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View Poll Results: Sould spires count upon assessing the height of buidings?
Yes 42 53.85%
No 36 46.15%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 18th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #41
Kanto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
You can use roof height if you wish but you can't expect anyone to dismiss a part of a building solely based on its width And yes width alone doesn't describe shape in any way. It merely limits its size in one dimension. In case of your system and kingdom tower you could subjectively set minimal width to whatever you like and all above could still without a doubt be considered a spire unless there were habitable floors inside.

And spires are defined by shape and function as I said. Antennas have different function which unlike width is an actual feature. But I would consider including them to the height. It would spare us trouble examining rare extreme cases like 1wtc.
I expect anyone to use roof height? Where did I ever say that? Yet it is you who tells me that I "can't" use roof height

You say that width "doesn't" describe a structural element, so what, I say that function "doesn't" describe a structural element in the case of spires and antennas (underlining 22 times "in the case of spires and antennas"), am I obliged to obey you? Nope. Do I expect you to obey me? Nope. Do I expect anybody to obey me? Nope. You continue to present official CTBUH height rules to me as if they were mandatory, well, they aren't. I use roof height and roof height has different rules, so what applies to your measurement doesn't apply to my measurement and vice versa

Also, if you would read my roof height measurement methodology you would know that it doesn't use width "alone" to describe shapes, it uses width (minimum width rule), relative width (50% width of previous structural section rule) and relative height (central height angle rule) together

As to the numbers like the above mentioned 50% relative width and a minimal width of 15 meters and an angle requirement of minimaly 30 degrees, that is what my methodology uses, but if any organization would offer to accept my methodology I would gladly accept their feedback and I would gladly modify these numbers so that all sides are happy. As I said it is a work in progress and so far its the only exact roof height measurement methodology out there. I will one day pursue it officialy and try to propose it to official organizations but not until I'm an engineer, so it is quite a few years away from even becoming a possible chance of being official one day
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Old November 18th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #42
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Don't be childish. Nobody force you to do anything. All we expect is some reasonable explanation why would over over 100m of the building be excluded from the official height if it doesn't differ at all from the rest of it. And the only reason you give is because it's gets too narrow.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 05:14 AM   #43
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It's the same stuff he's been saying in threads for years.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
Don't be childish. Nobody force you to do anything. All we expect is some reasonable explanation why would over over 100m of the building be excluded from the official height if it doesn't differ at all from the rest of it. And the only reason you give is because it's gets too narrow.
Well, your "can't"s and "doesn't"s gave me the impression that you demand me to present an explanation which will make you say that roof height has a right to exist. I mean, my apologies if I am wrong but this is the impression I got from your posts. Those weren't exactly well chosen words by you.

The explanation is that spires don't count in roof height. But no explanation can satisfy you because you don't like roof height. There's nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to use roof height because you don't accept the explanation for roof height. I accept this explanation, many other people accept this explanation, if you don't accept this explanation, very well, you have a right to do so, but don't flame on other people that they are "childish" just because they disagree with you
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Old November 18th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
The explanation is that spires don't count in roof height.
The question was WHY they don't count towards the roof or buildings height if crowns do. And the only reason you give is because they are too narrow.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 02:21 PM   #46
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Yup, that is the reason. Solid crowns and solid parapets are the roof while antennas and spires are addons on a roof. It's all about shape. A roof isn't just the top slab of a building (many buildings don't even have a top slab), a roof is the top part of a building that is still suffieiently wide in realtion to the width of the structure below it. This is characterized by the three factors I meantioned in my previous post, namely width, relative width and relative height of the structural element
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Old November 18th, 2013, 02:37 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
It's all about shape.
Thing is it's not. You could cut kt at any point and top part would still have the same shape. This is why you developed the width rule because you couldn't find any other reason to cut the top portion of it.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #48
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As I said earlier, width is an aspect of shape. But yes, the width rule was developed by me to deal with buildings like the Kingdom Tower or Burj Khalifa

You see, the fact that solid parapets and solid crowns count towards roof height wasn't made by me, it was made by SSP, which has been using it this way long before I made my measurement methodology. On the other hand SSP had no system to define the roof of a building like Burj Khalifa or the Kingdom Tower, so I had to develop a method how to determine this. We all gonna agree that these buildings do have a spire, but they are not one big spire. This means that they must also have a roof, but the problem was finding it. That is why I made the width rule and the central angle rule

In my opinion this was the option that was the most fair. If I would count the ceiling of the top occupied floor as the roof, BK and KT would have a disadvantage in comparison with more conventional towers, but if I would count their pinnacle as their roof, they would have an advantage in comparison with more conventional towers, so I think this way it is as fair as it can be
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Old November 18th, 2013, 03:06 PM   #49
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I feel you have hard time understanding what shape means. These two below have the same shape, they differ in size. There is no shape argument when chopping off the top of kt you just do it at random point.

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Old November 18th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #50
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Yes there is a shape argument in chopping off the Kingdom Tower's spire. I think you are experiencing a bit of a memory loss because you seem to have forgotten about what you called "Da angle". Namely the relative height rule which involves the central angle (30 degrees minimum to be roof and not spire)



Do you see identical shapes on this pic?



But you know all too well what I meant with shape and you are merely playing with words. You know all too well that with shape I meant all geometrical attributes, so width too. I explicitly stated that. This is just how I use the word so I seriously don't understand why you'd like to play with words so much
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Old November 18th, 2013, 03:38 PM   #51
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All of the kingdom tower doesn't meet your angle rule so the width is the only one that does the "chopping". Spire in kt isn't defined by shape in any way in your system because you could set minimal width to whatever you like living you with the spire of exactly the same shape just different length.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #52
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Yes, width matters. I explained it many times before that width is one of the things that matters in defining roof height. As to why I set it to 15 meters, I explained that one too:

Quote:
As to the numbers like the above mentioned 50% relative width and a minimal width of 15 meters and an angle requirement of minimaly 30 degrees, that is what my methodology uses, but if any organization would offer to accept my methodology I would gladly accept their feedback and I would gladly modify these numbers so that all sides are happy. As I said it is a work in progress and so far its the only exact roof height measurement methodology out there. I will one day pursue it officialy and try to propose it to official organizations but not until I'm an engineer, so it is quite a few years away from even becoming a possible chance of being official one day
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Old November 18th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #53
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The remaining question is why the width alone matters so much if all above it is smooth continuation of a building that is below it. The same shape, proportions, cladding, materials and function. It is as much of an continuation of a building roof, walls or however you call it as crowns are in other buildings. And width rule only artificially deny that fact.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #54
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Spires shouldn't count. Some are ridiculous. Like the new WTC being taller than the Sears Tower. Or Nanjing Zifeng Plaza being taller than the Sears Tower. Just ridiculous.
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Old November 18th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #55
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We all know that. But what should we do with those?

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Old November 18th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #56
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The thing is most people who think spires shouldn't count to the official height comes from the "1wtc vs sears" club. They don't think too much about it. They mostly have those two buildings in mind. Wtc spire counts, sears antenna doesn't. So unfair, right? But they don't think what ridiculous implications not counting spires would bring to other towers like kt or burj. Truth is they really don't know what to do with it. In one of the older threads while there were some people agreeing that spires generally shouldn't cont nearly all of them still agreed that in burj it should still without a question be counted in. So they would like to have in fact two systems coexisting in one reality. But that's not going to work.

To support my words with some facts I think it's worth mentioning that even a group of professionals motivated enough start new height measuring organization, setting up new website and collecting new data for still counts burj and kt to it's top because those buildings ARE 800m and 1000m respectively. They are not 200m lower or taller. They are what they are. Of course that means they are counting some spires in and some out making their system inconsistent and therefore compromised leading us to the conclusion that there is no other way than counting spires in all cases weather it is fair or not.

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Old November 18th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #57
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The remaining question is why the width alone matters so much if all above it is smooth continuation of a building that is below it. The same shape, proportions, cladding, materials and function. It is as much of an continuation of a building roof, walls or however you call it as crowns are in other buildings. And width rule only artificially deny that fact.
Width matters because width is one of the fundamental differences between a building and a mast. Spires and antennas are by definition thin steel sticks, so it is their very description that describes small width. That is the reason why both spires and antennas shouldn't be counted, because they are too thin, either on their own or in relation to the building on top of which they are. Too thin to be considered a part of the building

So that also, answers your question, what should we do with the Kingdom Tower - measure its height to the roof
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Old November 18th, 2013, 07:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
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Width matters because width is one of the fundamental differences between a building and a mast.
In case of kt it is even the only difference
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Old November 18th, 2013, 08:02 PM   #59
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Yes, width, together with its central angle are what decides where the roof of the Kingdom Tower is, so you are correct
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Old November 18th, 2013, 08:07 PM   #60
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Which in itself is not enough to stop calling a section a part of a building Which I'm sure you will find out soon after you start seriously trying to sell your idea
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