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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:42 AM   #6681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhavvk View Post
I replied without checking references, because I've seen them. Then I checked if there eslt references and they are not open. But the article still exist. I opened the link is not broken and does not see any one source of information. So it's a lie. Just propoganda.
It's unbeliabable how your minds are washed out... Beyond any comprehension.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 12:51 PM   #6682
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Old July 26th, 2015, 01:40 PM   #6683
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Sure, our inside-country propaganda is very strong, I agree with you, BUT look at my picture:


You can see that about half of MIBC is actually U/C. So I think that's why journalists saying about "60% of offices is empty!!1".

And what about international prestige and so on? Yes, it is, but in propotion 50/50 (half-governments interests, half-business interests).

The government thought after the collapse of the Soviet Union "We such a huge supapower country, Moscow is one of the most influential world capitals: What the f*ck we don't have our own Manhattan with blackjack and hookers?!"

And remember, guys, Moscow is simply unrealistic for a large area of the city, so it was necessary to concentrate the offices in one place for the convenience, preferably close to the center, but at the same time on the outskirts)) In general, government wanted to do something like La defance in Paris.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 02:02 PM   #6684
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let them talk their bullshit about the MIBC and russian propaganda It was said a thousand times that half of the MIBC is still a construction site! I can#t understand why so many people don't get it.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 02:09 PM   #6685
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Unbelievable how brainwashed most of the russians are...
German talks about brainwashing :spit: Funny. Go read "Bild"
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Old July 26th, 2015, 02:12 PM   #6686
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Old July 26th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #6687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexter2 View Post
It's because Warsaw's downtown is fully integrated with the city, like in NYC or Boston [well, maybe not that well]. You can find lot's of other buildings standing right next to them in dense urban core. Also, it is multifunctional, so it lives 24/h a day.
Moscow's, Paris' or Vienna's are in the outskirts, sorrounded by highways. They are functional, but only at 8am and 16pm, afer that those areas are mostly deserted, as people arrive and leave using cars.
Also, It's not an island of buildings that were built as a political statement of power, like towers in Moscow or Dubai. Towers in Warsaw are actually that high because they need to be, not just 'can' be...
It's not that general. First of all, "looking American" doesn't mean always something good. Most american "downtowns" look "interated" like you call it, that's right. But this "American-Style" is of course a product of the historical circumstances. And many of the american cities are exactly that what you discribed. There are also highways around or nearby and they are really empty after end of work.

You have to differ it always. There are of course cities like New York, LA, Chicago, Boston or Miami, where is full life 24h. But in most of the other cities it's not that.

In Europe it's the same. Of cours Paris is an extreme example. That's all right what you said. But it's also just an office-district. In Moscow I wouldn't agree. It's now of course also kind of that, and that's the fact why I wouldn't judge it today. It's all under construction now. Wait till it will be finished. There are also many apartements in the district. And when there are apartements, there will be also people all the time around.
In Vienna I don't really know how it is.
In Frankfurt it's of course everything some kind of well balanced. But you have also look on circumstances here, too. It's of course a german city. Most of the towers are located around the Bahnhofsviertel, which is some kind of "Party-District" of Frankfurt. That's also why there is always much "life" at night and evening. And there are also many appartements around the towers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
Nov. 2014 vacancy rate was 32%, rising to 45% in Feb. 2015.

Those figures aren't made up by the western press either. They are from Moscow based real estate firm Blackwood.

http://blackwood.ru/
That really sound a bit like propagand. I mean it really can be that the vacany rate is true. But you can't derive of it that all the towers are just prestige projects or that ther is no demand. When new buildings or part of buildings are finished, they are empty and the vacancy rate grows. And as I wrote before, most of the MIBC is under construction and so it's empty. Sound for me always a bit like Britains have some complexes with that. It's mostly british media that's forcible trying to tell the people that hole MIBC is empty.


Quote:
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German talks about brainwashing :spit: Funny. Go read "Bild"
As a German, I can tell you, that you are right
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Old July 26th, 2015, 05:39 PM   #6688
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I know how it is in USA. All american cities would look great and have this kind of balance, if it wasn't for car culture. They were planned very well and developed very well, until car lobby forced demolition for highways that allowed suburbanization that drained city centers that led to more demolition.
These two pictures are more than a 1000 words in this case:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_Map_1896.jpg
vs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ember_2008.jpg

In other words - american Cities were destroyed by cars.

In Europe, those highrise areas like La defence or Moscow downtown were designed for cars from the beginning.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 06:17 PM   #6689
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Yes, mostly right. That's also, why I would be carefully with the statement, Warsaw looks like an american city. Some buildings maybe and that's not bad of course. But in whole I wouldn't agree. And I also wouldn't want Warsaw to look like an american city, because in my opinion Warsaw is now better how it is.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 06:55 PM   #6690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avangard-55 View Post
That really sound a bit like propagand. I mean it really can be that the vacany rate is true. But you can't derive of it that all the towers are just prestige projects or that ther is no demand. When new buildings or part of buildings are finished, they are empty and the vacancy rate grows. And as I wrote before, most of the MIBC is under construction and so it's empty. Sound for me always a bit like Britains have some complexes with that. It's mostly british media that's forcible trying to tell the people that hole MIBC is empty.
)
Google Translate hasn't really worked here, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

I have quoted numerous news articles, which all stem from the same source: Blackwood, a Russian real estate firm. If the figures were made up, I'm sure there would have been contradictory claims made. Please produce evidence to the contrary, the ball is in your court.

Also worth mentioning that only one of the sources I quoted was British. Two were American, and one was Russian!

Generally office buildings in London, Paris, New York ect. are built with pre-lets. Developers sign up anchor corporate tenants to new buildings before they are built. These tend to occupy at least one third of the new building, and help to secure financing for the construction costs. Whilst the building is under construction the developer will actively seek to sign up other tenants to fill the rest of the vacant space in the building. If they are lucky they will manage to get 100% occupancy before the building is complete. However this is rarely the case.

MIBC has a huge amount of office space, and as you and others have stated, there is plenty more under construction. With a current vacancy rate of 45%, already much higher than the Moscow average, there is going to be even more vacant space when those new towers complete. The question that therefore arises is; where is the money coming from to finance MIBC? A project of this scale would not get off the ground without a watertight business plan in the West, as banks and other investors would not tolerate 45% projected vacancy rates. Nor would they be happy with tenants like hostels and medium sized businesses occupying these buildings. Only high paying corporate tenants should be able to afford office space in these buildings. But it appears that to get occupancy levels up, developers have had to slash their prices, hence the number of non-corporate tenants. It looks like whoever put $12 billion towards building the MIBC isn't going to get much a return on their investment.

That's not to say that MIBC won't be a success in the future. It's going to take a long time to fill up the huge glut of office space. I think what has been argued over the last few pages is that MIBC is anything but natural growth. You simply don't get developments like MIBC without throwing stupid amounts of money at it.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 07:37 PM   #6691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
45%
Do you know where this figure? I found it in some sites. It takes into account OKO, Evolution, Federation, IQ. They are still empty. Because yet unfinished.
Just translate the article in the Google translator.
http://www.malls.ru/rus/news/uroven-...ti-do-45.shtml
When the tower was built, during the year, the number of vacant space will decrease. However, I expect that there may be around 20%
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Old July 26th, 2015, 08:31 PM   #6692
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Originally Posted by Blackhavvk View Post
Do you know where this figure? I found it in some sites. It takes into account OKO, Evolution, Federation, IQ. They are still empty. Because yet unfinished.
Just translate the article in the Google translator.
http://www.malls.ru/rus/news/uroven-...ti-do-45.shtml
When the tower was built, during the year, the number of vacant space will decrease. However, I expect that there may be around 20%
Looks like it comes from the same source as the article you quoted. The 45% figure is the projected vacancy rate for MIBC as a whole by the end of 2015, including the new tower builds. The high vacancy rate will force down rental yields. Evidence suggests that this has already happened, as not all of the new tenants are financial service companies; the kind of companies which MIBC was built to cater for.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 08:43 PM   #6693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avangard-55 View Post

That really sound a bit like propagand. I mean it really can be that the vacany rate is true. But you can't derive of it that all the towers are just prestige projects or that ther is no demand. When new buildings or part of buildings are finished, they are empty and the vacancy rate grows. And as I wrote before, most of the MIBC is under construction and so it's empty. Sound for me always a bit like Britains have some complexes with that. It's mostly british media that's forcible trying to tell the people that hole MIBC is empty.
Nonsense. Last two sentences clearly show some agenda in your argument as it has nothing to do with British media. Someone has referenced a source for their claims, whilst you have tried to dismiss it with your opinion which is far more unfounded.

I for one agree with previous comments suggesting it is more of a political statement and certainly has a feel of 'build it and they will come'. Personally I have much more appreciation for skylines that grow naturally in response to pressures/demands, but that's just me.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 08:56 PM   #6694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Rising View Post
Looks like it comes from the same source as the article you quoted. The 45% figure is the projected vacancy rate for MIBC as a whole by the end of 2015, including the new tower builds. The high vacancy rate will force down rental yields. Evidence suggests that this has already happened, as not all of the new tenants are financial service companies; the kind of companies which MIBC was built to cater for.
However foolish to assume that all new towers constructed and will remain empty. Exactly at the end of the year will be opened immediately 5 skyscrapers. It will peak vacancy. Prices will drop. It would be an incentive to buy the area for a low price. The following prices likely will never be, because the opening 5 of the tall buildings at the same time do not plan to. Strong demand will compensate a great offer. A year later, at the end of 2016 the vacancy rate will be reduced significantly. Unable to sell all at once. At the end of 2016 it is already possible to discuss the results.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 09:30 PM   #6695
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #6697
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Old July 27th, 2015, 12:55 AM   #6698
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However foolish to assume that all new towers constructed and will remain empty. Exactly at the end of the year will be opened immediately 5 skyscrapers. It will peak vacancy. Prices will drop. It would be an incentive to buy the area for a low price. The following prices likely will never be, because the opening 5 of the tall buildings at the same time do not plan to. Strong demand will compensate a great offer. A year later, at the end of 2016 the vacancy rate will be reduced significantly. Unable to sell all at once. At the end of 2016 it is already possible to discuss the results.
Who's assuming they will stay empty? They will of course fill up over time. But if the developers don't get high yields it will be some time before you see any more growth of the MIBC cluster. This is a build it and they will come venture. So far, they have built too much and far too few have come. That's why you have a hostel and medium sized businesses filling up the space, not international finance and business services which the cluster was designed for.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 01:20 AM   #6699
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Old July 27th, 2015, 01:22 AM   #6700
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Quote:
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Who's assuming they will stay empty? They will of course fill up over time. But if the developers don't get high yields it will be some time before you see any more growth of the MIBC cluster. This is a build it and they will come venture. So far, they have built too much and far too few have come. That's why you have a hostel and medium sized businesses filling up the space, not international finance and business services which the cluster was designed for.
In Moscow every year build about 10 million square meters of various buildings. More than in any city in Europe. MIBC is only a small part of the whole construction in Moscow. It does not interfere with the rest of the construction progress.

And why are you sure MIBC will be filled for a long time? I think within a year is 85%. Not a very long time. A 15% vacancy rate is normal for the business center of this class.

Of course we can not know who is right.Saying that it is empty for a long time is not necessary. You can not know.

PS In the Moscow suburb - Krasnogorsk is now building a new cluster. The developer says that will not be in a hurry, and the construction will be carried out according to demand. 1 Skyscraper building. So the demand is there.
PPS I have a feeling that you want to MIBC remained empty. I do not understand. Why do you think that the MIBC will be filled for a long time? We can not know.
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