl/...ry-w-warszawie





PLAN:



http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...3&postcount=79






__________________

Last edited by Arcytekton; June 11th, 2014 at 02:19 PM. Reason: letter errors
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2014, 12:12 AM   #56
SOMFAN
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3
Likes (Received): 2


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcytekton View Post


That koncept with round place seems to be interesting.What about that building in front of the Palace of Culture? Do you have any closer views of it?
__________________

ATarnowski, Jan Kowalski 44 liked this post
SOMFAN no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2014, 12:23 PM   #57
Arcytekton
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Warsaw Poland
Posts: 155
Likes (Received): 202

This building "Eagle VICTORY" is shaped like wings and is a form of an eagle with open wings .Metafora Polish emblem That is a the National symbol. Now I got no detail drawings of it unfortunately but the concept is still being developed.
I find it very good at that agora circle shaped in the middle of the City. That group of buildings is characteristic for the range of the place/Warsaw/Poland.
__________________

Skyscraperuser222 liked this post
Arcytekton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #58
Skyscraperuser222
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 6

Why Arcytecton you are banned?
I can not understand?
User SOMFAN? For 3 normal posts is banned?
Ridiculous that I can not read some more about your designs here on legal threads .
__________________

BobiRobi, ATarnowski, Jan Kowalski 44 liked this post
Skyscraperuser222 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2014, 11:40 PM   #59
ThatOneGuy
Psst! Check my signature!
 
ThatOneGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto - Bucharest - Freeport
Posts: 21,482

The only think this building needs is a restoration back to the way it looked in the 50s, i.e. cleaning its facade back to white and removing mechanical junk from its roof.

It is a good looking building, and doesn't deserve to be hidden. People just need to stop with this paranoid delusion of "soviet symbolism" in the building, or whatnot.
It's not there. The building is simply a mass of steel, concrete and stone. That's it.

There is a building in Bucharest called 'House of the Free Press' that is built in a Stalinist architecture style. When I was young I always thought it was a great building, but that the commercial ads covering it and the radio equipment on the roof were hideous. I didn't have any clue who built the building, or about its association with communism.

I only learned from anti-communist propaganda that said the building was a symbol of sovietism and that people saw it as a mark of the communist regime. Before then, I just thought it was a good-looking historic building. All this talk of symbolism is just rhetoric that keeps a sad mistreated building on the skyline instead of returnign it to its original beautiful condition.
ThatOneGuy está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #60
Skyscraperuser222
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post

It is a good looking building, and doesn't deserve to be hidden. People just need to stop with this paranoid delusion of "soviet symbolism"
You mean Arcytecton was a kind of Copperfield. He has hidden that palace ?I can see only many surrounding it ideas to make it work together,to join it in one organizm. Every big center in the world are groups of high buildings standing in the group. You suggest they are hidden somehow? New York city or Singapur are centers with hidden buildings? No they are different each other but they work together as big concentration of many skyscrapers.That's why all buildings are each separately interesting they work as interesting down city center.Second thing. Why you think that building is treated like paranoid delusion of "soviet symbolism"? Every building has its soul and historical connotation .This one has one too. Many Poles don't like this building not so much exposed and from other side they do not want to demolish it totaly. One choice is to cover it a little and its not bad solution for everybody.So Arcytectons ideas are showing just it. That's it.
__________________

BobiRobi, ATarnowski, Jan Kowalski 44 liked this post

Last edited by Skyscraperuser222; September 16th, 2014 at 03:18 PM.
Skyscraperuser222 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
poland, skyscraper, warsaw, warsaw skyline

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu