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Old May 2nd, 2006, 01:46 AM   #141
KGB
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"You know what is truely nasty, it is to overly care about someone else."


Ok...let me roll that one around my head for a while (anybody got a joint, cause I think I'm gonna need one).






"Forcing others to be democratic certainly is not the true meaning of democracy."


That's right up their in the logic department with how people claim being against bigotry, is itself a form of bigotry...against bigots.

You have certainly mastered the art of ripping logic apart.






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Old May 2nd, 2006, 01:52 AM   #142
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Why does it always turn to be a hard discussion of democracy every time I see in a thread about China?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 02:04 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger
Why does it always turn to be a hard discussion of democracy every time I see in a thread about China?
because they are jealous of china's rapid achievement.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 02:17 AM   #144
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regarding KGB's original comment on "freedom of speech technology".

the improvement is being made, i know it because i can feel it. I can criticize government's wrongdoings without any fear, I can voice out my concerns without any fear. Many Chinese are can and do think independently and dont believe whatever government tells them. Media is also increasingly more critical of government's actions and Chinese are largely aware (if they read news and watch TV) of some bad events happening in the country. sure it's not 100% freedom of speech but does any country have 100% freedom of speech?

i am willing to discuss further with you, but if you fail to overcome your own perception which is obviously wrong, then my effort will be uesless.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 03:37 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
because they are jealous of china's rapid achievement.
very true, that explains Russia's bankrupt.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 03:43 AM   #146
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Right we are SOOOOOO jealous that you see Westerners clamoring down the wall of China setting up fast food places, selling things on the subways of Beijing, and offering massages on the beaches of China.

In fact, we are also setting up AmericaTowns all over China because of the huge American immigrant community in China.

Oh wait............

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Old May 2nd, 2006, 03:43 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
i am willing to discuss further with you, but if you fail to overcome your own perception which is obviously wrong, then my effort will be uesless.
Don't be fooled by KGB's effort to pretend to be kind, he is just one of the many guys to pray for China's collpase every day.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 03:53 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
Don't be fooled by KGB's effort to pretend to be kind, he is just one of the many guys to pray for China's collpase every day.
I dont really care either way, what other people wish for China is the least of my concern.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 03:56 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Right we are SOOOOOO jealous that you see Westerners clamoring down the wall of China setting up fast food places, selling things on the subways of Beijing, and offering massages on the beaches of China.

In fact, we are also setting up AmericaTowns all over China because of the huge American immigrant community in China.

Oh wait............

to give you an analogy, i may not be jealous of a 80 year old dying billionare but i could be jealous of a smart, aspiring 22 year old who just graduated from college.

sometimes it's not what you already have, it's the potential.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:00 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Right we are SOOOOOO jealous that you see Westerners clamoring down the wall of China setting up fast food places
wow, i didn't know all the kfcs, mccdonalds, starbuckses, walmarts, carrefours
and ikeas all over china were actually owned by chinese businesses ... oh, they
aren't, so what the **** are they doing in china?

and how does setting up restaurants in a foreign country have anything to do
with being jealous? how exactly does your logic work?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:03 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
"You know what is truely nasty, it is to overly care about someone else."

Ok...let me roll that one around my head for a while (anybody got a joint, cause I think I'm gonna need one).

"Forcing others to be democratic certainly is not the true meaning of democracy."


That's right up their in the logic department with how people claim being against bigotry, is itself a form of bigotry...against bigots.

You have certainly mastered the art of ripping logic apart.

KGB
you know you are arguing against a troll when he offers nothing but random
insults in his reply.

oh, so being against bigotry is another sort of bigtory? man, i guess protecting
yourself against criminals is also a crime since you are making it harder for the
criminals to get what they want ... fantastic logic ... not.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:04 AM   #152
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Ok...so let me get this straight....I'm supposedly sitting here in Toronto, where chinese are lined up years in waiting to immigrate to, jealous of the people in China, and pray for China's destruction on some kind of daily basis because I cannot bare this jealousy???

You seriously believe this theory of yours?






"sure it's not 100% freedom of speech but does any country have 100% freedom of speech?

Oh...and Canada and China are really not appreciatively different in this regard?


Please....someone's perception is scewed here....but I don't think it's mine.







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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:13 AM   #153
Sen
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Quote:
Ok...so let me get this straight....
you should.

Quote:
I'm supposedly sitting here in Toronto, where chinese are lined up years in waiting to immigrate to,
people immigrate for a lot of reasons, "breath the air of freedom" is the last thing on a lot of people's minds.

Quote:
Please....someone's perception is scewed here....but I don't think it's mine.
i have lived in both countries, i think i have a more unbiased perception.
Quote:
Oh...and Canada and China are really not appreciatively different in this regard?
it's all relative. there is no absolute freedom of speech in canada, or in any country for that matter.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:15 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
i have lived in both countries, i think i have a more unbiased perception.


it's all relative. there is no absolute freedom of speech in canada, or in any country for that matter.
If you have lived in both, why praetell are you in one and not the other?

And regarding the freedom of speech argument:

You can maybe, MAYBE get me to agree that the current Communist leadership is better for China and the world than an unstable giant with too weak of a democracy to not erupt into violence.

MAYBE.

But to say that China and Canada are comparable in their limitation of freedom of speech, I say that is a pile of steaming shit.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:20 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
Don't be fooled by KGB's effort to pretend to be kind, he is just one of the many guys to pray for China's collpase every day.
yeah no doubt.
hes the same way with dubai.

its fine if he has a personal agenda against places... but he shouldnt have to resort to pretending to care about human rights to bash countries.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:21 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
yeah no doubt.
hes the same way with dubai.

its fine if he has a personal agenda against places... but he shouldnt have to resort to pretending to care about human rights to bash countries.
Don't worry. Canadians have a knack for telling the world how to be such upstanding moral pillars like the Great North.

They almost get preachier than Americans!



I still don't get the need for some people to bash Dubai here. Although I must say the new replica project is lamentable.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:22 AM   #157
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Quote:
If you have lived in both, why praetell are you in one and not the other?
my english is not good, what does praetell mean?
Quote:
You can maybe, MAYBE get me to agree that the current Communist leadership is better for China and the world than an unstable giant with too weak of a democracy to not erupt into violence.
absolutely.

Quote:
But to say that China and Canada are comparable in their limitation of freedom of speech, I say that is a pile of steaming shit.
for ME i dont see the difference, i am sure for SOME people it's different. but i am not type of the loser who blames government for all my problems.

but that was not the point i was making, i was stressing that it doesnt matter which country has more freedom of speech, it's all relative. Singapore has considerable less freedom of speech than Canada? does that mean Singapore is worse than Canada? no, IMO singapore is more successful than Canada in everyway.

unlike typical ignorant westerner, i judge a nation by many factors, not just my own perception, or something as abstract as freedom of speech,
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:22 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
Ok...so let me get this straight....I'm supposedly sitting here in Toronto, where chinese are lined up years in waiting to immigrate to, jealous of the people in China, and pray for China's destruction on some kind of daily basis because I cannot bare this jealousy???
You seriously believe this theory of yours?
There are many India people in not-yet-democratic HK, but not vice versa. I wonder why.

I am sure if Canada is a poor democratic country, then you won't see too much immigration, chinese or not.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:30 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
There are many India people in not-yet-democratic HK, but not vice versa. I wonder why.

I am sure if Canada is a poor democratic country, then you won't see too much immigration, chinese or not.
trust me most chinese dont immigrate to canada because of eocnomic reason either (some are, but most are educated professionals who already have very high salaries in china.

a lot of people come to canada so their sons and daughters can get a better education, in china it's hard to get into colleges...never mind the good ones. here even a dumb**** like me get into finest instituions in Canada with relative ease.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:32 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
There are many India people in not-yet-democratic HK, but not vice versa. I wonder why.

I am sure if Canada is a poor democratic country, then you won't see too much immigration, chinese or not.
Another very valid point.

Yet you have to admit the jealousy argument is a wee bit extreme. I see very little for Canada to be jealous about aside from length of history. Economically, Canada has no reason whatsoever being jealous of a country on the lower end of the production market. This is just reality.

There are poor democracies, to be sure. But to my knowledge there are no rich states that can be called authoritarian. And, the developed world is almos exclusively democratic. So I think that this points to the revelation that at some point (preferably sooner than later) China NEEDS to democratize.

But only democratize from within. Anything external (*cough*Iraq *cough*) has already proved to be impossible. One thing pissing of a country of 30 million, quite another pissing off 1/5 of humanity.

Like you guys have been saying, eventually China will. Just as South Korea and even Hong Kong were not technically democratic when they started, with wealth came democracy. I hope the same happens with China.
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