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Old July 20th, 2015, 09:37 AM   #201
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Can anyone explain to me how natural gas can be used to electrify trains and if that's the case how come countries such as Qatar or UAE haven't done so?
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Old July 20th, 2015, 07:46 PM   #202
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I do not understand the question, but if it comes to dual train (hybrid) VIP Talgo, these schemes are 730 series (in Spanish, sorry, but it is very visual).
Electrically operated first and then with diesel engines.
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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
En el Hilo de las fotos se pregunta por dónde circula la electricidad desde un pantógrafo a la otra tractora en los S-130. Va a través del cable del techo: 680 Amperios cuando son 25 kV y 2.000 A a 3 kV.

Y, de paso, el esquema eléctrico de los S-730:



El esquema diésel:


The spanish 730 series is a dual voltage, which complicates the scheme, in addition to having variable gauge. It is a genuine SUVs.

Here is some information in English.
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Old July 30th, 2015, 12:11 PM   #203
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First test rides Haramain 1 by the Arabian desert. The picture was taken in the PK 219.3 of the HSR Medina - Mecca, under the scorching sun. On this trip the train had an Arab delegation led by President of SRO and the Spanish consortium with Talgo president, Carlos de Palacio forward.

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Soon leave the second train for the Saudi Arabia.
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Old August 1st, 2015, 12:52 PM   #204
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Road to Medina

"Camino de La Medina" great photo (held for months).



Julian Pereda Ruiz, manager of Area Overhead Contact Line High Speed ​​working in the Directorate of Technical Support and Interoperability of the Division of Facilities of Madrid, whose photograph "Camino de La Medina" has been chosen winner among all received throughout the month of July.

Julian spent two and a half years working on the Haramain railway project in Saudi Arabia, participating in the construction of high-speed train that will cover the route between Medina and Mecca. The snapshot shows, tells us, as was the facility to return to Spain.
"As you can see, in the path or a tree is not visible, catenary poles are perfectly aligned and the infrastructure is ready for installation of the road. Rounding out this haze in the background, and the haze where the image is lost. "

The third train (only cars) is moved (at least was authorized to do so, although I have not seen videos) between Rivabellosa (Álava) and Las Matas (Madrid), on July 27, to couple locomotives there. The second train carried the same route on May 5.
According to the authorization, the width of the Talgo 350 SRO is 2,942 mm (the same as the Renfe series 102 / 112).

Moreover, in Spain it is said that good salespeople are selling "sand in the desert", because they are directed to this contest
Contest called "supply of dispensing arena services" (in spanish).
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Old August 3rd, 2015, 06:55 PM   #205
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Jeddah KAIA Airport's Station








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Old August 5th, 2015, 12:11 PM   #206
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Read on the Renfe intranet.

Quote:
The president of SRO (Saudi Railways Organization), HE Khalid Muhammad Al-Suwaiket, made a visit to the facilities of the Haramain project in Saudi Arabia to meet and monitor progress in project implementation during the 28th and 29th of July.
He then moved to the nearby makeshift workshop at the station, operated by Renfe, which accompanied the train drivers and train staff tests Talgo in conducting dynamic tests of the train, where they found the movement thereof to 100 Km/h in the section on testing (KAEC-Medina).

The president of SRO is also very interested in driving mode, a circumstance that allowed Renfe makers who are participating in this work provide any explanations showed.
At the end of his visit he expressed his satisfaction and appreciation to the staff of Renfe and Talgo and the Consortium. At the wheel of the vehicle by Renfe was José Jurado Mármol technician Driving Training.

The next day he visited the WB3 (mounting base), and the station Medina where he checked the degree of completion.
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Old August 7th, 2015, 10:54 AM   #207
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The second train Talgo 350 SRO doing static tests in Las Matas (Madrid).

I am told that it is already making the VIP dual (hybrid electric and diesel) train in the Rivabellosa (Álava) factory. It is absolutely forbidden to take pictures, but if I hear anything and I'll tell you.

Moreover, taking advantage we are talking about Talgo, AVRIL G3 prototype has reached 360 km/h circulating with axes of variable width in two cars.
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Old August 14th, 2015, 12:54 PM   #208
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Haramain Train

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Old August 18th, 2015, 07:46 PM   #209
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A video on the Talgo 350 tests SRO





According to press reports, testing continues smoothly and have already achieved 300 km/h.
The first tests on the railroad AVE to Mecca conclude successfully
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Old August 19th, 2015, 04:02 AM   #210
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So, what kind of speed is expected of those diesel loco units? I'm assuming that the electric Talgo cars are for full-speed, 300kph-running, express services, and the diesels for lower cost services? Or...?
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Old August 19th, 2015, 11:09 AM   #211
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There was an order from SRO to Talgo for 6 diesel trains to Riyadh-Dammam (line not electrified), order was canceled by changes in government plans for the drop in oil prices.

HST orders from Saudi Arabia to Spanish companies:

2015/2016: 35 Talgo 350 SRO electric 300 km/h top commercial speed for Haramain HSR (option 23 trains more)
2016: 1 Talgo VIP corporate Dual (hybrid electric and diesel) for all lines
2015: 5 push-pull trains CAF diesel SAR 200 km/h on the North-South line (Riyadh-Al Hadithah, border with Jordan)

CAF delivered another diesel trains (12 + 4) for 160 km/h to SRO
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Old August 24th, 2015, 12:41 PM   #212
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Inauguration of the entire line from December 2016

Well, it's official: the general director of the project, Bassam Bin Ahmed Ghulman, announced on 21 that SRO resignation to open this December the stretch between Rabigh-KAEC and Medina, and announces the opening of the entire line from 30 December 2016.

It may seem a step back, but it is not; is the realization that if conditions are signed to a contract, the most you can expect is to be met, and that threats only serve to create a bad atmosphere.

The deadlines for Phase 2 were clear: 52 months after notification of the Notice to Proceed, the September 15, 2012 (Renfe Annual Report 2013, page 51). IE: on January 15, 2017.
Deadlines for Phase 1.1 (the platform) have changed. They were awarded on February 8, 2009 with a completion date for the April 5, 2012, as you could see on the official website of SRO (source).
Subsequently the project was added some bridges and other structures (especially in the area 1) for a total of 853 M € (an increase of 59% over the initial award), so the completion was extended until December 31, 2014 . In the official announcement of the start of this post also the completion of Phase 1.1 is announced enters Mecca and Jeddah for the December 30, 2015.

That is, the Phase 1.1 is delayed 3½ years and still being able to meet target dates to sign the contract for Phase 2.

But until yesterday SRO wanted to inaugurate in December 2015 the section between Rabigh-KAEC and Medina. It seems that, once again, forget what they signed: Talgo pledged (page 179) to deliver the first train in December 2014 (and fulfilled), the second at the end of this summer, and from September every three months.
And it seems clear that you can not open a stretch with only two trains.

Last week SRO awarded the installation of embedded track in all stations, and the work will begin in December.
It must have been then that they realized: ohno:

And to finally end where they began, we took a year of threats, controversy and bad press. My congratulations to Saudi transport minister.


Note: all sources and details on Wikipedia (sorry: in spanish, you can see that my english is very bad, but if I do not tell nobody does).
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Old August 24th, 2015, 12:59 PM   #213
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Thanks for the update Gusilz, precise and informative as usual!

Apparently this is how it goes with such big infrastructure projects involving many organizations, pressure groups and companies. The plan to built the line in just three years definitely was too ambitious, I think not even the Chinese would have accomplished such a miracle embedded in a totally inexperienced environment (S.A. has no railway tradition).

Also the Spanish engineering companies involved must have had sorts of Plan B from the beginning on ...



If one looks on Jeddah via Google Earth, it becomes evident that works will still take quite a while to complete. Many bridges in complex urban environments are not yet there (interestingly Aerial Imagery is updated every few weeks in that region).
Of course, if civil infrastructure is not there, the remaining subsystems can not be installed neither ...

It is surely easier in a political system like the one in Saudi Arabia to blame foreigners for the delay. It is a cultural thing too. I think it has to do a lot with pride and honor of the political actors involved. It may be a generalized judgement, but taking responsibilities for cost and time overruns of such an important project is way more difficult for an Arab leader than for an European one which must survive in a continuous deeper political debate by nature.

Even the December 2016 opening date seems pretty ambitious to me when considering what infrastructure is still missing now...
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Old August 24th, 2015, 01:50 PM   #214
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Thank you.
I hope that in December 2016 only the KAEC-Medina stretch opens. And I hope that trains do not have problems with sand.

Spanish media, through ignorance or politically motivated, also blamed the Spanish-Saudi consortium and, unfortunately, I think that also in this case is cultural.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 04:54 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Thanks for the update Gusilz, precise and informative as usual!

Apparently this is how it goes with such big infrastructure projects involving many organizations, pressure groups and companies. The plan to built the line in just three years definitely was too ambitious, I think not even the Chinese would have accomplished such a miracle embedded in a totally inexperienced environment (S.A. has no railway tradition).

Also the Spanish engineering companies involved must have had sorts of Plan B from the beginning on ...



If one looks on Jeddah via Google Earth, it becomes evident that works will still take quite a while to complete. Many bridges in complex urban environments are not yet there (interestingly Aerial Imagery is updated every few weeks in that region).
Of course, if civil infrastructure is not there, the remaining subsystems can not be installed neither ...

It is surely easier in a political system like the one in Saudi Arabia to blame foreigners for the delay. It is a cultural thing too. I think it has to do a lot with pride and honor of the political actors involved. It may be a generalized judgement, but taking responsibilities for cost and time overruns of such an important project is way more difficult for an Arab leader than for an European one which must survive in a continuous deeper political debate by nature.

Even the December 2016 opening date seems pretty ambitious to me when considering what infrastructure is still missing now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Thank you.
I hope that in December 2016 only the KAEC-Medina stretch opens. And I hope that trains do not have problems with sand.

Spanish media, through ignorance or politically motivated, also blamed the Spanish-Saudi consortium and, unfortunately, I think that also in this case is cultural.
While SRO's management has been lousy, the Spanish consortium has been far from blameless. They were very quick to blame "the Chinese" for the delays in civil works (if you're talking about a culture of blaming others, here's an example!), then they made ludicrous excuses about sand.

To give you an understanding: The region the HSR is being built isn't sandy, it's rocky and mountainous with just a couple of shallow sand banks in the Rabigh valley. This area is a flood plain anyway so the track was always going to be raised around there. And the use of slab track is not exactly extreme either. In all, areas that required sand mitigation were less than 10% of the route but the complained and whined and made it out to be the most extreme conditions.

If HOL wanted a difficult environment they should check out the North South Railway. Now that runs in a highly isolated area with a majority of the route in the Nafud, a great big sand desert with massive dunes. Far more difficult conditions than the HHSR.

And you know what? Construction has been smooth on the NSR. The various consortia (including Chinese BTW) building the different sections just got on with it. Large parts are complete and running and the whole project (which is larger than HHSR) is due to be complete before the first Haramain train service even runs.

Many (including myself) thought that the Sho'la consortium was the weakest and were surprised they won the concession. They've been showing how unproven their project execution capability ever since.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #216
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Well, I will not discuss opinions, and less in English. Delivery dates and his sources are in my post, that is undisputable.

When the Spanish-Saudi consortium signed the contract I knew I had delays in civil works, but I could hardly imagine that this would end in December 2015.
Asked if the arena is a serious problem or not, there are opinions, which have been built 69 km (stations appart) of slab track is a fact.

Anyway I know there are opposing views, I have already given my opinion and dates, I will not extend on the subject.
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Old August 30th, 2015, 04:42 PM   #217
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Quote:
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Many (including myself) thought that the Sho'la consortium was the weakest and were surprised they won the concession. They've been showing how unproven their project execution capability ever since.
That´s quite a clueless comment. If you think the french consortium, wich was the other group that was in the final negotiations could be half as flexible, well adapted to Saudi Arabia and goal oriented as the Spanish consortium you have a real misconception about construction companies, probably about many other things. The only companies that could actually ever compete with the Spanish consortium in Saudi Arabia are Korean companies, just the same that happens in the oil and gas.

I am Spanish, i have french citizenship, i am muslim and i lived in Saudi Arabia while doing a couple of oil and gas large projects, i know perfectly what i am talking about. Between Koreans and Spaniards price should make the difference, as simple as that.
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Old August 30th, 2015, 07:11 PM   #218
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I don't want to start any "flame wars" here, but just curious - why are Spanish and Korean construction companies so special for projects in Saudi Arabia? Obviously French and Chinese also have experience including abroad.

P.S. I have no professional experience with construction whatsoever and I've never been to Saudi Arabia
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Old August 30th, 2015, 08:06 PM   #219
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Just because a long time ago the rest of western companies are mainly working as PMT or equipment suplliers in the middle east and not as EPC main ciontractors. The salary of a Spanish or Korean engineer is reasonable and people are willing to relocate. Chinese companies are banned in lots of contracts.

Ryad metro, wich amounts for as much as the Mecca Medina HSL, has been awarded to Korean and Spanish consortiums also, regarding the EPC contracts, trains will be french.
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Old August 30th, 2015, 09:59 PM   #220
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Quote:
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Well, I will not discuss opinions, and less in English.
Gusiluz, I thought we were here, on this forum, to discuss opinions in English? 😄
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