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Old October 1st, 2013, 09:05 PM   #21
Minato ku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Line 14 was thought as a city center express line from the beginning i guess, so it has to count, right?
Only between Chatelet and Gare de Lyon, the rest of line 14 has average distance between stations for a metro line, longer than the Paris metro average but Paris average is very short, too short in many case.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 09:26 PM   #22
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I also think that according to our current definition, those examples in Paris given by Minato ku should count.

Also that configuration in Amsterdam should count if it's a commuter rail.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 09:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
I'm not entirely convinced of the feasibility of a single definition that's applicable to all systems worldwide
Why not? You create a definition and then see what fits in.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 11:31 PM   #24
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That's the world upside down a little...might be a nice little exercise for making highly idiosyncratic lists though.

According to my definition of local/express metros the Amsterdam situation would not fit in btw, as neither train system was ever meant to serve as a mutual counterpart in an overall local/express configuration. Or, put more simply: you don't take the NS trains to arrive at a station faster than you would by metro in general.

Last edited by Alargule; October 1st, 2013 at 11:39 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 07:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
According to my definition of local/express metros the Amsterdam situation would not fit in btw, as neither train system was ever meant to serve as a mutual counterpart in an overall local/express configuration. Or, put more simply: you don't take the NS trains to arrive at a station faster than you would by metro in general.
For my definition, it's not important if something was 'meant' or not. I just want to see what's there and categorize it. Like a botanical field guide for example.

And nobody ever takes the NS trains to arrive in the city center earlier? I'm not going to believe that.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:18 PM   #26
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How about Barcelona's L1 and Cercanias/Rodalias. they run parallel pretty long together, aalmost though the entire city and especially from Catalunya until Fabra i Puig.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:19 PM   #27
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Well, I don't agree with your definition in the first place
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:38 PM   #28
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Let me elaborate on my definition a little bit more.

I define a 'local/express' configuration in a narrow sense, with the following conditions in place. All criteria have to be met:
  • Designed or set up as a single line with parallel running tracks
  • Part of the same 'system' - at least operationally: synchronized frequencies and one fare system
  • express trains are meant to serve the larger stations and serve passengers travelling over longer distances
  • local trains are meant to serve the inbetween stations and serve passengers travelling over shorter distances
  • There's a high degree of interchangeability between local and express trains, both in a design sense (cross-platform or a flight of stairs between platforms up or down) and in a passenger flow sense (passengers transferring between both modes)

Now, Amsterdam is ruled out by this definition because it does not comply with the second criterion. The Paris examples are ruled out as well because they do not comply with the first and fifth criteria.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:46 PM   #29
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Can we consider part of Moscow Metro line 3 "express" version of "local" line 4?

-Line 3 capability is 5 wagons (137m long train), theoretically possible to fit 6 wagons (165m); line 4 can fit only 4 cars (110m)
The problem is that while line 4 is moslty on-ground, line 3 is mostly deep.
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Как только проедят напечатанные амерами баблосы, нефтя будет падвацать, хас папиисяд, а толяр - пасто диривянных. И ражко сразу развалиццо. Патаму шо она сичаз разваливаиццо, хотя нефтя ещё не падвацать

Last edited by dars-dm; October 2nd, 2013 at 08:55 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 10:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
And nobody ever takes the NS trains to arrive in the city center earlier? I'm not going to believe that.
Of course there are people who do that, though not necessarily because it's faster; it might also be cheaper. I hold an NS customer card which means I can travel by NS trains with a discount. So, on certain trips I could also make by metro, taking the train is the better - or cheaper - option.

However, that fact alone doesn't make the NS-metro parallel configuration in Amsterdam a local/express configuration. In line with your botanical garden comparison, that would be akin to calling each and every flower with red leaves a rose. You'd have to specify additional criteria and that's exactly what I've been trying to do in my previous post.

Now, I'm not so naive to believe that we'll ever get to a comprehensive definition, so that's not what my proposal was meant for. Rather, I intended it as a starting point for fine-tuning the definition we could use in this thread.

And I do believe we should have that discussion first and at least try and come up with some form of a comprehensive definition that we could all agree upon, before we start 'fitting in' systems into this definition. We might all agree upon which flowers we call roses, but I'm not so sure about the whole local/express paradigm just yet.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 02:13 PM   #31
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People would hardly ever take a train from Amsterdam Centraal Station to Holendrecht, so they could switch to metro there to continue on to Gein in order to save time... they would just take a metro at Centraal Station. The whole system is just not set up for this local-express service interchange.

I agree with Alargule.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 07:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkstrknb View Post

Interestingly, just south of Howard, the there is a short corridor where the inner red line tracks run express and the outer purple (and now brown line on the same tracks) stop at the local stops.

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You mean just south of Belmont.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 07:17 PM   #33
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Staten Island Railway has express service, with some trains running non-stop between New Dorp and the ferry in the mornings and between the ferry and Great Kills in evening rush (peak direction only).

http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/sircur.pdf

This is not achieved via extra tracks - it's built into the schedule.
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Old October 4th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
Let me elaborate on my definition a little bit more.

I define a 'local/express' configuration in a narrow sense, with the following conditions in place. All criteria have to be met:

1. Designed or set up as a single line with parallel running tracks

2. Part of the same 'system' - at least operationally: synchronized frequencies and one fare system

3. express trains are meant to serve the larger stations and serve passengers travelling over longer distances

4. local trains are meant to serve the inbetween stations and serve passengers travelling over shorter distances

5. There's a high degree of interchangeability between local and express trains, both in a design sense (cross-platform or a flight of stairs between platforms up or down) and in a passenger flow sense (passengers transferring between both modes)
Alargule, now I understand your point better. Your definition is very good (for better reference, I added index numbers).

Only, how do you want to prevent that every line that just occasionally skips one stop has to be counted as an express? (The list would be very long and not at all meaningful then.)

Maybe we should try to agree about the purpose of such a list. IMHO it should be something like a guide for metro/subway enthusiasts.
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Old October 4th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #35
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Agreed; your average commuter or metro passenger couldn't probably care less about such definition questions. However, metro buffs like us can go on and on discussing and categorizing metro operations

As for your question: the answer to that depends on whether you want to define a line operation that skips one station as a subset of a local/express operation, or vice versa: is a local/express configuration a subset of a type of operation where trains skip stations?

I'd say - even if only for definition's sake - the latter. Normal train or line operations on a metro network would entail trains calling at all stations, but in certain cases trains skip stations. The latter kind of custom operation can then further be categorized in 'skip stop', 'local/express' etc. and each custom operation can be further split up along ever more precise and detailed criteria.
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Old October 6th, 2013, 09:58 PM   #36
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I don't agree that any line that skips one station should appear in the list. Such a list would not be manageable nor practicable. Such tiny details would not be interesting for the metro buff, and whenever an obscure metro city starts or stops skipping a station tomorrow, we would have to update the list.

So where should we draw the line between what's an express and what's not? This is the point where I included the 'hardware' setup into the definition. That at least helps keeping the list manageable and reduces the need for frequent updates. Because this list should be something that lasts

As you might have guessed, my actual intention for starting this thread is to finally create a metrobits.org page about express metros and I appreciate any help!
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Old October 7th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #37
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That's funny, but the only service in Madrid which could match the definition is some trains operated early in the morning in the light rail line ML3 between Boadilla and Madrid for skipping some underused stops in between.
http://www.metroligero-oeste.es/pdfs...o_CityPlus.pdf

Furthermore you have the express services operated on some Cercanías (commuter train network) lines called "Civis".
http://www.renfe.com/viajeros/cercan...rid/civis.html

However, for the rest of the heavy metro network, commuter trains work as the express network for most of the city. For sure, there are some faster lines than others, but not really express services.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 10:12 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
I don't agree that any line that skips one station should appear in the list. Such a list would not be manageable nor practicable. Such tiny details would not be interesting for the metro buff, and whenever an obscure metro city starts or stops skipping a station tomorrow, we would have to update the list.

So where should we draw the line between what's an express and what's not? This is the point where I included the 'hardware' setup into the definition. That at least helps keeping the list manageable and reduces the need for frequent updates. Because this list should be something that lasts
Ah, might have formulated my response a bit better then, I guess, as I was pretty much on the same line L/E should be seen as a way of 'custom operations' versus 'standard operations' on metro systems. 'Standard' = all trains stop at all stations; versus 'Custom' = not all trains stop at all stations. The latter can be further split up into:
  • Local/express operations
  • Other (skip stop, bypass tracks etc.)

We're concerned with the first subset: local/express operations. Maybe we could use the five criteria I summed up as a starting point for making the list? And in that case: I would split the list up into individual lines (grouped by system) rather than systems, as not all lines on each system necessarily have local/express operations. This is even the case for NYC. It would be even better if we could include the starting and ending station of the local/express segment of each line.

Quote:
As you might have guessed, my actual intention for starting this thread is to finally create a metrobits.org page about express metros and I appreciate any help!
I'd have guessed so No problem, I'd be happy to contribute.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 07:55 PM   #39
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New York has a lot of capacity for express services on the tracks that are not in passenger use at the moment, with line segments of 4 (orange) or 3 (pink) tracks where only 2 are used.

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Old October 7th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #40
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Wow, that's cool!
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