daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture

Architecture news and discussions on all buildings types and urban spaces
» Classic Architecture | European Classic Architecture and Landscapes | Public Space | Shopping Architecture | Design & Lifestyle | Urban Renewal and Redevelopment



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 15th, 2015, 02:47 AM   #301
Reality7
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: London
Posts: 819
Likes (Received): 1493

True, but no human with knowledge of European architecture would say that the street in question has too much ornamentation to be European. Avenida Rio Branco fits in seamlessly to the European model of the era. I repeat, this person's knowledge of European architecture suggests he is not European.
__________________

Last edited by Reality7; July 15th, 2015 at 02:53 AM.
Reality7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 15th, 2015, 02:50 AM   #302
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,819
Likes (Received): 15123

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
He is European, but he is very well known in this forum for his radical views and his hate for ornamentation and generally everything old. There's really no use discussing this with him.
Suburbanist is Brazilian. From SÔo Paulo.

Brazil has Niemeyer-itis.

But I for one can appreciate more the current Avenida Rio Branco than the old one. Don't ask me why is it, because usually it's the other way around.

After all, Rio still has other old quarters, Brazil has historical towns, and this is SSC.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat Imputados en Tarragona
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)

Zaz965, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2015, 02:55 AM   #303
Reality7
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: London
Posts: 819
Likes (Received): 1493

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Suburbanist is Brazilian. From SÔo Paulo.

Brazil has Niemeyer-itis.
Perhaps in some aspects but Avenida Rio Branco has nothing to do with Niemeyer. Would be nice if it did.. Niemeyer is infinitely better than the soulless brutalism of Rio Avenida Branco.

Here is a Niemeyer block:

__________________
Reality7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2015, 05:24 AM   #304
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,448
Likes (Received): 21119

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
True, but no human with knowledge of European architecture would say that the street in question has too much ornamentation to be European. Avenida Rio Branco fits in seamlessly to the European model of the era. I repeat, this person's knowledge of European architecture suggests he is not European.
Let me elaborate it better.

European architecture has moved through times of enlightenment and cumulative progress, but it had some lulls when it stopped reviving ghosts from the past without adding much things new.

Such is the case with the generally excessive ornamentation of late neoclassical buildings, at a time when the style was mostly exhausted and in need of replacement (which came in the form or art deco, art noveau, which somtimes were still excessive on detail (art noveau in particular), but were still conceiving some new interpretations instead of 'manufacture as much adorns and ornaments as possible').

----------

Just to make it clear: my general view is that the introduction of TV, video, computers and other visual stimulation increasingly and evermore present on city life rendered the need for detailed intricacies on buildings obsolete in the same way photography rendered painting mostly obsolete as a life staple. We have plenty of visual inputs to entertain ourselves in infinitely better ways than visual cues on street fašades.

To make an analogy, we should for sure preserve great painters' works, and the occasional good painting still comes around, but most painted stuff from mid/late 19th Century is mundane and have been lost/disposed of (such as family portraits and what else). For the same reasons, most neoclassical buildings are non-descriptive and have no inherent distinctiveness other than being old, and have obsolete forms (the ornaments), reason for which a Mies van der Rohe, for whom less was more, is a remarkable improvement over the old building. And the nondescript modernist buildings in Rio de Janeiro are at least a temporal improvement over the nondescript neoclassical ones.

-----------------------

I also think many people "hate" brutalist buildings not because of their style, but because of their timing.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2015, 10:34 AM   #305
Tiaren
Registered User
 
Tiaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,702
Likes (Received): 5551

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Suburbanist is Brazilian. From SÔo Paulo.
I could have sworn he was from the Netherlands...

He once also made the point, that every building should be torn down after 20 years.
__________________
Tiaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2015, 11:57 AM   #306
Roman_P
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,619
Likes (Received): 1786

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The demolished building(s) had too much ornament and visual confusion brought by the excesses of late 19th Century/early 20th Century revived styles.
This description might fit to some of the buildings on Rio-Bravo avenue but two other buildings (from Tokyo and Chicago) have very little to do with it. Of course many of late 19th century buildings were excessive in ornamention but these particular two ones are certainly not. I'd even say they are quite modest for their time. So even if your statement has some point, you've chosen bad examples to prove it.

Quote:
Too much detail on fašades, too many elements clogging the view of a bystander from a distance. Their replacements have clean lines and are de-cluttered.
OK, over-decorated buildings may clog the view of a bystander from a distance (although it's more a matter of shape and proportions than of decoration). But these clean and plain masses in their turn might look imposing from a distance but fail in a closer viewing. They have nothing to deliver for a person who's just passing-by, not looking at them from an airplane or some distant point of view. This kind of excludes these buildings from a city pattern and makes them, well, unfriendly.
__________________

Zaz965, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Roman_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2015, 12:03 PM   #307
Roman_P
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,619
Likes (Received): 1786

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The buildings in Rio were cheapskate copies of European styles already in decline at time of construction, badly executed (too much ornaments, for instance). They kinda deserved to see the wrecking ball for their architectural low relevance and for posing an impediment on progress and expansion of office footage in downtown Rio.
So was the style of replacement buildings invented in Brazil? Were Mies van der Rohe and Corbusier Brazilians? If not wasn't it then just a replacement of one kind of cheapskate copies of European styles by another kind of cheapskate copies?
__________________
Roman_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2015, 01:32 PM   #308
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,448
Likes (Received): 21119

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
I could have sworn he was from the Netherlands...

He once also made the point, that every building should be torn down after 20 years.
I've been living in the Netherlands for several years, and contrary to what 407.001 said, I never lived permanently in SŃo Paulo. But that is beside the point.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2015, 01:00 PM   #309
RegentHouse
City Development Shitlord
 
RegentHouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,216
Likes (Received): 771

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In all honesty, in these three cases the replacement building(s) was(ere) improvements over what existed before. The demolished building(s) had too much ornament and visual confusion brought by the excesses of late 19th Century/early 20th Century revived styles. Too much detail on fašades, too many elements clogging the view of a bystander from a distance. Their replacements have clean lines and are de-cluttered.
Where do you live? I'm not asking for your national heritage like some people have been speculating, as I speculate you're some proponent of a one world government who defies multiple allegiance. Rather, I'm asking if you live a cardboard box in Brasilia or Tel Aviv so you can be in a "de-cluttered" environment full of "clean lines?"
__________________
RegentHouse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2015, 09:12 PM   #310
Photodash
Registered User
 
Photodash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 103
Likes (Received): 256

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality7 View Post
Avenida Rio Branco would have happily sat in any European important city and what is more, it would be a great source of pride. Well built, stunning eclectic mix of styles. Real architectural heritage and eye candy:



At least this theatre, which somewhat resembles the Paris Opera House, is apparently still there...


http://www.worldtoptop.com/rio-de-janeiro-theatre/
__________________
Photodash no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #311
@b1
Registered User
 
@b1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,443
Likes (Received): 101

One of the worst historic site demolition in Malaysia

Bujang Valley Temple, one of the thousand years old ancient hindu temple in Malaysia, was secretly demolished by developer in 2013.

Before


After


News about it
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/ma...vely-destroyed
__________________
You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
@b1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2015, 07:18 AM   #312
@b1
Registered User
 
@b1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,443
Likes (Received): 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevo123 View Post
Medan, Indonesia...

once a laidback peaceful city, today its a horrendous traffic infested city with horrible ugly buildings.... there's still many old buildings that stand but many also has become a victim of modernization that ruins the cityscape even further...

[IMG]http://oi39.************/2ew1mk1.jpg[/IMG]
http://************/view.php?pic=2ew...5#.U-2WlOOSxrk

For example how this historical colonial architecture that dates back to the 1930s:


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/31938695

is turned into this (on the left):
image hosted on flickr
I think this is different angle.

The old building above was renovated and a highrise addition addded to it. But several architectural elements like the ornament was removed and the arch balcony was closed by wall.



But yes, I think Medan is worst enough to lose some of its heritage. 180 of 600 old buildings has been demolished for this two decades. Hopefully Medan will not end enough like Hong Kong. Most of the colonial marvels in Hong Kong has been demolished, especially in Queens Road, and turn into modern highrises. Only few heritage buildings remains in Hong Kong downtown.
__________________
You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Zaz965 liked this post
@b1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 6th, 2015, 12:00 PM   #313
Svetoslav Suronja
Velcro-what a rip-off!
 
Svetoslav Suronja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Agram
Posts: 7,175
Likes (Received): 18807

A few moronic ones in my city, all in a 250m circle

Feller House

Before


After


Sticks out like a sore thumb, especially with that huge "P" ad on its roof


Pongratz Palace




TBH, this one is not QUITE so bad but still

Gavella House
(in the middle)




It's the one on the left, you can see that they basically stripped her bare

Thankfully it has been restored


And of course the Cathedral of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary with the defensive walls intact




Looks like this now


I guess we have to count our blessings cause they didn't destroy all the walls
__________________
On dit quelquefois: "Le sens commun est fort rare"

Last edited by Svetoslav Suronja; August 6th, 2015 at 07:44 PM.
Svetoslav Suronja no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 6th, 2015, 10:28 PM   #314
Photodash
Registered User
 
Photodash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 103
Likes (Received): 256

Not sure the demolition of that wall is so lamentable, as it opens up a view of the cathedral facade, and there are plenty of surviving towers.

Speaking of fortresses and religious sites,
The Aiyad fortresss, Mecca has also been demolished as of 2002.


This made way for this under-stated construction:


(images from Wikipedia)
__________________
Photodash no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 7th, 2015, 11:01 AM   #315
Roman_P
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,619
Likes (Received): 1786

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svetoslav Suronja View Post
A few moronic ones in my city, all in a 250m circle

Feller House

Before


After

Looks like it wasn't completely demolished but heavily rebuilt (especially the corner part). So it makes the building more possible to be restored like the other one from your post.
__________________

The Caspian, Zaz965 liked this post
Roman_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 7th, 2015, 11:55 AM   #316
Svetoslav Suronja
Velcro-what a rip-off!
 
Svetoslav Suronja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Agram
Posts: 7,175
Likes (Received): 18807

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photodash View Post
Not sure the demolition of that wall is so lamentable, as it opens up a view of the cathedral facade, and there are plenty of surviving towers.

Speaking of fortresses and religious sites,
The Aiyad fortresss, Mecca has also been demolished as of 2002.


This made way for this under-stated construction:


(images from Wikipedia)
Well the walls and the towers od the cathedral made a compact whole and it would be one of the few surviving examples (on that scale) in Europe if it remained so. I remember seeing something similar in Malta, but that's about it...





As for Medina, I've seen the pictures but I didn't know they demolished an old fortress to build that...quaint construction. Yeah, let's go with quaint..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_P View Post
Looks like it wasn't completely demolished but heavily rebuilt (especially the corner part). So it makes the building more possible to be restored like the other one from your post.
I am not exactly sure if they demolished it to the ground and then built it up to approximate the previous building plan or they just stripped down the facade. All in all, this "new" iteration is NOT an improvement..
__________________
On dit quelquefois: "Le sens commun est fort rare"

The Caspian, Zaz965 liked this post
Svetoslav Suronja no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2015, 07:49 PM   #317
Rev Stickleback
Registered User
 
Rev Stickleback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,107
Likes (Received): 1925

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Just to make it clear: my general view is that the introduction of TV, video, computers and other visual stimulation increasingly and evermore present on city life rendered the need for detailed intricacies on buildings obsolete in the same way photography rendered painting mostly obsolete as a life staple.
that's a bit like saying you might as well have an ugly wife, because it's so easy to see attractive women in online porn these days.

It's a ridiculous idea. It's what people live with all their lives that's important, and where visual stimulation, along with stimulation of an living environment rather than an architect's minimalist idealism, is important.



Quote:
To make an analogy, we should for sure preserve great painters' works, and the occasional good painting still comes around, but most painted stuff from mid/late 19th Century is mundane and have been lost/disposed of (such as family portraits and what else).
People have family photos now, not because they are put off the portrait style, but because it's much quicker to take a photo than it is to commission and artist to paint a picture.

Quote:
For the same reasons, most neoclassical buildings are non-descriptive and have no inherent distinctiveness other than being old, and have obsolete forms (the ornaments), reason for which a Mies van der Rohe, for whom less was more, is a remarkable improvement over the old building.
It's a remarkable achievement if your goal is to strip a building down and remove all decoration, to make a statement. By what other measure is it an improvement?

Quote:
And the nondescript modernist buildings in Rio de Janeiro are at least a temporal improvement over the nondescript neoclassical ones.
Except they aren't. The modern Rio buildings are generally ugly and mundane. There's a reason why the old Avenida Rio Branco was considered picturesque, and the modern day one isn't.

Quote:
I also think many people "hate" brutalist buildings not because of their style, but because of their timing.
I think many hate them because they often replaced something much better, but also because of their total lack of sympathy with their surroundings.

Some modern buildings are brilliant, but the best ones work because they have style - a flair that rather than make them being all about function, are there to be admired. They've achieved their beauty, not with ornament, but with their style, but the critical thing is that they've tried to achieve beauty. They were designed to be visually interesting.
Rev Stickleback no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #318
kevo123
Indonesia
 
kevo123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Bali
Posts: 7,079
Likes (Received): 21216

Quote:
Originally Posted by @b1 View Post
I think this is different angle.

The old building above was renovated and a highrise addition addded to it. But several architectural elements like the ornament was removed and the arch balcony was closed by wall.

But yes, I think Medan is worst enough to lose some of its heritage. 180 of 600 old buildings has been demolished for this two decades. Hopefully Medan will not end enough like Hong Kong. Most of the colonial marvels in Hong Kong has been demolished, especially in Queens Road, and turn into modern highrises. Only few heritage buildings remains in Hong Kong downtown.
In HK they replaced it with skyscrapers, in Medan they turned these wonderful old buildings into "Ruko" (which actually mean shophouses, brutal and ugly modern crap with no appeal whatsoever). Like much of the Chinatown of Jakarta, it have turned from a tropical version of China into ugly... even the Dutch colonial homes of Bandung and Jakarta are rapidly diminishing... if not for the recent increasing awareness of these old heritage, i would say they would definitely disappear..

Medan actually have collections of the finest Dutch colonial office buildings, with styles that is different from those you saw in major cities of Java.. you will not find the likes of AVROS gebouw or Medan Postkantoor anywhere else in the country.:


Unlike most other colonial cities in the country, Medan is relatively young and only gets big quiet "recently". It was planned according to 20th century town planning, with architecture that represent the mood of architectural experiment, art deco (in a sense it is similar to Bandung). atleast the best of them atleast didn't get demolished. I wish they could've done something to revive Kesawan Square, but not turn it into another "Kota Tua" which is a total overcrowded disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @b1 View Post
One of the worst historic site demolition in Malaysia

Bujang Valley Temple, one of the thousand years old ancient hindu temple in Malaysia, was secretly demolished by developer in 2013.

News about it
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/ma...vely-destroyed
Well the site was actually quiet recently rebuilt, but still its quiet a dissapointment.
__________________
Pictures of Indonesia || The beauty of Java, Bali and Lombok || Jakarta || Surabaya || Bandung || Medan || Yogyakarta || Semarang || Bali || Lombok ||

Architecture of Indonesia || Vernacular Architecture of Indonesia || Dutch Tropical Colonial Architecture of Indonesia ||

djole13, Zaz965 liked this post
kevo123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2015, 07:12 PM   #319
Brazilian001
carioca
 
Brazilian001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Posts: 35,038
Likes (Received): 31329

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photodash View Post
At least this theatre, which somewhat resembles the Paris Opera House, is apparently still there...


And so are the other two buildings on the right of the theatre:

National Library



National Museum of Fine Arts



Municipal Theatre

__________________

Last edited by Brazilian001; August 12th, 2015 at 07:23 PM.
Brazilian001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2015, 08:42 PM   #320
Brucey7
Registered User
 
Brucey7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 179

Not strictly belonging in this thread as not actually demolished yet, but soon to be without drastic campaigning. Much of Liverpool's Lime Street faces demolition, with the loss of some real architectural gems, littered with historical importance. The replacement is bland, insensitive dross.

This CAN be stopped. Save Britain's Heritage has started a petition to have the odious (literally and metaphorically) decision to be called in to the Secretary of State. If you doubt the power of public campaigning and petitioning - just looked at the Kings College Strand redevelopment thread which was stopped in its tracks.

If you doubt the significance of this, Liverpool's World Heritage status is in the balance should this redevelopment go ahead.

Here is the petition: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...r-share-button
__________________
Is it not cruel to let our city die by degrees, stripped of all her proud monuments, until there will be nothing left of all her history and beauty to inspire our children? If they are not inspired by the past of our city, where will they find the strength to fight for her future? Americans care about their past, but for short term gain they ignore it and tear down everything that matters... This is the time to take a stand, to reverse the tide, so that we won't all end up in a uniform world of steel and glass boxes.

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis
Brucey7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu