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Old September 30th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #121
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I like Dubai (judged from pictures), it has much tall towers, the city itself is designed pretty futuristic and many buildings are great (Rose Tower, Burj Al Arab, Burj Khalifa, Emirates Towers). I don't know why people everytime say that all of Dubai's buildings are ugly and tracky while there are this masterpieces. Also it is pretty dense from my point of view(Dubai Marina). In this Forum Dubai is underrated because it seems nearly everybody hates it. The only bad thing about Dubai is the temperature.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 06:39 AM   #122
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Should I delete thread?
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:44 PM   #123
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No it is interesting in my opinion.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:59 PM   #124
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I am sorry but I think London and LA are both overrated. sorry.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 06:56 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Do you think people include proposals and construction in their ratings?
Yes I would say they tend to if they know follow what is going on in the city though the SCC skyscraper projects boards... with the casual post about the boom in the poll's thread. In North American news I do think Toronto is a bit overexposed in the skyscraper boom. Though, not as much as pre-bust Miami.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I suppose there's some of that going on, but I suspect most people use photographs supplemented with data to arrive at their decisions.
Exhibit A:

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Originally Posted by neilio View Post
For example, If I were to say ``If every proposal in Chicago and Toronto were built within the next 5 years, Toronto would have a higher average height than Chicago and MORE towers over 200m`` I would be stating A FACT, but the uneducated masses will simply spew crap about how Toronto could NEVER catch Chicago and turn it into a big city vs city pissing contest, rather than just... researching and confirming those statistics and facts... And if they lose the argument their they would graduate onto the next argument ``Well most of them probably wont be built yadayadayada``, even though we`ve calculated that roughly 80% of all Toronto proposals are constructed (which is a VERY high success rate).
Not saying he is wrong but people know this stuff and they will factor it in. Also note that Toronto's proposals takes forever to finish. Yes 80% will finish but most will be altered and the bigger question is when will they finish.

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Btw, what did you mean by 'inverse tip of the iceberg'?
the opposite of the saying "tip of the iceberg" more and more people seem to focus more an either the huge amount of proposals that might not be built as is if at all or the new super proposals such as project core, pinnacle center, oxford redevelopment, Holt Renfrew redevelopment. When what is actually happening is much smaller.

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I agree that it's very Western-Anglo centric, but isn't everything? We're also on an English speaking site.
Exactly, so by default the non-Western-Anglo skylines are most likely not overrated. This English speaking site has more influence on the skyline rating scene than say gaolumi etc.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That said, Asian skylines are beginning to get the attention they deserve. Tokyo, Singapore, and Hong Kong have long been recognized, but people's horizons are expanding.
Starting is the key word here. I hardly think a skyline that is starting to be recognized of its merit to be overrated.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 08:33 PM   #126
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Should I delete thread?
You can't delete the thread. You can ask to have it deleted if you want, but most people seem to find it interesting enough to keep, so I won't delete it. Closing is preferable to deleting because of opinions already expressed unless a thread is an absolute train wreck.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 11:00 PM   #127
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I'm sorry, but London along with many European cities (PARIS, MADRID, MILAN and many others) don't have an underrated skyline... They have overrated or non existent skylines.

Just because these cities have buildings with history or monuments that made these cities great doesn't mean they have a skyline. I know people will defend London to the teeth especially the British, but I'm sorry, London doesn't have a skyline AT ALL! Chicago , NY, Miami, Toronto, and Hong Kong are cities with a great skyline, and London is not.

Is London or Paris greatness affected because they don't a great skyline? No, because London and Paris will always be amazing and incredible cities, but the skyline is clearly not a representation of how great these two European cities along with many are.

So let's stop pretending and defending a city that clearly doesn't have anything to really show for.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 12:15 AM   #128
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But London and Paris are more historic cities, I mean that's exactly the reason why their skylines are less impressive than the other cities you mention. Because of history.

In practical terms it wouldn't be possible to have skylines like Chicago, N.Y. or Hong Kong in those cities. Not without disrespecting, disregarding and tearing down quite a lot of history.

I'll put it in another way; in a way your judgment of London and Paris as overrated skylines is a tad childish or immature. Same way a kid would probably prefer a pastel colored photo of Nicki Minaj or Hannah Montana or something, to a slightly dark black and white photo of some urban decay place. But a photo artist or pro photographer probably wouldn't.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 12:21 AM   #129
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And they most certainly do have skylines. If they are not to someones individual taste and someone thinks they are overrated because of what someone thinks a skyline should be composed of, then fine. That's all you have to say.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 12:30 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarcelona View Post
I'm sorry, but London along with many European cities (PARIS, MADRID, MILAN and many others) don't have an underrated skyline... They have overrated or non existent skylines.

Just because these cities have buildings with history or monuments that made these cities great doesn't mean they have a skyline. I know people will defend London to the teeth especially the British, but I'm sorry, London doesn't have a skyline AT ALL! Chicago , NY, Miami, Toronto, and Hong Kong are cities with a great skyline, and London is not.

Is London or Paris greatness affected because they don't a great skyline? No, because London and Paris will always be amazing and incredible cities, but the skyline is clearly not a representation of how great these two European cities along with many are.

So let's stop pretending and defending a city that clearly doesn't have anything to really show for.
You are VERY ignorant and narrow minded if you believe what you wrote.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 01:08 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexter26 View Post
But London and Paris are more historic cities, I mean that's exactly the reason why their skylines are less impressive than the other cities you mention. Because of history.

In practical terms it wouldn't be possible to have skylines like Chicago, N.Y. or Hong Kong in those cities. Not without disrespecting, disregarding and tearing down quite a lot of history.
o·ver·rate (vr-rt)
tr.v. o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.

I think you misread the posts, but we are not judging London as a city but for its skyline. There are tons of cities in the world that don't have impressive skylines because of X or Y but the fact is they don't have a impressive skyline. Therefore shall be rated accordingly. The question is: What makes London so special? It has a collection of critically acclaimed buildings but is that really enough to be rated that highly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dexter26 View Post
I'll put it in another way; in a way your judgment of London and Paris as overrated skylines is a tad childish or immature. Same way a kid would probably prefer a pastel colored photo of Nicki Minaj or Hannah Montana or something, to a slightly dark black and white photo of some urban decay place. But a photo artist or pro photographer probably wouldn't.
So Toronto and Singapore crowd have tastes akin to are the Nicki Minaj or Hannah Montana skylines and London and Paris crowd have tastes akin Bach or Mozart. Don't you think that's a bit judgmental.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 02:19 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Exhibit A:
Considering there are likely 100+ forum members from Toronto, being able to cite 1 that takes proposals and U/C in reaching a decision isn't evidence that it's what people from Toronto are doing. Even finding 10 that do that isn't much of an argument either.

Besides, 'Neilio' was clearly rebutting claims that Toronto would never catch Chicago in building count. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate that to mean that he's using U/C and Proposals in determining where Toronto currently stacks up.

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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Not saying he is wrong but people know this stuff and they will factor it in.
You really haven't shown any evidence that people are doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Exactly, so by default the non-Western-Anglo skylines are most likely not overrated. This English speaking site has more influence on the skyline rating scene than say gaolumi etc.

Starting is the key word here. I hardly think a skyline that is starting to be recognized of its merit to be overrated.
I've looked through pages of this thread and I don't see too many people arguing that Asian cities are over rated so I don't understand your criticism. If anything, people seem to be in agreement that they are under rated. I've seen Singapore mentioned a couple times, but that's just one skyline.
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Last edited by isaidso; October 2nd, 2013 at 02:40 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 02:53 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I've looked through pages of this thread and I don't see too many people arguing that Asian cities are over rated so I don't understand your criticism. If anything, people seem to be in agreement that they are under rated. I've seen Singapore mentioned a couple times, but that's just one skyline.
right, I guess I was reading too much in the beginning where Shenzhen and Hong Kong was called out.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 03:59 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
:Not saying he is wrong but people know this stuff and they will factor it in. Also note that Toronto's proposals takes forever to finish. Yes 80% will finish but most will be altered and the bigger question is when will they finish.
That's the thing though, they DON'T know this stuff and they most certainly do not factor it in. You put far to much confidence/faith in people lol. If they knew what they were talking about or simply took the time to research the facts before stating their opinion I would not have to be correcting them so often lol.

As for alterations, I'm not sure how that really fits in here because yes they happen, take Trump for example that was a good example of a large height decrease and design change (how disappointing), but most of the time they include a height increase and design changes that hardly affect the over all building for better or worse.

I can see some cities like Dubai taking a building from Proposed to U/C in a very short time, they are trying to increase the size of their urban ***** as fast as they can to impress the world, it seams that cities like Toronto have WAY MORE red tape and considerations in planning such as zoning by-laws and consideration for historic buildings etc.
So I think the time in which it takes most towers in Toronto to get to the construction faze is pretty average over all, there are some exceptions like L Tower, that building took for freakin EVER so much so that many Toronto forumers thought it was dead lol. However if we are using that in the context of Toronto and Chicago and we surmise that Chicago puts up Towers faster than Toronto on average it would still not change anything because Toronto has a higher percentage/success rate of tower proposals hitting the construction faze to begin with.
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Last edited by neilio; October 2nd, 2013 at 04:21 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 04:15 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Karma View Post
You are VERY ignorant and narrow minded if you believe what you wrote.
Seriously there is no need to be that harsh to somebody even if its absolutely the truth. Everyone here needs to understand something, yes people have different opinions and ideas of what a skyline is and in some cases their ideas and opinions are based on ignorant and or narrow minded views. Calling them out on it is one option, simply explaining why you disagree with them is another and may I add a BETTER option.

What we lack in this thread is a definition of what we are talking about exactly and in what context. It is technically wrong to say that London does not have a skyline, hell my current city of 21,000 people HAS A "SKYLINE" as per the dictionary definition lol. SO, context people. I would argue that the context is one where we are debating over rated MODERN skylines. In other words skylines with buildings that were built since the 1920's and later and reach anywhere from 150m to burj khalifa. Judging by most posts here, THAT is the context, the second we start saying "ya but London has gorgeous buildings from 1500AD that have huge cool spires and neat stonework and they look great in the skyline" we are comparing apples with oranges. So unless people reach a consensus on the context in which the topic is being discussed, people will continue the never ending "LONDON IS OVER RATED!", "NUH UH ITS THE BEST EVER!" argument/retardation.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 06:23 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarcelona View Post
I'm sorry, but London along with many European cities (PARIS, MADRID, MILAN and many others) don't have an underrated skyline... They have overrated or non existent skylines.

Just because these cities have buildings with history or monuments that made these cities great doesn't mean they have a skyline. I know people will defend London to the teeth especially the British, but I'm sorry, London doesn't have a skyline AT ALL! Chicago , NY, Miami, Toronto, and Hong Kong are cities with a great skyline, and London is not.

Is London or Paris greatness affected because they don't a great skyline? No, because London and Paris will always be amazing and incredible cities, but the skyline is clearly not a representation of how great these two European cities along with many are.

So let's stop pretending and defending a city that clearly doesn't have anything to really show for.
I'm sorry I've NEVER heard ANYONE mention Paris, Madrid or Milan in their list. They are barely rated.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 11:03 AM   #137
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The problem we have here is the fact that 80% of the people replying to this thread do not know the definition of "Skyline".

Skyline does not mean to Tall. Modern. Skyscrapers. only.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 01:27 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilio View Post
Seriously there is no need to be that harsh to somebody even if its absolutely the truth. Everyone here needs to understand something, yes people have different opinions and ideas of what a skyline is and in some cases their ideas and opinions are based on ignorant and or narrow minded views. Calling them out on it is one option, simply explaining why you disagree with them is another and may I add a BETTER option.

What we lack in this thread is a definition of what we are talking about exactly and in what context. It is technically wrong to say that London does not have a skyline, hell my current city of 21,000 people HAS A "SKYLINE" as per the dictionary definition lol. SO, context people. I would argue that the context is one where we are debating over rated MODERN skylines. In other words skylines with buildings that were built since the 1920's and later and reach anywhere from 150m to burj khalifa. Judging by most posts here, THAT is the context, the second we start saying "ya but London has gorgeous buildings from 1500AD that have huge cool spires and neat stonework and they look great in the skyline" we are comparing apples with oranges. So unless people reach a consensus on the context in which the topic is being discussed, people will continue the never ending "LONDON IS OVER RATED!", "NUH UH ITS THE BEST EVER!" argument/retardation.
Very good post, I agree. The reason why I didn't provide an explanation is because I already posted on the thread explaining a skyline doesn't just mean tall buildings. If he is going to trash talk about other city skylines with such harsh language (I.e this City has no skyline) which is infanct untrue then I have every right to call him ignorant. Who the hell made him the boss of the world to determine what a skyline should consist of??

Last edited by Good Karma; October 2nd, 2013 at 02:39 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 05:58 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birmingham View Post
The problem we have here is the fact that 80% of the people replying to this thread do not know the definition of "Skyline".

Skyline does not mean to Tall. Modern. Skyscrapers. only.
This is Skyscrapercity. I'm surprised that you expect to find many people here who think skylines without skyscrapers should be regarded appealing or impressive. Like 90% of other members here, I too visit this site to see photos and update of various skyscrapers around the globe. If people think that skylines without skyscrapers are boring and ugly, then the bias against those skylines is perfectly justified and reasonable.

However, your views about skylines can't be modified and everybody else's would also remain the same. That's why I suggest the moderator to consider deleting this thread. If you think ancient churches and lowrises building make world class skyline, then so be it. But on skyscrapercity, expect people to favour tall skylines over short ones. The name of the website speaks for itself
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 06:30 PM   #140
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Quote:
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This is Skyscrapercity. I'm surprised that you expect to find many people here who think skylines without skyscrapers should be regarded appealing or impressive. Like 90% of other members here, I too visit this site to see photos and update of various skyscrapers around the globe. If people think that skylines without skyscrapers are boring and ugly, then the bias against those skylines is perfectly justified and reasonable.

However, your views about skylines can't be modified and everybody else's would also remain the same. That's why I suggest the moderator to consider deleting this thread. If you think ancient churches and lowrises building make world class skyline, then so be it. But on skyscrapercity, expect people to favour tall skylines over short ones. The name of the website speaks for itself
This is my sentiment exactly, this is skyscrapercity and the overwhelming majority will define a skyline by its MODERN 1920AD+ buildings over 100m. There is no debating this given the very nature and purpose of the website. Debates like this are fine IMO and can greatly change peoples attitudes and work to educate them even. As long as people are aware of the context in which this is being discussed then there wouldn't be a problem.
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