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Old June 12th, 2014, 01:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1M14 View Post
The idea of sending services via the City Union line as a Glasgow Crossrail will always suffer greatly from the fact that the vast majority of passengers want to go within walking distance of Central or Queen Street. Moving existing services to the Crossrail line would disrupt the journeys of the majority of passengers; the alternative is to run extra services but there aren't a vast number of people who actually want to go between Dunblane and Ayr or wherever and so the services would be mostly empty. .
I think a properly built scheme on the City Union line with an interchange between the Argyle Line at a 'Glasgow St Enoch or Trongate' and another at High Street could work. It's not remote enough that it couldn't function as a station for the city centre and people would adjust. I think there could be significant benefits for cross Glasgow travel and journeys that aren't being made due to walking interchanges. Purely speculative though as it won't happen which is a shame. I also doubt some of the methods used in these CBRs, people get them to say what they want.

I do feel for the Cumbernauld passengers. The reversal at Springburn has really hurt journey times and is a downgrade of the service. Even an express bus battling the traffic at peak time is about the same time of the train journey now and is cheaper. I know of a few people who've chucked the train at least for the moment.
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Old June 13th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #42
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so am I correct to understand that the current unsatisfactory situation of Cumbernauld trains reversing at Springburn is temporary? If so, it seems like a reasonable sacrifice to make in order to secure overall improvements across the network.
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Old June 13th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #43
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so am I correct to understand that the current unsatisfactory situation of Cumbernauld trains reversing at Springburn is temporary? If so, it seems like a reasonable sacrifice to make in order to secure overall improvements across the network.
Yes, once the work at Queen Street is done the service is planned to return to normal with 1 EMU and 1 DMU (to Falkirk Grahamston) service an hour. Once the other electrification is finished the FKG service will be run with an EMU as well. If the extra 1tph is well-used then I can see there being a possibility that in future the Springburn reversal services could continue as additional services above and beyond the standard ones.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 05:23 PM   #44
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14 @ 6.31

So how low is this situation going to last?
1 useable train per hour to C/nauld?

Absolutely terrible service -- the town has been sold down the river by the Tartan Tories and a civil service who don't live there.

And then there is the problem over Abronhill.

Talked about for years by the local Tartan Tories.
Then they get their hands on the levers of power -- and what happens?

Absolutely nothing.

Add in Stepps and Gartcosh getting stiffed as well.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 05:25 PM   #45
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Leggy @ 2.45

The question has to be asked -- where do you live?
Would you accept a halving of the useable service for 5/6 years?
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Old June 14th, 2014, 08:40 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
14 @ 6.31

So how low is this situation going to last?
1 useable train per hour to C/nauld?

Absolutely terrible service -- the town has been sold down the river by the Tartan Tories and a civil service who don't live there.

And then there is the problem over Abronhill.

Talked about for years by the local Tartan Tories.
Then they get their hands on the levers of power -- and what happens?

Absolutely nothing.

Add in Stepps and Gartcosh getting stiffed as well.
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Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
Leggy @ 2.45

The question has to be asked -- where do you live?
Would you accept a halving of the useable service for 5/6 years?
This situation is only going to last until Queen Street HL has been wired, which will need to be finished before the electric E&G services begin in 2016. As I said, the current situation is by no means perfect but why don't you try to come up with something else that is less bad? Removing services from the HL station is important for when they will be closing platforms off for the electrification and lengthening works.

Have you no concept of long-term gain for short-term pain? When these works are finished, in only a few short years, the resulting service will be better than it has ever been before with the advent of electric traction (which will almost certainly be brand-spanking-new as part of the wider EGIP order).

The alternative to EGIP was to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on GARL and EARL - the latter being made fantastically more complicated by the need to use DMUs as they weren't planning to electrify the EGIP lines beforehand. Rather than spending that money on benefitting the smaller number of people interested in going to Edinburgh and Glasgow Airports, the money is being spent on the much larger number of people who use services all across the Central Belt that are being electrified.

A station at Abronhill is much more likely when the services are electric than it is when the services are diesel because there is much less time penalty from stopping and starting there. The same goes for the idea of a station at Robroyston as well, and with all other places along electrified lines.

It is also not as if the two Dalmuir EMU services are totally unusable. For the majority of people, they are just as suitable alone as the previous service had been as not every journey is fantastically time-sensitive. Most people don't care about the fact their train reverses in Springburn, other than those who can remember the service before the advent of the Cowlairs Curve when they had to reverse there to get into the HL station.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 02:23 AM   #47
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14 @ 6.40pm

Do you have skin in the EGIP game?
Are you part of the project team -- your comments are very defensive?

You talk plenty much you but you forget the magic words?
Garngad Chord -- Provide that and it all makes sense.

The Springburn turnback / standstill will hurt the C/nauld line.
25 years of progress wasted for the want of some leadership.

Love your patronising attitude to C/nauld / Gartcosh / Stepps.
They are not time sensitive unlike the Auld Reekie middle class.

Do EGIP right -- Build the Garngad Curve.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 02:48 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
14 @ 6.40pm

Do you have skin in the EGIP game?
Are you part of the project team -- your comments are very defensive?

You talk plenty much you but you forget the magic words?
Garngad Chord -- Provide that and it all makes sense.

The Springburn turnback / standstill will hurt the C/nauld line.
25 years of progress wasted for the want of some leadership.

Love your patronising attitude to C/nauld / Gartcosh / Stepps.
They are not time sensitive unlike the Auld Reekie middle class.

Do EGIP right -- Build the Garngad Curve.
No, I'm not a member of the EGIP project team. I have also been mistaken for an employee of HS2 Ltd on other threads and forums.

My comments seem defensive because you are making particularly pointed comments that do not take into account other factors. Your insistence on the idea that the Cumbernauld service has been completely ruined is mildly irritating because a reasonable person would see that even though the electric services are longer to Queen Street than the previous Cumbernauld diesel, the increased frequency and enhanced connectivity (not to mention the guaranteed extra capacity of a 3x20m EMU rather than a 2-car DMU with end doors) mitigates this rather well.

The Garngad Chord is not a silver bullet that solves everything. In particular, it would actively preclude services going to Barnhill or Springburn. This could obviously be mitigated by the construction of a replacement station on the direct route, but this would increase the costs considerably and make the train service less accessible to the larger number of people who live nearby to the existing stations.

I am not being patronising to the people of Cumbernauld. They are as deserving of a good rail service into Glasgow as anyone is. The current arrangement is the least bad overall compromise which ensures that the works to electrify the entire Central Belt can continue at full speed. Please remember that for several months there will be no services into Queen Street HL due to works in Cowlairs Tunnel? By sending the Cumbernauld services to the low level the users of this service will be mostly insulated from the widescale effects that this will cause most other travellers.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 03:19 AM   #49
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14 @ 12.48

Cannot agree with you level of analysis.
You will not fill a 3 carriage train from C/nauld if it takes 39 minutes to QS ...

... No matter where the doors are.
Very weak point -- flannel.

The Garngad chord fixes all the problems.
The future is the old service to QS HL both to Falkirk.
Plus two services via the Garngad chord to QS LL.

That is the start.

Then comes Glasgow Crossrail.
Re-model Bellgrove -- 4 platforms.

The comes the cableway to GLA from PGS.
Plus the Glasgow Cross / Gorbals / West Street.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 11:52 PM   #50
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Quote button mate. Dead easy.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #51
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K @ 9.52

You must be some guy.
Tips on housekeeping and you get your fan club to chip in.

Now my turn -- any thoughts on the issue at hand?
Anything will do -- big quote and a small comment.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 12:34 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
K @ 9.52

You must be some guy.
Tips on housekeeping and you get your fan club to chip in.

Now my turn -- any thoughts on the issue at hand?
Anything will do -- big quote and a small comment.
It's impossible to share any thoughts on the matter when it's impossible to have any clue who's posts you are replying to, which in turn makes the discussion incomprehensible.

Are we still on about the EMU services to Cumbernauld?
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Old June 17th, 2014, 12:52 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
K @ 9.52

You must be some guy.
Tips on housekeeping and you get your fan club to chip in.

Now my turn -- any thoughts on the issue at hand?
Anything will do -- big quote and a small comment.
Really how hard is it to click the quote button, it takes less time to click quote than come up with an abbreviation for the users name and what time they posted at.

It's good that we're seeing progress with the EGIP and while there maybe interim issues it's not like this is isolated, upon electrification of other routes people have been disadvantaged until wires reach other destinations and also due to the nation wide DMU shortage. It's better EMUs are running rather than DMUs under the wires.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 12:52 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolothos View Post
It's impossible to share any thoughts on the matter when it's impossible to have any clue who's posts you are replying to, which in turn makes the discussion incomprehensible.

Are we still on about the EMU services to Cumbernauld?
Instead of quoting people he is obliquely referring to their username and the time that they posted.

Yes. He is of the opinion that the Springburn reversal is the worst thing that has ever happened ever and that it is all the SNP's fault as a conspiracy against the great people of Stepps, Gartcosh and Cumbernauld.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 12:50 PM   #55
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14 @ 10.52

You really don't get it do you?
Long hard slog over 25 years to get the C/nauld line up to speed --literally.

And then what?
Some bean counter puts a redline through the Garngad Chord and we are back to the eighties.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 03:43 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
14 @ 10.52

You really don't get it do you?
Long hard slog over 25 years to get the C/nauld line up to speed --literally.

And then what?
Some bean counter puts a redline through the Garngad Chord and we are back to the eighties.
Yes, and once Queen Street HL is electrified it will not just be back to normal but it will be even better than normal. The EMU timings along the route are significantly better than the DMU ones and once they're going into the high level it will be even faster.

Nothing that was proposed but then removed from EGIP is unable to be reinstated in future once passenger numbers grow strongly from the sparks effect. Once there's a Charing Cross turnback or some other capacity increase between Hyndland and Partick (plus a redoubling of Bellgrove Junction) it will be possible to run Garngard Chord services as well as the standard Springburn ones, ensuring that no one is disadvantaged by the Chord and thus improving its business case.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #57
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14 @ 1.43

Missing a couple of points:

When will the Falkirk trains go EMU?
When will the Garngad Chord be built?

Why has the M80 framework been forgotten?
Where are we with Glasgow Crossrail proposal?

Finally when was the last time it took 39 minutes to go from C/nauld to GQS?
This is worse than the 80's proposal to put the C/nauld trains through Coatbridge.

That idea was howled down.
The silence from the local paper on this is shameful.
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Old June 17th, 2014, 11:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
14 @ 1.43

Missing a couple of points:

When will the Falkirk trains go EMU?
The GLQ-CUB direct service will go to EMU once GLQ HL has been electrified. The GLQ-FKG services will go to EMU once that line has been electrified, which will not be soon after the main E&G because it is such an important diversionary route. Some of the EGIP timetable has been shifted around with Whifflet being done four or so years before originally planned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
When will the Garngad Chord be built?
The Garngard Chord is no longer part of EGIP and so there is no guarantee that it will be built at all. However, nothing has been built that precludes it being built at a later date once the business case is better. In particular, the electrification works do not increase the number of paths available through Cowlairs tunnel down to the high level station and so any additional services from Cumbernauld would have little choice but to go to the low level and that would be a long-term thing that could justify the Garngard Chord. That would still be dependent upon extra capacity being made available for trains on the North Clyde/Argyll lines, as was going to happen before the de-scoping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
Why has the M80 framework been forgotten?
Where are we with Glasgow Crossrail proposal?
Glasgow Crossrail is not the best use of limited resources right now as the benefits it delivers are not strong enough to justify even the limited cost of making the City Union line available for passenger services. However, nothing is being built that will preclude the option in future, and as more of the rail network is electrified the benefits of the link will steadily improve. The City Union line is due to be electrified in CP5 anyway, as is Edinburgh's South Suburban line which has a similar set of circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bloke on Tour View Post
Finally when was the last time it took 39 minutes to go from C/nauld to GQS?the
This is worse than the 80's proposal to put the C/nauld trains through Coatbridge.

That idea was howled down.
The silence from the local paper on this is shameful.
The Coatbridge diversion would also have cut Stepps and Gartcosh off the rail network and would also have involved an 'evil' reversal. The idea was rightly bonkers and it was meant to be a long-term suggestion as well. The Cumbernauld service is not perfect by any means but it is a short-term measure until the high level station is electrified.

Do you live in Cumbernauld?
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Old June 18th, 2014, 12:08 AM   #59
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I think 1M14 is doing a great job being patient here and explaining a very complex project and serious decisions in a clear and helpful manner. Fat Bloke, I think you could do to acknowledge this as your tone and manner invites people to be mean to you but instead you are being given reasonable and reasoned answers. Frankly, you're coming across as a bit of a prat.

I live in an area with no rail provision, the local line was axed during the beeching cuts. I live about as far out of town as Cumbernauld is and, believe me, I would cut off my arm for a 39 minute service with the promise of time, capacity and frequency improvements in the next 2-3 years. I also recall how miserable it was to use the m80/a80 whilst it was being upgraded a few years back but consoled myself by thinking about how much better it would be when the work completed.
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Old June 18th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #60
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14 @ 9.21

Do you write press releases for EGIP?
Or do you just read them out loud?

First up -- I fear your posts are somewhat inconsistent.

Next -- You do not know your history.
Stepps and Gartcosh were not on the rail network when the original Coatbridge plan was being developed. Stepps was added when the new, direct line improvements became the way forward.

Third -- How short term is short term?
Looks to be stretching well on the way to 2020.
Just when will the track to FG/S be electrified?

Fourth -- Glasgow Crossrail
The original analysis you quote is so Moscow Metro it hurts.
Add in the anti GLA / East Coast agenda and it might all makes sense to you.
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