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Old February 16th, 2015, 04:19 PM   #181
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Singapore

1953


now


1953


now
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Old February 16th, 2015, 04:25 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegentHouse View Post
Okay so it was built by a foreigner, but I still 100% disagree with your "simple" logic and I bet more people do than agree.
Willing to bet? You must be sure then. Start a thread and poll.
Put a picture of the White House.
The two options in the poll:

Architectural style:

1/ American.

or

2/ European Neo-Classical.

PM me to decide the amount of money you wish to lose/gamble. We will see if the thoughts in your head match what the majority of the people in this forum believe.I await your PM.

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Old February 17th, 2015, 07:21 AM   #183
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No I don't want to bet because, it's...

3/ All of the above.

I've said before that it is indeed European-derived architecture, but it's still American. If you disagree, give me examples of what you consider American architecture. If all you believe are indigenous, then give me some British architecture examples. Stonehenge?

The Normans came from present-day France, so does that mean their architecture in present-day England is French? What about anything Neoclassical? Is Neoclassical classified by European country anymore of a correct term than "American Neoclassical?" It's all Ancient Greek anyway.

If Buckingham Palace was built in France, it wouldn't be out of place at all. Hell, even Meiji-era Japanese European-style buildings are more Japanese than many Neoclassical buildings in their respective European countries because they incorporated their own elements. Otherwise, you might as well argue Japanese "traditional" architecture is inherently Chinese.

TD;LR Classic architecture is an international style, but eclecticism creates individual identity. At the end of the day, arguing cultural diffusion takes us nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
Actually most of what the Spliff fairy posted was pulled down socialist councils in the 50s and 60s.
Well the Nazis were socialists as well, and nobody would deny based on the Holocaust. Then again, the communists ethnically targeted and mass-murdered far more people.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 08:14 AM   #184
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Japanese government building, Seoul - demolished for its symbolic imperialism of Japan in 1995, its dome is preserved in museum. Not that i support imperialism, but architecture wise the building is worth of preservation because of its beauty.



Photo before demolition:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...uilding,_Seoul
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Old February 17th, 2015, 09:00 AM   #185
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Jakarta, Indonesia

Hotel Des Indes

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzix/2136633330


https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzix...57602234339339


https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzix/980103723

Today..


https://www.flickr.com/photos/nmaizir/956944785/

The Noordwijk canal of Batavia...

KLM Kantoor and Nederlands Handels-Maatschappij, Noordwijk, Weltevreden

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...r_60027961.jpg





Noordwijk (Jalan Juanda) today:


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/90506452
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Old February 17th, 2015, 10:53 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevo123 View Post
Japanese government building, Seoul - demolished for its symbolic imperialism of Japan in 1995, its dome is preserved in museum. Not that i support imperialism, but architecture wise the building is worth of preservation because of its beauty.
The Government-General Building was also the capitol until the mid-1970s, and later a museum. Where the former moved is hideous:


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Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Very German? Really can't say that. It looks rather Japanese to me in its modernist citations of East Asian styles.
Not really... Apart from the curving mansard roof, which is likely a coincidence anyway, it looks like every post-war modernist building constructed around the world that aged terribly.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 03:15 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by RegentHouse View Post
No I don't want to bet because, it's...

3/ All of the above.

I've said before that it is indeed European-derived architecture, but it's still American. If you disagree, give me examples of what you consider American architecture. If all you believe are indigenous, then give me some British architecture examples. Stonehenge?
I am afraid you are confusing who owns the property with the style in which it is built. It is a common mistake among pre-teens. The White House is not American architecture. It is European Neo Classical with Palladian elements drawn up by an Irishman. Even the Americans state this. Again, by making this a source of faux national pride, I believe you have confused yourself.

If you need American Architecture to exist, that being Architecture unique to America by definition, you can look at anything from Native American Tipis to the architecture of Modernist Frank Lloyd Wright.

Quote:
The Normans came from present-day France, so does that mean their architecture in present-day England is French?
The Normans were actually the very recent descendants of 'Norsemen' hence the name. They had direct Viking ancestry. To say they were 'from France' is rather simplistic given that a generation or two before they were pretty much Danish and the fact that they never referred to themselves as French.


Quote:
Well the Nazis were socialists as well,
Against, pseudo historical guess work I am afraid.

Despite what they called themselves, Nazis were most assuredly NOT socialists in the generally understood and accepted sense of the term only in the deranged minds of certain deluded individuals who have never read the literature or researched the party. Indeed, nazis spoke viciously against all leftist approaches, and banned the "Internationale" and even the signs and symbols of all the German proletarians and social democratic movements.

Nor did they much "control the economy", which is nothing to do with real socialism, anyway. And if you read Speer, in particular, you'll notice in detail how difficult it was even for him to get German industries to cooperate in the critical war effort.

So once again, you stated you were willing to bet because you feel most people would agree with you. I think it would be very cathartic for you to indeed put your money where you mouth is so you can learn you are not in the majority. PM me with the amount you wish to gamble, and we can start to come up with the terms of the question.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 03:45 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
If you need American Architecture to exist, that being Architecture unique to America by definition, you can look at anything from Native American Tipis to the architecture of Modernist Frank Lloyd Wright.
so Frank Lloyd is american architecture, but Oscar Niemeyer isn´t brazilian architecture?
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Old February 17th, 2015, 04:03 PM   #189
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Oscar Niemeyer is a Brazilian Modernist. Of course. He is definitely someone who can be used when discussing Brazilian architecture, just as Gaudi can be used when discussing Catala Modernista.

Don't make the mistake of many nationalists and feel you have to invent arguments for Brazilian national pride.

The original argument, if you actually care for what we are discussing..before you started trolling, is whether neo classical Rio - most of which was leveled, is Brazilian Architecture or European Neo-Classical in style. I believe it is European Neo Classical - there was nothing in it original to Brazil - it was clearly an off shoot to the colonists like the White House was in the USA.

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Old February 17th, 2015, 04:14 PM   #190
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in Porto Alegre

Mercado Livre, demolished for transit reasons (subway station, Perimetral Avenue construction)


in 1950s



in its place now



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this 50s building in Porto Alegre


was demolished in the end of the 60s for this


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Julio de Castilhos school... destroyed by fire. Ok, not a demolition, but I wonder why they didn´t even try rebuilding it


in it´s place now


https://goo.gl/maps/J1ZA2
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Old February 17th, 2015, 04:28 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
Oscar Niemeyer is a Brazilian Modernist
I am not asking if he is a brazilian or a modernist. I am asking if his ARCHITECTURE can be considered brazilian, just like you said Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture is american.

Where modernist architecture orginated? Or was it truly international?

If you consider an architecture to being exclusively from the place where it was originated, then several modernist works, from famous architects from somewhere else, should not be considered "x country architecture".

But if you consider modernism as being international for it was developed by several international architects in several different places at the same time, why don´t you do the same for some of that architecture that you call "european"? Well, you clearly already consider it "international" when you call it european (after all, Europe is made of several different countries).

However, most of those styles are from the 19th century, late 19th century, even early 20th. When both USA and Brazil already existed. So it seems you are 100% sure that no brazilian or american or argentine architect ever contributed to the development of those styles, even though their origin was in Europe. (but again, wasn´t the ORIGIN of modernism in a single country?)

Many of those buildings you call "european" are not "Victorian", but ART NOUVEAU, which was quite an international developed style (so much that it has different names in other countries) and it diffused through Europe, USA and yes, even Brazil, with a difference of less than 10 years, which is not much in architectural terms, because of the time it took to build a single big building.




And please, you called Regent House a pre-teen, but you are the one acting immature here, dismissing other's arguments as pre-teen, as nationalistic, etc.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 04:31 PM   #192
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Many streets in Porto Alegre remind me a lot of BH.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
I am not asking if he is a brazilian or a modernist. I am asking if his ARCHITECTURE can be considered brazilian, just like you said Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture is american.
Apologies, but I stopped reading here, not because of your aggressive nationalistic rant was boring and you are once again trolling a topic, just because I have already covered the ground. I will repeat. He can be discussed in the context of Brazilian architecture and in fact he is an important figure in modernist architecture. That is how the academic side of architecture works. He was a Brazilian Modernist. Did he invent modernism? Nope. Is he Brazilian? Yes. Can his architecture be seen as Brazilian, yes it can. SO I know you need me to say he is not representative of Brazilian architecture to help you out with your regent house argument, but I am afraid I can't. Again.. lol, I repeat, his buildings are modernist, but also inventive and distinct enough to be identified individually unlike the Rio buildings. It is not complicated, only if you are emotional.

Victorianism is a tiny part of Neo classism and to attempt to introduce it in the context of Brazilian neo classical is rather desperate and shows a lack of understanding to what Neo Classicism is. Again, it is a word you brought in to the debate and assigned to me. I understand Brazil is full of this tactic in PT politics, but Europeans don't like words associated with them that they did not utter. Neo classical Rio, not what was put up before or after..is European Neo Classicism and pretty standard stuff. No one educated will single it out as separate from the standard European Neo Classicism other than it being in Brazil unless they have an inferiority complex or excessive national pride. You can find virtually identical buildings from Hungary to Porto which are older.

The thread however - which you are not on topic about, is about how sad it was that it was reduced to ruble. I think it looked good.

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Old February 17th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #194
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lol, this is agressive nationalistic ranting?

Quote:
Where modernist architecture orginated? Or was it truly international?

If you consider an architecture to being exclusively from the place where it was originated, then several modernist works, from famous architects from somewhere else, should not be considered "x country architecture".

But if you consider modernism as being international for it was developed by several international architects in several different places at the same time, why don´t you do the same for some of that architecture that you call "european"? Well, you clearly already consider it "international" when you call it european (after all, Europe is made of several different countries).

However, most of those styles are from the 19th century, late 19th century, even early 20th. When both USA and Brazil already existed. So it seems you are 100% sure that no brazilian or american or argentine architect ever contributed to the development of those styles, even though their origin was in Europe. (but again, wasn´t the ORIGIN of modernism in a single country?)

Many of those buildings you call "european" are not "Victorian", but ART NOUVEAU, which was quite an international developed style (so much that it has different names in other countries) and it diffused through Europe, USA and yes, even Brazil, with a difference of less than 10 years, which is not much in architectural terms, because of the time it took to build a single big building.
sir, you are a troll. Reported.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 05:35 PM   #195
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De Utrecht, survived the German bombing, demolished in the 1970s, designed by P. Buskens, the architect behind the Atlantic House.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 05:43 PM   #196
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lol, this is agressive nationalistic ranting?
sir, you are a troll. Reported.
It is nationalistic because instead of researching what Neo Classicism is, you decided to make it about Brazil, like you usually do and then tried to report posts to close down the debate. There was no reason to troll for Brazil, but you felt the need as usual.

You state Argentine and Brazilian contributed to neo classicism. As far as the world of architecture goes, they didn't in any significant way. Neo Classicism, if you studied it even lightly, is from Europe and was championed in the renaissance in Europe. The style it copied was ancient Greek with Roman elements. There are various styles of Neo Classical, Palladian etc... nothing new was added however by Argentina or Brazil - hence trying to force that the opposite is true is trolling and highly nationalistic on a thread dedicated not to Brazilian nationalism, we have many of those, but on global demolitions of buildings that should have never been destroyed.

As for modernism, again - not very complicated. Modernism is an international style that developed far far later when the world was already developed thus allowing many significant variations from many different architects from different nations. This is again documented.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 05:48 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
I am afraid you are confusing who owns the property with the style in which it is built. It is a common mistake among pre-teens. The White House is not American architecture. It is European Neo Classical with Palladian elements drawn up by an Irishman. Even the Americans state this. Again, by making this a source of faux national pride, I believe you have confused yourself.

If you need American Architecture to exist, that being Architecture unique to America by definition, you can look at anything from Native American Tipis to the architecture of Modernist Frank Lloyd Wright.
Frank Lloyd Wrights architecture is heavily inspired from the British Arts and Crafts movement, and even Japanese. Please tell me how is this American according to your logic? Or are you going call me a pre-teen again and begin to talk about my mother?

Quote:
The Normans were actually the very recent descendants of 'Norsemen' hence the name. They had direct Viking ancestry. To say they were 'from France' is rather simplistic given that a generation or two before they were pretty much Danish and the fact that they never referred to themselves as French.
Quote:
Against, pseudo historical guess work I am afraid.

Despite what they called themselves, Nazis were most assuredly NOT socialists in the generally understood and accepted sense of the term only in the deranged minds of certain deluded individuals who have never read the literature or researched the party. Indeed, nazis spoke viciously against all leftist approaches, and banned the "Internationale" and even the signs and symbols of all the German proletarians and social democratic movements.

Nor did they much "control the economy", which is nothing to do with real socialism, anyway. And if you read Speer, in particular, you'll notice in detail how difficult it was even for him to get German industries to cooperate in the critical war effort.

So once again, you stated you were willing to bet because you feel most people would agree with you. I think it would be very cathartic for you to indeed put your money where you mouth is so you can learn you are not in the majority. PM me with the amount you wish to gamble, and we can start to come up with the terms of the question.
The fact that you post is composed mostly of this rather than my arguing my contentions shows you're really beating around the bush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
Apologies, but I stopped reading here, not because of your aggressive nationalistic rant was boring and you are once again trolling a topic, just because I have already covered the ground. I will repeat. He can be discussed in the context of Brazilian architecture and in fact he is an important figure in modernist architecture. That is how the academic side of architecture works. He was a Brazilian Modernist. Did he invent modernism? Nope. Is he Brazilian? Yes. Can his architecture be seen as Brazilian, yes it can. SO I know you need me to say he is not representative of Brazilian architecture to help you out with your regent house argument, but I am afraid I can't. Again.. lol, I repeat, his buildings are modernist, but also inventive and distinct enough to be identified individually unlike the Rio buildings. It is not complicated, only if you are emotional.
Double standard much? How is Niemeyer's architecture considering Brazillian according to your nativist logic? Let me guess, you think the United Nations General Assembly Building is American architecture despite being designed by him, a Brazilian-German. As people have said before not including me, modernism is European as well.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 06:01 PM   #198
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Frank Lloyd Wrights architecture is heavily inspired from the British Arts and Crafts movement, and even Japanese. Please tell me how is this American according to your logic?
It is American modernism, not according to me, but to the world I am afraid. Modernism is a very international style heavily borrowed upon consecutively.


Quote:
The fact that you post is composed mostly of this rather than my arguing my contentions shows you're really beating around the bush.
Nazis being socialists... Normans.. this is all your troll, not mine. It has no place in this thread. However since you brought in the Nazis, I informed you that you were wrong to call them socialists. You didn't take it well.




Quote:
Double standard much? How is Niemeyer's architecture considering Brazillian according to your nativist logic? Let me guess, you think the United Nations General Assembly Building is American architecture despite being designed by him, a Brazilian-German. As people have said before not including me, modernism is European as well.
Troll much? Niemeyer's architecture is significantly different for it stand out. Therefore he became famous - not because his modernism was lost in all the modernism around him, but in that it was distinct. There are books on why - I wont bore you with them as you didn't take to discovering the Nazis were not socialists too well..

ON is a Brazilian modernist. That is how he will be remembered unlike most of the architects who copied European Neo Classical buildings who are correctly lost to history. The idea that modernism belongs to one country or continent again was nothing to do with me but you and Aces, I find the idea that an international style like modernism - so loosely defined anyway, can be attributed in origin to one nation - absurd. That is why I was not the one to mention it... rather you and Aces.. However Brazilian Modernists do exist. Any decent university would teach you this.. Perhaps a good place to start would be here:



http://architizer.com/blog/oscar-nie...zil-modernism/
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Old February 17th, 2015, 06:36 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
It is nationalistic because instead of researching what Neo Classicism is, you decided to make it about Brazil
this is not about Brazil. Is about the whole Americas and architecture in general.


Quote:
like you usually do and then tried to report posts to close down the debate. There was no reason to troll for Brazil, but you felt the need as usual.
I reported your posts because instead of focusing on the subject, you FIRST started going ad hominem, calling people with different opinions as pre teens, saying I am trolling when YOU are the clear troll, calling a well argued post as "nationalistic ranting" instead of debating the points I made.

THAT is trolling.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 06:39 PM   #200
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and btw, you accuse me of getting off-topic when it was YOU who got off-topic with this crap?
Quote:
Well, that street was constructed when Brazil was still ruled by a monarchy. Also the Portuguese monarchy resided for a while in Rio, so this architecture represents that Europeanism, wealth and enlightenment. To be honest, even a European nation would be jealous of how Rio presented itself back then. Such a beautiful fusion of styles.

However that is long in the past. Brazil is more an African/mixed black country demographically and culturally now rather than a former European colonial gem. The destruction of Rio represents that. The crap they built in Rio the last 60 years is what any rich and ambitious African country would be proud of.

Here are some former Portuguese colonies in Africa, pretty much the same happened there, these pictures could be Brazil, but they are Maputo and Luanda:
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