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Old February 23rd, 2014, 09:07 AM   #61
Zagor666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
In Romania the main border crossing towns are signed all over the country.

Examples:
  • Calafat, a small town at the border with Bulgaria, is signed all the way from Timisoara (~ 320 km away)
  • Bors, a small village at the border with Hungary is signed all over Transylvania area (and I think also on main road 1 near Bucharest)
  • Giurgiu, a border town with Bulgaria is signed even in Arad (almost 600 km away from it)
  • Most of the signs on DN7 and A1 from Bucharest have Nădlac (a small border crossing town near the border with Hungary)

Here's a picture of Nădlac, been signed on A1 near Pitesti (500 km away):

I dont like those tactics.When i drive for example thru Romania i wanna see signs with big well known towns on it like Sibiu,Cluj,Iasi an so on.Especialy if a take pictures with me and the table

Signing Salzburg in Graz makes realy absolutely no sense.It would be more logical to sign Passau or even Nürnberg then Salzburg.Especialy when you know that Graz is signed on the A10 but this is another route via the E651.I dont know why they have a problem with Linz
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Last edited by Zagor666; February 23rd, 2014 at 09:27 AM.
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 05:58 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Zagor666 View Post
Especialy when you know that Graz is signed on the A10 but this is another route via the E651.
Well, routes are the same from Graz at least until Liezen. Since the A9 was completed, they sign Salzburg and München via Wels:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/58065495

Equally, by Salzburg they sign Graz via Wels as well:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/69761064
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 07:31 PM   #63
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Its strange to sign München there and not Wien
Signing Graz in Salzburg makes imo more sense then to sign Salzburg in Graz.Nice to see that they sign Ljubljana already in Salzburg when you just entered Austria.They could also sign Belgrade in Zagreb
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 10:03 PM   #64
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This sign in Sofia shows a small town of Kulata (850 inh.) on the Bulgarian-Greek border and completely ignores Blagoevgrad (70,000 inh.) and even Pernik (80,000 inh.) and Kyustendil (45,000 inh.) in direction of the Rep. of Macedonia.
It signs the border with Greece. Signing the last Bulgarian town/village before the border is a remnant of communism as that was the limit of the universe then
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 10:18 PM   #65
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Its strange to sign München there and not Wien
If I went to Wien, I would turn around.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:01 AM   #66
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On the Italian A22 they apparently signpost only Modena, even when you're already close to Verona.

Even worse in the other direction: only Brennero signposted when Verona is just around the corner.

Apparently they pretty much ignore Verona on the A22, even though it's the largest city and the most important junction along it.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #67
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Don't overestimate the importance of the junction between A4 and A22. Its importance lies primarily in the connection between Venezia and the Brenner. From the South to Venezia or Milan, the junction is not used, while the Brenner is not a prominent route out of Milan either.

Anyway, the A22 is one of the few routes in Italy that has proper distance signs on top of the usual gantry signs that only feature the control city. On the A22, Verona is signposted quite well. And when you are heading South, the A4 itself is signposted prominently (rather than the town of Verona itself). On the A4, too, the intersection with the A22 appears on the distance signs. To me, this underlines the use of distance signs. I am perfectly fine with picking one control city for a road, whether that is the route's terminus, a major city very far away or the first town of any importance. But distance signs should be posted with regular intervals to confirm that you are also on the route to various other important towns: medium-sized and large towns situated before you actually reach the terminus and, where the control city is simply the next regional centre, also major towns beyond the control city.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:57 PM   #68
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Don't overestimate the importance of the junction between A4 and A22. Its importance lies primarily in the connection between Venezia and the Brenner. From the South to Venezia or Milan, the junction is not used, while the Brenner is not a prominent route out of Milan either.
How so? If you're coming from the Brenner, all three directions are important: Modena, Venezia, and Milano (don't forget that Verona is signposted already in Germany). As you've noticed, signage is similar on the A4: only Milano and Venezia are signposted (and the A22 as such). I think Verona should be signposted at least from Brescia and Vicenza, but there is nothing until you're already there (it may come as a surprise). I think that's quite ignorant to Verona. Italians are notorious for signposting too many destinations, but not on motorways.

Last edited by Verso; February 25th, 2014 at 06:10 PM.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #69
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Let me start by saying that towns of bigger regional importance should be signposted on motorways leading to them. If they only appear on signs when the next exit leads to that town, it is too late. In Italy, Verona is the biggest town that does not have control city status on all motorways leading to it. This is not the end of the World, as long as proper backup is given through distance signs. The distance signs on the A22 do the business, those on the A4 unfortunately don't. But to keep things in perspective, this is not a Verona thing but a general Italian motorway signage thing. Some regional capitals do not have control city status (e.g. Perugia, Potenza, Trento) and some towns that are only marginally smaller than Verona do not have control city status either. And to most of those towns, there are much fewer distance signs that back up the classical directional signs than around Verona. The Italian style of signposting is to blame here, and I believe that adequate signs would lead to great improvements.

Back to Verona, I disagree that from the North all three directions are equally important. At least not in the big international scheme of things. For centuries, Milan has relied on the Gotthard as its connection with the world north of the Alps, backed up by San Bernardino, Splügen and Simplon. Today, you will struggle to find any significant place North of the Alps for which the most direct connection with Milan runs via the Brenner. The latter is historically the gateway to the Veneto, backed by Tauern in the modern age. It follows that, taken from Dreieck Inntal, the significance of Verona lies in its turnoff to the East, not to the West, while of course continuing South remains a prominent option (but you don't need Verona as a focal point for that Southerly direction).

Where I consider it a fair assumption that the Germans signpost Verona for its intersection A22/A4, there is nothing strange in Autobrennero signposting that very intersection by signposting the A4 along large sections of the A22. Same message, different format. Only when one reaches Trento, Verona becomes so important that a reference to the town itself becomes a must. Just a shame that equivalent references out of Vicenza and Brescia are AWOL - just as they are when approaching other regional centres elsewhere in Italy.
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Last edited by -Pino-; February 26th, 2014 at 01:27 AM.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 02:56 AM   #70
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I agree that the Brenner-Milan route isn't so important in wider context (I didn't say the directions were equally important). I don't really mind Verona not being signposted on the A4 either. Whenever I drove from Venice to Milan or back, I never considered Verona a very important junction. My main complaint goes to the signage on the A22 (regardless of distance signs), because Verona is the largest city along it, with 260,000 inhabitants. The other reason is that I don't think focal points need to be so far apart in this region (Modena and the Brenner are over 300 km apart). This isn't Russia where you have to signpost faraway cities. But note that I'm not against them, I only miss Verona.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 08:31 AM   #71
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A22 is the longest Italian motorway on which only the termini serve as control cities. From that perspective alone, there would be merit in arguments that an intermediate control city should be chosen. Which would of course need to be weighed against the standard Italian argument that most Italian people know a motorway by its termini, so why add a further town?

For what it is worth, there are bigger distances between control cities elsewhere in Italy. Salerno to Reggio Calabria on the A3 is probably the largest one. But of course the A3 goes through an area without any really big towns, unlike A22.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #72
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Yes, the thing is that Italians tend to signpost only one destination (focal point) for continuing driving on a motorway.


Another example from Switzerland: in and around Geneva they signpost Évian instead of Thonon:


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8120210 by NilsW

I find it ok since Évian is a famous tourist town, but if this sign was in France, I wouldn't like ignoring Thonon.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 07:21 PM   #73
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If Europeans would just learn to use route numbers to their full potential....
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DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
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Old February 26th, 2014, 10:01 PM   #74
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Sweden kinda does.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
If Europeans would just learn to use route numbers to their full potential....
... then maybe the yanks would finally learn to use focal points and distance signs to their full potential
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Old February 26th, 2014, 11:57 PM   #76
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Sadly true. American control city practices drive me up a wall. (Even the term "control city" drives me up a wall....)
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:49 PM   #77
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Quote:
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I am pretty sure that they must still be some signs somwhere in Croatia (Zagreb area) signing to Lipovac (border with Serbia) instead of Slavonski Brod.
Yes, I took this pic yesterday in Sesvete (east of Zagreb):



There is one more sign referring to Lipovac around 1 km east of this one, at the following location:

https://www.google.de/maps/@45.82387...4tUx1Iv7eg!2e0
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Old February 27th, 2014, 04:09 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by riiga View Post
Sweden kinda does.
We are not true Europeans though, we should drop the E-routes/signs anyway , Länge leve Riksettan!!
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Old February 27th, 2014, 07:48 PM   #79
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There is one more sign referring to Lipovac around 1 km east of this one, at the following location:
And sometimes they signpost Goričan instead of Vara˛din or Čakovec.
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