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Old October 20th, 2014, 06:26 PM   #341
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They'll get it.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Offereins View Post
NY will have an epic cluster instead. Much more valuable than just 1 icon IMO
Debateable.

Although, in a sense, clusters themselves can sometimes be icons. Canary Wharf in London is extremely modest by skyscraper standards, but within the context of the city, and due to its design, it has certainly become an icon, no question about it.

The same will happen to the new World Trade Centre when 3WTC and 2WTC are finished.

The Big Three in Shanghai are perhaps the only example of buildings that are both individually iconic and iconic together.

But the fact remains - one spectacular building will almost always be more valuable to a city than a dozen mediocre ones. And even if you think the whole Hudson Yards project is a tremendous feat of design (which I could be tempted into believing), it's no Empire State Building. Or Sears Tower. Or Burj Khalifa.

I think one of the problems with Midtown is that it's becoming a poorly defined plateau with no focal point. All the craziness on 57th as well as the Hudson Yards to the west are flattening out the centre of Manhattan. And whereas 1WTC is a clearly defined, and spectacular, focal point for the lower reaches, anything north of, say, 34th Street is just becoming an enormous glass mesa with lots of little points of interest but no pinnacle.

Heck, you could say the Empire State is still the architectural heart of the city, even when you disregard its social and historical importance. It remains one of the tallest buildings in the world (which is just staggering when you think about it) and a true peak for the city.

That's why Related are trying so hard to make the plaza more important than it will end up being. They need Cloud Gate just to make the Hudson Yards interesting, but if they had built a 500m+ tower on the site, it would have been inherently interesting on its own, and wouldn't need such tourist-y nonsense.

I think when the whole thing is finished, the Hudson Yards will, as hunser said, be seen as a missed opportunity. Only in New York would multiple supertalls and 30 billion dollars of new buildings be called 'conservative', but conservative is what it is, nonetheless.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 07:08 PM   #343
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totally agree with that especially the hudson spire site
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Old October 21st, 2014, 04:25 AM   #344
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I'm not so pessimistic about the place of HY in the coming years though I do wish there was a truly bold signature tower that the original inspiration of Hudson Spire could have been. Nonetheless, it will be a magnificent presence in the skyline and the cluster will most definitely make a great impact.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:59 AM   #345
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Agreed. This is why, even though I find Chicago's skyline more "curated" and elegant than Midtown Manhattan's because it has three identifiable peaks (Sears, Trump, Hancock). This is why I like the peak effect created by 432 Park, even if it will be short-lived.

Regarding Hudson Yards, I echo that it is overall kind of a let down. Not that it's bad, by any means. In fact I like that most of the towers have some quirk so it feels like a nice little ensemble. But it's nothing spectacular. I'm still very glad it's being built as the that part of town is pretty underutilized, but it would have been nice just one of the towers stood out. I think 1 Vanderbilt would have looked nice there.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 04:02 AM   #346
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326m and 48 floors

A building for giants?? Almost 7m per floor!
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 08:14 AM   #347
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I still think it's too early to dismiss the notion that we can get a standout... maybe one that hasn't even popped up yet(you hear me, Wanda?)

I'm still hoping designs will emerge that will make for outstanding additions but we do need that one will a little extra height... a 1,500 footer like One Vanderbilt will be with its spire would be great. Hoping somehow we get one truly ambitious design and height at least. On the other hand, the rising West Side overall including Hudson Yards, Brookfield and the towers going to built up that Midtown West corridor will really be a breathtaking addition to the skyline. Yes,, as of now it's a bit more conservative and less standout than most of us would like but still, which ones among you won't be totally jazzed as the cranes go up and the skyline fills out over the next 2-5 years? You'll be squeeing all the same!
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:51 PM   #348
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You're right. It is too early to dismiss the entire project as boring. However, there are only a few things you can rely upon to make a building/project stand out; design, location, height, utility.

Only one of those is an objective measurement, the rest are up for opinion. A plain white cereal-box skyscraper would be hugely impressive if it was 700m tall, just through sheer mass. But as it stands, none of the Hudson towers have the necessary height to overcome the need for a good design.

So it's not impossible for the project to be amazing, it's just less likely because it now relies more upon design and artistic merit. Which is why they're spending an outrageous amount of money to augment the whole thing with a sculpture in the plaza. They recognize the project's deficiencies and are trying to plug a gap.

432 Park is a white box. If it was 200m tall it wouldn't even be talked about. But instead it's hugely tall, and stands proud from its surroundings. It gets away with a boring design through engineering clout and aesthetic dominance.

I don't think any of the proposed Hudson Yards towers do that. They're all reasonably good looking and reasonably tall. But not exceptional in either regard.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:29 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
You're right. It is too early to dismiss the entire project as boring. However, there are only a few things you can rely upon to make a building/project stand out; design, location, height, utility.

Only one of those is an objective measurement, the rest are up for opinion. A plain white cereal-box skyscraper would be hugely impressive if it was 700m tall, just through sheer mass. But as it stands, none of the Hudson towers have the necessary height to overcome the need for a good design.

So it's not impossible for the project to be amazing, it's just less likely because it now relies more upon design and artistic merit. Which is why they're spending an outrageous amount of money to augment the whole thing with a sculpture in the plaza. They recognize the project's deficiencies and are trying to plug a gap.

432 Park is a white box. If it was 200m tall it wouldn't even be talked about. But instead it's hugely tall, and stands proud from its surroundings. It gets away with a boring design through engineering clout and aesthetic dominance.

I don't think any of the proposed Hudson Yards towers do that. They're all reasonably good looking and reasonably tall. But not exceptional in either regard.
I think HY stands out because of its density.. I do agree it won't have something that dominates the skyline as Nordstrom, 432 Park, Steinway and One Vanderbilt will... nothing quite that tall. Maybe Chase goes higher floors, maybe Mc Court's tower across the street will have the height. Who knows? Maybe the long predicted Wanda development will sprout in the area. While other supertalls that may sprout in the area, Brookfield's tallest is 1,200 or so ft... the Silverman tower that may top 100 floors alas will not soar correspondingly due to average height ceilings, 1100 ft or so is the maximum I hear.

However, there will be a nice number of 700ft + towers that will fill in the West Side very nicely. I live across the Hudson in Jersey City, and it will make a tremendous difference in the skyline. We will have to also see if the Tishman-Speyer choice for design of what was touted as the Hudson Spire site will result in something not only nice, impressive... but breathtaking. I certainly think HY could have been out of this world... it won't likely match that but I do think five-ten years from now as we are excitedly seeing the new Midtown East revival finally fully take shape and possibly a few supertalls in the current Penn Station area to join the supertall frenzy going on today we will positively view HY and the whole West Side buildup as transformative and successful.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 02:08 PM   #350
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We know that, at the least, the HY will have a 1,285 ' tower. No city in the Americas and Europe (other than Chicago) has a tower that tall.

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Old October 23rd, 2014, 08:59 PM   #351
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1,285' tower is no slouch especially that it will be taller than the ESB imo, It's just it will be surrounded with high concentration of very tall buildings.
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Hudson Yards mega development Map: June 2015
http://i.imgur.com/FVrYwpy.jpg
(click again once inside to enlarge the map)

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Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:49 PM   #352
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1.285 is not nearly enough to be the tallest in NY.
I like this cluster as a whole.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 11:10 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
1,285' tower is no slouch especially that it will be taller than the ESB imo, It's just it will be surrounded with high concentration of very tall buildings.
I agree that 1,285' is tall, but as Eric Offereins said, for New York it's pretty much average these days. I know that sounds crazy and we should be glad we've come this far along.
The city needs new peeks to even out the Midtown plateau. The 57th towers are doing a great job, as does 1 Vandy (although a 100 more feet to the roof wouldn't hurt). Thats why the HY / Manhattan West need a signature tower, at least 1,600ft+ to the roof.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 09:50 AM   #354
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Be patient. Hudson Yards has just begun, many more supertalls are coming.

Only a small proportion of the Hudson Yards area is actually controlled by Related or Brookfield. And Related only has building details for half their site (western half is still in preliminary stages).

Given that 80-90% of the Hudson Yards area is unknown, I'm sure we'll get some new skyline peaks.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 06:21 AM   #355
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As per the NYT, JPMC will stay in its current location.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 06:52 AM   #356
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You know what is interesting??

Quote:
Ultimately, Chase was unable to strike a deal with Related for the two parcels, known as 50 and 55 Hudson Yards. Related set an Oct. 15 deadline during weeks of negotiations. Rather than wait, Related struck a deal to sell a major stake in 55 Hudson Yards to a Japanese company.
Obviously that this implies Related and the Japanese are partners for 55 Hudson. Could we see 55 Hudson built sooner rather than later???

JPMorgan Chase Drops Plan to Build 2 West Side Towers
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/29/ny...w-nytimes&_r=1

Quote:
The possibility that JPMorgan Chase would build a two-towered, $6.5 billion headquarters on the Far West Side of Manhattan streaked across the skyline in recent weeks, only to die quietly on Tuesday.

Jamie Dimon, chairman of Chase, called Mayor Bill de Blasio and Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Tuesday to say that the country’s largest bank had decided to stay put on the East Side.

The bank had created a sensation by exploring a proposal to build a 62-story skyscraper and a second 40-story tower for 16,000 employees on adjoining parcels on the north side of 33rd Street, between 10th and 11th Avenues.

But the proposed building project — one of the largest in New York City history for a single tenant — required the resolution of a number of thorny issues, including the size of a subsidy package for Chase and the purchase of the land from Related Companies.

In the course of negotiations, the bank suggested that thousands of midlevel jobs could leave the city if the deal foundered. The mayor, in turn, publicly scoffed at the idea of handing over $1 billion in tax breaks and cash to Chase, on top of an existing $600 million in property tax breaks.

“This is an outcome that validates our approach, and our belief that these deals often come down to factors that have nothing to do with taxpayer subsidies,” Alicia Glen, deputy mayor for economic development, said in a statement on Tuesday. “We’re glad that JPMorgan has decided to maintain its buildings and its work force right where they are for the foreseeable future.”

Ultimately, Chase was unable to strike a deal with Related for the two parcels, known as 50 and 55 Hudson Yards. Related set an Oct. 15 deadline during weeks of negotiations. Rather than wait, Related struck a deal to sell a major stake in 55 Hudson Yards to a Japanese company.

Related suggested that the bank build one tower and occupy half of a second skyscraper that Related is building nearby for Time Warner.

But Chase began reviewing all of its alternatives, including a move downtown. In the end, the bank decided it would remain at the two buildings it owns in Midtown, at 270 Park Avenue and 383 Madison Avenue. Chase also has thousands of employees at the Metrotech complex in Brooklyn.

One executive involved in the talks provided an alternative explanation: He said the bank’s board decided that it would be unwise to move to new towers in light of increased regulatory scrutiny in Washington since the 2008 recession.

Like many financial institutions, Chase has been increasingly cost-conscious, moving technical and administrative employees to Brooklyn, Jersey City and elsewhere.

The bank, one of the city’s largest private employers, has also obtained a total of $324 million in tax breaks from New Jersey, as well as over $100 million from New York to move to Metrotech.

In the latest round of negotiations, Chase had talked to city and state officials about a “wish list” of benefits totaling, according to one account, over $1 billion. Chase said the city would come out ahead, despite any incentives it might provide.

Critics of corporate subsidies worried that the city might be returning to an era of retention deals, which had largely disappeared under Mr. de Blasio’s predecessor, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg. The Committee for Better Banks, which includes labor unions and some liberal groups, was about to issue a report denouncing subsidies for Chase when the deal collapsed.

“New York has had an amazing run of job growth over the past decade,” said Jonathan Bowles, director of the nonprofit Center for an Urban Future. “I don’t see the need to turn back the clock and start another wave of big companies clamoring for tax breaks.”
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Hudson Yards mega development Map: June 2015
http://i.imgur.com/FVrYwpy.jpg
(click again once inside to enlarge the map)
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Old October 29th, 2014, 12:46 PM   #357
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It seems like Related wasn't willing to play ball, which suggests that others have expressed an interest in 50 HY.

Last edited by LondoniumLex; October 29th, 2014 at 03:01 PM.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 04:21 PM   #358
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This is very deflating news. Bloomie wouldn't have let this happen!
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Old October 29th, 2014, 05:22 PM   #359
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It's no big deal. Related's reluctance to close the deal suggests that others are interested in 50 HY. (The fact that Skadden passed on this superior site also suggests that it's unavailable.)

The silver lining is that JPMC was going to scrap the current design, which I quite like.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 06:58 PM   #360
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jpmc move to 2 wtc
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