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View Poll Results: Sould spires count upon assessing the height of buidings?
Yes 42 53.85%
No 36 46.15%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:01 AM   #21
patrykus
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Can you apply it to the pictures I posted as well?
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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #22
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No, they can't fit on my tablet.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #23
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google it up then in size you prefer
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Old November 16th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #24
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For u? Until this moment i thought i was the world's laziest man
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Old November 16th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
right.....

..

just putted on top
All 3 are clearly spires (part of the structure and architecture) and should be added to the official height.
1WTC is a different story IMO.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 07:59 AM   #26
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No, they are simply sticks buildings put on top of the building and its often very misleading when reading a list that includes them. The one on the right is the taller building, imo.

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Old November 17th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #27
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How exactly are they "put on top"? Just bolted to the last occupied floor? Truth is they are structurally, architecturally and visually integrated in the building and are part of it. Can you tell me without a doubt where the spire here starts exactly?

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Old November 17th, 2013, 01:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
How exactly are they "put on top"? Just bolted to the last occupied floor? Truth is they are structurally, architecturally and visually integrated in the building and are part of it. Can you tell me without a doubt where the spire here starts exactly?

Yes, I could tell you but I would need to have an exact plan of the Kingdom Tower. Without it I can only tell you based on the SSP diagram drawing and that shows the roof to be at approximately 840 meters according to the roof height measurement system I developed

Spires, just like antennas, are part of the structure, but they are not part of the building. Just because you can't directly see where the building ends and the spire begins doesn't mean that a roof doesn't exist. For example, you can't see where the head ends and makeup begins when looking at an actor in a conehead makeup, but does this mean that his conhead makeup is part of him?

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Old November 17th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Just because you can't directly see where the building ends and the spire begins doesn't mean that a roof doesn't exist.
It's not only that you can't see it externally you couldn't even see it by looking at the inside structure either. There were even plans for kt to go with the concrete to the very tip of the spire then where would it start, huh? I know you can tell this part of the spire is The Spire and this inch below is the building but it's denying the reality. With spires on flat roofs they are at least there to count them, with buildings like burj or kingdom tower on the other hand there is no logical explanation why would one part of the building count and the other not.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
It's not only that you can't see it externally you couldn't even see it by looking at the inside structure either. There were even plans for kt to go with the concrete to the very tip of the spire then where would it start, huh? I know you can tell this part of the spire is The Spire and this inch below is the building but it's denying the reality. With spires on flat roofs they are at least there to count them, with buildings like burj or kingdom tower on the other hand there is no logical explanation why would one part of the building count and the other not.
There is a logical explanation: We know that there is a spire, so we just have to find it. A spire can be characterized as a thin unoccupied structure. So we just search for when the width of the structure decreases to a certain small width and if it is unoccupied at that altitute we have the roof which separates the building from the spire. This in my opinion is both logical and based on reality

In my opinion the whole discussion whether something is architectural or not is the thing not based on reality. It is based only how an architect calls a certain structure, in other words, it has no physical basis, but only verbal basis

Also, even if concrete goes to the tip of the spire it doesn't mean anything. In steel only buildings the steel goes from ground level to the tip of a spire or antenna but did we have any problems determining the roof of the North Tower of the old WTC even though the same structural material was used from ground to pinnacle? Nope
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Old November 17th, 2013, 02:02 PM   #31
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Suppose we can somehow find this indistinguishable spire. Why would we chop it off if it's architectural and structural part of the building?
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Old November 17th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #32
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Because it isn't a part of the building. It is only a part of the structure. But guyed masts and chimneys are structures as well, so why are we not counting them together with skyscrapers? Because they are structures but not buildings. If we count only buildings then we should count only buildings, not additional structures on top of them
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Old November 17th, 2013, 02:37 PM   #33
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but how can you count crowns then? with this thinking you should cut the top off of shanghai tower and seoul lotte as well, because they are just put on top of the building pretty much. an integrated spire is nothing more than a pointy crown.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #34
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Because solid crowns are a part of the roof and therefore a part of the building. It's all about sufficient width. Solid crowns are visualy indistinguishable from the occupied parts of a building in terms of geometry and width. Open air lattice crowns on the other hand aren't, because they are essentially bundled spires and spires aren't a part of a building. A spire, in order to be a spire must be thin and for something to not be a part of the building it must be both unoccupied, and either comparatiively or numericaly thin. Solid crowns aren't thin

Quote:
A spire can be characterized as a thin unoccupied structure.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
How exactly are they "put on top"?
It differs from building to building. You'd have to ask the civil engineer for the specific building to get a detailed explanation as to how they're added to the top of each.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
Because solid crowns are a part of the roof and therefore a part of the building.
You are not being consistent. The very same can be said about spires - they are part of the roof and therefore a part of the building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
It differs from building to building. You'd have to ask the civil engineer for the specific building to get a detailed explanation as to how they're added to the top of each.
And how those techniques differ from putting a crown on top of a building? What if they don't differ at all?
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Old November 17th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
You are not being consistent. The very same can be said about spires - they are part of the roof and therefore a part of the building.
Nope, I'm perfectly consistent. Both that solid crowns are a part of the roof and that spires are not a part of the roof comes from the same methodology, namely my roof height determination methodology for which I posted a link in my first post in this thread. The determining factor is width. As said in my previous post, it's all about width. Width (consistently) decides what is a part of the building and therefore part of the roof and what isn't

Also, my methodology isn't the only one which counts solid crowns but doesn't count spires. The roof height on SSP works exactly the same in regards to crowns
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Old November 17th, 2013, 06:15 PM   #38
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You can't use width alone to dismiss parts of a building which otherwise meets all the required criteria to be considered as such. As generally size alone is not a decisive factor to make any major distinctions of any objects type. There are little birds, huge insects or giant bacterias. Also I don't believe anybody considers midgets not humans because they are too little for that There are no physical properties to distinguish one part of the kt as a spire and other as a building. And also no reason to disagree that kt spire can't be considered a part of the roof as crowns are. A spire is distinguishable by its shape and function. Not width. In kt case whole building could be considered a spire if not the requirement that a spire can't be occupied and even that is controversial - heard that mecca clock tower crescent is occupied space after all?

As to ssp It's roof height is
1. not official
2. not well defined
3. doesn't claim to be a building height because buildings are not sorted using it.

And lastly it doesn't work like you said. Kt roof for instance is set at 1007m
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Old November 17th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #39
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Width is a subcategory of shape and shape is exactly what I use for defining a spire just as you do. But buildings aren't birds, insects bacteria or people, buildings are buildings. You can't order me to accept official CTBUH height so yeah, I can use roof height to dismiss parts of a building that otherwise meet the CTBUH required criteria for official height. If you don't want to use roof height, you have a right for that but you can't say to other people that they "can't" use roof height. You are not the God Emperor of SSC. Am I telling you that you "can't" use official height, or that you "can't" use pinnacle height? Nope

Also there are no physical properties to distinguish an antenna from a building since antennas and spires have exactly the same physical properties. Both are from steel and steel has the same properties whether you cann it a spire or an antenna. So I see you are a pinnacle height proponent, am I right?

And if you would read my roof height measurement system you would know why the Kingdom Tower has a spire and Shanghai Tower a crown. It's because of their shape and the 30 degree angle rule I made specificaly to deal with buildings like the Kingdom Tower. SSP doesn't have a system to deal with such buildings, so that is why Kingdom Tower is 1 0007 meters to the roof and Burj Khalifa has no roof at all on SSP. This part of the system has been made by me alone, because there is no other system out there that would determine roof height of such buildings

What I was reffering to in my last post was that SSP too counts solid parapets towards roof height. There are errors in their diagrams. For example they list the Chicago Post Office redevelopment as being 2 000 feet to the roof, which the drawing clearly is not. I was speaking of the vast majority of SSP drawings, not about all of them. And yeah, if you click on the height criteria you can make the diagrams to be sorted out by roof height on SSP
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Old November 17th, 2013, 08:24 PM   #40
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You can use roof height if you wish but you can't expect anyone to dismiss a part of a building solely based on its width And yes width alone doesn't describe shape in any way. It merely limits its size in one dimension. In case of your system and kingdom tower you could subjectively set minimal width to whatever you like and all above could still without a doubt be considered a spire unless there were habitable floors inside.

And spires are defined by shape and function as I said. Antennas have different function which unlike width is an actual feature. But I would consider including them to the height. It would spare us trouble examining rare extreme cases like 1wtc.
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