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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:34 AM   #161
Sen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Another very valid point.

Yet you have to admit the jealousy argument is a wee bit extreme. I see very little for Canada to be jealous about aside from length of history. Economically, Canada has no reason whatsoever being jealous of a country on the lower end of the production market. This is just reality.

There are poor democracies, to be sure. But to my knowledge there are no rich states that can be called authoritarian. And, the developed world is almos exclusively democratic. So I think that this points to the revelation that at some point (preferably sooner than later) China NEEDS to democratize.

But only democratize from within. Anything external (*cough*Iraq *cough*) has already proved to be impossible. One thing pissing of a country of 30 million, quite another pissing off 1/5 of humanity.

Like you guys have been saying, eventually China will. Just as South Korea and even Hong Kong were not technically democratic when they started, with wealth came democracy. I hope the same happens with China.
did you read my analogy?

i could be jealous of India, even though China is many times richer than India.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:34 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
trust me most chinese dont immigrate to canada because of eocnomic reason either (some are, but most are educated professionals who already have very high salaries in china.
That is about as false as saying that most come because they want freedom of expression.

Most come here for economic reasons. There is no denying this.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:35 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
did you read my analogy?

i could be jealous of India, even though China is many times richer than India.
I did. And it does not make sense.

When was the last time someone starving in the gutter was the subject of envy of a guy driving by in the limo.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:36 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
China needs to work on some freedom of speech technology, before it tries to impress the world with something like maglev technology.

Some pretty lop-sided priorities over there. Maglev trains and many people with no flush toilets...make sense to you?






KGB
Chinese gov't is still a dictatorship in case you don't know. Thus gov't places significant constraints on freedom of speech.
In fact I'd argue that working on complete freedom of speech is not the right policy option of Chinese gov't, and in particular not in the best interest of Chinese people. As it can be a very destabilizing factor in what can be seen as a great economic and ideological transformation thats taking place in the country. Any abrupt regime change or even the remotest instability can indeed be catastrophic to the current rapid pace at which the economy is expanding, which China is in dire need after a century of falling behind.
As for developing Maglev technology, of course it is important though probably not necessary, even if there are many people "with no flush toilets", a statement whose validity I temporarily have no interest in questioning. The reason is a bit too obvious, it's ridiculous you are asking such a dumb question in the first place.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:37 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
That is about as false as saying that most come because they want freedom of expression.

Most come here for economic reasons. There is no denying this.
i dont know about chinese immigrants in US, nor do i know anything about other immigrants group in Canada, but as far as Chinese immigrants from Mainland China are concerned, a significant portion of them (i would say over 70%) come for their children's education.

actually it's the same for SKoreans too, the Koreans i know all immigrated for their children's education, and a few HKers/Taiwanese, they are all very rich already in HK/Taiwan, i dont think they immigrated for economic reason.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:38 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
I did. And it does not make sense.

When was the last time someone starving in the gutter was the subject of envy of a guy driving by in the limo.
not when you know that guy has the potential to do something great someday.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:38 AM   #167
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what KGB doesnt realize is that many immigrants dont emigrate to the west for human rights. they do it for economic reasons.

my family is one of those. unfortunately, like many people from south asia, my father was a little naive and believed that the streets in the west were paved with gold. needless to say, when we moved to the US he couldnt get a job + was unemployed for one year, and now works in a job makin 1/3 of what he used to in Dubai. furthermore, even with all the freedoms we have in the US, my parents are stuck in a city/state that hasnt have the vibrancy and life Dubai had. people stay indoors a lot here. if they had the money, they would go back to dubai in a heartbeat. so KGB, the west isnt the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for everybody.

the same thing happened to my friend who moved to Toronto. ALthough he likes the freedoms (no censorship of internet + movies in theatre) and the crazy homeless people on the street and views it as his home, his parents arent makin even nearly as much money as they were in Dubai - and are struggling to lead the comfortable life they were used to in Dubai.

the same thing happened to ANOTHER friend of mine.

in fact half of Dubai residents who move to Canada end up moving back to Dubai (adn there are a lot who move to canada).


so the chinese people who are tryign to emigrate to Canada are thinking first and foremost about MONEY, not press censorship - because like many people all over the world, they think the grass will necessarily be greener on the other side.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:38 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Another very valid point.

Yet you have to admit the jealousy argument is a wee bit extreme. I see very little for Canada to be jealous about aside from length of history. Economically, Canada has no reason whatsoever being jealous of a country on the lower end of the production market. This is just reality.

There are poor democracies, to be sure. But to my knowledge there are no rich states that can be called authoritarian. And, the developed world is almos exclusively democratic. So I think that this points to the revelation that at some point (preferably sooner than later) China NEEDS to democratize.

But only democratize from within. Anything external (*cough*Iraq *cough*) has already proved to be impossible. One thing pissing of a country of 30 million, quite another pissing off 1/5 of humanity.

Like you guys have been saying, eventually China will. Just as South Korea and even Hong Kong were not technically democratic when they started, with wealth came democracy. I hope the same happens with China.
I very much agree your central point of being democratic. And I am glad that you pointed out that the South Korea way might be happening in China.

And I already told you that in Yale, Hu Jingtao did not dodge the democracy questioning, and has already promised democracy will be carried out in accordence with the economic development. In addition, the grassroot election has already been implemented in many counties.

And also, many westernes simply are unaware of the fact that what they are doing is actually consolidating CCP's monopoly, simply because Chinese are more wary of the west. So overinteresting, like KGB, is definitely a bad idea.

Last edited by wigo; May 2nd, 2006 at 07:48 AM.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:39 AM   #169
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KGB is looking at any reason to knock any non-Canadian country.

Why should China abandon the capitalism that has lifted 400 million out of poverty? That is essentially what he is proposing with his "maglve while others have no toilets" philosophy.

In the end while there maybe more pain now, more people will be lifted out pursuing the course of capitalism. My main problem would be the lavishing of attention almost exclusively to the coasts. It is not sustainable when only 300 million get to have a taste of wealth while a rural mass of 1 billion feels left out.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:41 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
not when you know that guy has the potential to do something great someday.
Again, sorry it is a silly analogy. I as a billionaire even if I have a bad couple of business decisions will remain at worst a millionaire. The chance of the poor guy in the gutter become as wealthy as me is not as assured as me remaining to be wealthy.

And I don't understand the arrogance towards India. You guys are both developing countries
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:43 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
KGB is looking at any reason to knock any non-Canadian country.

Why should China abandon the capitalism that has lifted 400 million out of poverty? That is essentially what he is proposing with his "maglve while others have no toilets" philosophy.

In the end while there maybe more pain now, more people will be lifted out pursuing the course of capitalism. My main problem would be the lavishing of attention almost exclusively to the coasts. It is not sustainable when only 300 million get to have a taste of wealth while a rural mass of 1 billion feels left out.
EXACTLY!
people cannot worry about who's going to win the election when they dont have food on their family's table.

only once people get rich can they begin to have the time and economic freedom to engage in politics. im using the west as an example. the west started off as barbaric countries, then slowly they modernized, the people became richer, and eventually emerged into the democracies they are today. to expect non-democratic poor states to run before they can walk is unreasonable.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:43 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
KGB is looking at any reason to knock any non-Canadian country.

Why should China abandon the capitalism that has lifted 400 million out of poverty? That is essentially what he is proposing with his "maglve while others have no toilets" philosophy.

In the end while there maybe more pain now, more people will be lifted out pursuing the course of capitalism. My main problem would be the lavishing of attention almost exclusively to the coasts. It is not sustainable when only 300 million get to have a taste of wealth while a rural mass of 1 billion feels left out.
Of course it's not sustainable.. with the policy decades ago.
Your knowledge and awareness about China is about 1 to 2 decades old.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:47 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
to expect non-democratic poor states to run before they can walk is unreasonable.
Well it depends. I think you see people speaking more about the rise of China than India because people are less concerned with India because it is firmly democratic, while China is not. India is an example of a HUGE non-democratic poor state. And I think as it stand now India's model will be more sustainable as people can elect other people when the going gets rough. What we have in China is a situation where one party is in power and the only way to cause significant change at the national level is revolt.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:50 AM   #174
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People with pathetically rudimentary knowledge about China are becoming increasingly interested in taking part in discussions about China. I personally don't really know much about China, but I still find it I know so much, and odd that forumers here talk passionately about things they know absolutely nothing about.
China is a country with population of 1 billion +. As part of a strategy of transition from state planning to market economy nearly 3 decades ago, what happened was the east provinces were getting greater attention, with special economic zones setting up along east coast in particular. Now China is looking to redistribute the wealth and start developing the west. It's part of a bigger picture, and the gov't has to: growing civil unrest and corruption. why is it so hard to comprehend?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:52 AM   #175
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if by sustainable you mean less of a threat to the west, then i guess you are right.

due to its democratic nature, it's quite difficult for all indians to act uniformly, for chinese it's different due to the autocratic nature of the government. i guess you are really JEALOUS of our cohesion, eh?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:54 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
if by sustainable you mean less of a threat to the west, then i guess you are right.

due to its democratic nature, it's quite difficult for all indians to act uniformly, for chinese it's different due to the autocratic nature of the government. i guess you are really JEALOUS of our cohesion, eh?


Read my posts my Chinese-American friend.

China should be proud of its history. But I will not be jealous of a country where the people may 10 times less than I do. Respect them yes, wish I was as poor as them, no.

Jealousy implies that you wish to be that which you envy. And I do not want to be a developing country. No one would.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:55 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Again, sorry it is a silly analogy. I as a billionaire even if I have a bad couple of business decisions will remain at worst a millionaire. The chance of the poor guy in the gutter become as wealthy as me is not as assured as me remaining to be wealthy.

And I don't understand the arrogance towards India. You guys are both developing countries
i would be jealous too if the other city is building 100 km subway everyear but it takes my city 10 years to evaluate a plan to build 10 km subway, and it's still not built yet.

do you understand now?
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:55 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Well it depends. I think you see people speaking more about the rise of China than India because people are less concerned with India because it is firmly democratic, while China is not. India is an example of a HUGE non-democratic poor state. And I think as it stand now India's model will be more sustainable as people can elect other people when the going gets rough. What we have in China is a situation where one party is in power and the only way to cause significant change at the national level is revolt.

WTF? At this early stage of the game, India's model is no way better than China's. China's model is too efficient at getting stuff done quickly and effectively, which is actually badly needed. More sustainable? In terms of what? Are you talking about sustainable development in terms of protecting the environment, otherwise "sustainable" is just a fancy word thrown around nobody actually cares about.
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:56 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zergling
WTF? At this early stage of the game, India's model is no way better than China's. China's model is too efficient at getting stuff done quickly and effectively, which is actually badly needed. More sustainable? In terms of what? Are you talking about sustainable development in terms of protecting the environment, otherwise "sustainable" is just a fancy word thrown around nobody actually cares about.
India is growing rapidly as well while being democratic
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:57 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen
i would be jealous too if the other city is building 100 km subway everyear but it takes my city 10 years to evaluate a plan to build 10 km subway, and it's still not built yet.

do you understand now?
Again no. because I already have 350 km of metro, highways, completely developed infrastructure.

I don't need to build 100 km. So why should I be jealous?

To quote myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
China should be proud of its history. But I will not be jealous of a country where the people make 10 times less than I do. Respect them yes, wish I was as poor as them, no.

Jealousy implies that you wish to be that which you envy. And I do not want to be a developing country. No one would.
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