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Old February 28th, 2014, 07:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
I see

Or could it be that SF is more compact and dense in terms of layout? Space may not be as available there..........compared to say wide-open places in America such as Nevada or Texas.
Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. I said "downtown areas" only because what you said about San Francisco is also valid for New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston and any number of other places. Hence the "supply" side of the supply-and-demand equation.
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Old February 28th, 2014, 07:34 PM   #22
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^
Ah ok.

Anyways thanks for the explanation =)

P.S.
This is the highest I've seen for Hong Kong so far

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Old February 28th, 2014, 08:19 PM   #23
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34 HKD is only about € 3.10 per hour. So you pay as much in Zwolle (small city of 120,000) as in high-density Hong Kong.

Parking rates in Singapore also seem to be rather low compared to what it cost to purchase a car there.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:42 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
34 HKD is only about € 3.10 per hour. So you pay as much in Zwolle (small city of 120,000) as in high-density Hong Kong.

Parking rates in Singapore also seem to be rather low compared to what it cost to purchase a car there.
You have a point

Still, with that said, parking rates alone are not just the only reason why only a small minority of people can afford to own/drive cars over there. I heard that in Singapore, that's about only 20%-30% of the population. In Hong Kong though, it's much more intense with something like less than 10% have a personal automobile.

The other factors come into play. In Singapore, you have ERP road pricing as well as Certificate of Entitlement (COE) which is bid out based on vehicle category and these rates change every week afaik. The price of Toyota Prius in Singapore is more expensive than BMW 7 Series sold in the USA (something like 2x or 3x the price)

Then in Hong Kong, the SAR government increasing the First Registration Tax by an additional 15%.

Hence, I raise another question: "Do you think it's fair that private car usage/ownership is severely restricted or made more expensive in places Singapore and Hong Kong? Yes or No?"
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Old March 1st, 2014, 04:14 AM   #25
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I'm not sure what the tolls elsewhere in NZ are, but parking is around NZ$1-2.00 with parking free in neighboring Richmond year round and free parking in Nelson on weekends and public holidays.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 09:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's also common to keep supply of parking artificially low to justify high parking fees. It's not uncommon for downtown areas to build large office towers with parking space for only a few percent of their employees. Of course you cannot provide parking for everybody, but there's need to provide a reasonable amount of parking so not only the elite can park and the average John is sanctioned to long unfavorable commutes with public transit.
I believe the main motivation for limiting parking spaces -- explicit public policy in a lot of cities -- is more to discourage people from driving and instead use public transit, bike, etc. The idea is that this will reduce auto emissions, but I suspect these policies may have the opposite effect, by increasing the amount of driving around looking for a parking place by those who continue to drive. I think I read once that 40% of the miles driven in San Francisco were by people driving around and around looking for a parking place. So the question is, which is greater? The reduction in driving resulting from limiting parking, or the increase in driving by those who continue to drive but can't easily find a parking place? I think the law of unintended consequences also holds true for other anti-driving measures (traffic calming, road diets, etc.). If increased congestion results, increased emissions will too, as emissions greatly increase below about 30 mph/50 kmh. The best thing to reduce emissions is to keep traffic flowing smoothly, and preventing stop-and-go driving.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 02:21 AM   #27
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It's absolutely crazy, in every city in the world they struggle to create more parking spaces and in Switzerland they even put a ceiling to their number.
Every city in the world, where you got that? In many European cities, at least, they constantly reduce parking spaces in downtown in favor of public transports and/or pedestrians/bikes.
Even in Lausanne, where municipal "on street" parkings are limited, you've got tens of thousands underground parking spaces in the center, and they cost almost the same price during working hours. So, it's not a lot of an issue for parking to go downtown (unfortunately, it's the wrong place if you're looking for free or cheap ) ...But, what's crazy here, is they build new housings (for families) without any parking lot at all, and they're definitely not in "eco-districts" !

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Switzerland is probably the more anti-car country in the world, with laws forbidding to increase capacity on translapine roads and entire Alpine towns closed to cars.
It's not that bad here, as it was already shown in this thread, many European and American countries/cities have higher tolls for use of motorways/expressways (In addition, most of ours are built on difficult terrain) and/or more expensive parking costs. Add to that moderate road taxes and higher average salaries.
Also, the problem you are pointing comes from some Left wing-Ecologist's that wants constantly to raise new and higher taxes, put lots of regulations and baffles just to annoy motorists. I want to make it clear, I don't like, as you seems to do, these "species".

Last edited by John Maynard; March 2nd, 2014 at 03:01 AM.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 04:25 AM   #28
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Apart from the omnipresent parking charges and regulations even in the smallest villages, low speed limits and very harsh penalties for excess of these, the situation for motorists is indeed not as bad in Switzerland:

Tax and insurance for average cars cost about as much as in Germany. Gasoline is even cheaper (just diesel ist not). You have excellent quality roads and motorways (about 2000km of the latter for an annual toll of 40 francs) with very good signage. There is an overall good driving culture with reckless drivers being rare exceptions. You have a low risk of vehicle theft or burglary. There are no German-style Umwelt zones or Italian ZTL's.

They really focus on parking and speed, the rest is nothing really special or worse than in other European countries ...
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 04:56 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post

Hence, I raise another question: "Do you think it's fair that private car usage/ownership is severely restricted or made more expensive in places Singapore and Hong Kong? Yes or No?"
Well hell, how could those laws be explained as fair?
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They really focus on parking and speed, the rest is nothing really special or worse than in other European countries ...
True, but, we are either speeding, or we are parking, there is no escape from pain
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 08:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
the situation for motorists is indeed not as bad in Switzerland: .... You have excellent quality roads and motorways (about 2000km of the latter for an annual toll of 40 francs) with very good signage.
Are the Swiss autobahns paid for entirely out of vignette revenues, or is there other funding? I read on the website for the Austrian autobahn authority, ASFiNAG, that their system is fully paid for from vignette sales, which seems hard to believe, since they don't cost that much (€8.50 for 10 days or €82.70 for a year) and from my experience the autobahns seem of excellent quality (except for the awful signage!). I think you'd pay a lot more over a year in tolls if you regularly used any of the US toll roads. 40 CHF also doesn't seem that bad, although they unfortunately don't offer visitors a less-than-annual vignette. (In both cases, I'm sure HGV's pay a lot more though).
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 09:46 AM   #31
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About 75% of toll revenue in Austria is from trucks and 25% from vignette sales. Switzerland however, decided to dump this useful funding source into railways and local roads. Switzerland could've built just about any road project they wanted if they would use the truck tolls.

Switzerland may appear to be anti-car on the surface with some bizarre politics (such as the 2nd Gotthard tube debacle), but in reality it's not that bad, the tolls are definitely acceptable, fuel prices are so-so but when it comes to tax on newly registered cars, Switzerland is not expensive at all. For example there is a 4% automobilsteuer (car tax), in the Netherlands it is 45% + 21% VAT. Also, there doesn't seem to be a monthly road tax (apart from the vignette). I pay € 65 per month just to own the car. I could buy two annual vignettes in Switzerland for that kind of money.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 10:45 AM   #32
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Well hell, how could those laws be explained as fair?
I too believe that it's harsh (because I believe that one should have the freedom to choose his/her own mode of transportation........and not have some government or organization force that upon its citizens)

However, what choice do they have?

Is there any more space for tiny Singapore to house more than 5 million people? Do they have space to build way more roads and parking lots.......given that the population is expected to reach 7-8 million by year 2030?

There is even debate on whether COE bidding rates should be increased further given that there is still an increase in the automobile population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement

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Several steps have to be completed before a car-owner can drive a vehicle in Singapore. A Certificate of Entitlement (COE) is required, costing more than S$80,000 to successful bidders. This permits ownership of the vehicle for a period of 10 years after which the vehicle must be scrapped or another COE paid for allowing an additional 5 or 10 years of usage. Only 10 year COEs may be further renewed. 5 year COEs may not be renewed.
Certain roads and expressways in Singapore are subject to the Electronic Road Pricing (ERP) system.
COEs and the ERP system are intended to encourage people to use public transport such as the MRT instead of driving.
Land space is a premium in Hong Kong and Singapore vis-a-vis to the amount of population they have there....

So I really don't know if they have a choice over there....
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:07 AM   #33
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There is also a special "toll" in Turin, Italy. It is not allowed to cross the inner city by car. If you cross the city you have to pay a fine. To avoid paying a fine you have to enter a parking garage where a camera registers your license plate.

I couldn't find any information about that toll on the internet. Does anyone know how this kind of toll is called and which area is affected? Does this kind of toll also exist in other (Italian) cities?
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:19 AM   #34
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There is also a special "toll" in Turin, Italy. It is not allowed to cross the inner city by car. If you cross the city you have to pay a fine. To avoid paying a fine you have to enter a parking garage where a camera registers your license plate.

I couldn't find any information about that toll on the internet. Does anyone know how this kind of toll is called and which area is affected? Does this kind of toll also exist in other (Italian) cities?
AFAIK, Milan implements a congestion charge in a certain zone of its main area.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 12:22 PM   #35
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There is also a special "toll" in Turin, Italy. It is not allowed to cross the inner city by car. If you cross the city you have to pay a fine. To avoid paying a fine you have to enter a parking garage where a camera registers your license plate.

I couldn't find any information about that toll on the internet. Does anyone know how this kind of toll is called and which area is affected? Does this kind of toll also exist in other (Italian) cities?
It's called ZTL and you can find it basically in any city in Italy. Milan congestion charge is slightly different (you pay, you can enter, even for residents). ZTL you can't enter - unless you are resident or going to a hotel or a parking garage.

Map of Turin ZTL:
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 05:35 PM   #36
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Also, there doesn't seem to be a monthly road tax (apart from the vignette). I pay € 65 per month just to own the car. I could buy two annual vignettes in Switzerland for that kind of money.
Do you mean: vehicle tax? This exists in CH as well; I pay 318 francs a year for a smaller vehicle w/ 1.9 litres engine.

Monthly road taxes as such indeed don't exist, but - again a Swiss speciality - monthly parking "taxes" do. Every municipality has the right to charge a monthly parking fee for vehicles "regularly parking overnight" on (otherwise unrestricted) public areas within that municipality's territory.
E.g. the city of Chur charges 50 francs per month in this case.

To avoid this fee, vehicle owners residing in the respective municipality have to
1) go undetected, which will be difficult to impossible after 2-3 months of regularly parking the vehicle in public areas,
2) provide proof of an available lot used for regular overnight parking (e.g. renting contract of a garage place belonging to one's apartment)
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 06:36 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
I too believe that it's harsh (because I believe that one should have the freedom to choose his/her own mode of transportation........and not have some government or organization force that upon its citizens)

However, what choice do they have?

Is there any more space for tiny Singapore to house more than 5 million people? Do they have space to build way more roads and parking lots.......given that the population is expected to reach 7-8 million by year 2030?

There is even debate on whether COE bidding rates should be increased further given that there is still an increase in the automobile population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement



Land space is a premium in Hong Kong and Singapore vis-a-vis to the amount of population they have there....

So I really don't know if they have a choice over there....
They are small places but not exceptionally so considering the population... it is as if you had a large city just floating on the water instead of attached to the rest of the country. Anyway it is certainly possible to build more roads, etc. And traffic jams at least are fair and democratic It also has perverse effects, for example, I have three cars but obviously can only drive one at a time... but would need to pay COE 3x?! it's crazy...

Last edited by Kanadzie; March 2nd, 2014 at 06:43 PM.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 06:59 PM   #38
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It also has perverse effects, for example, I have three cars but obviously can only drive one at a time... but would need to pay COE 3x?! it's crazy...
Yup, because you have to bid for each car that you purchase.

That's how it is in Singapore

Also, Singapore has this:

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Old March 2nd, 2014, 07:46 PM   #39
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ERP in Singapore is not as an oppressive kind of tolling as it is often portrayed. The tolls are based on the time of the day, and driving as little as an half hour outside the peak hour reduces the toll charges substantially, many ERP locations only charge during rush hour and many locations even only charge in the peak direction, so you can drive toll free on many times of the day.
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Old March 2nd, 2014, 10:05 PM   #40
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ERP in Singapore is not as an oppressive kind of tolling as it is often portrayed. The tolls are based on the time of the day, and driving as little as an half hour outside the peak hour reduces the toll charges substantially, many ERP locations only charge during rush hour and many locations even only charge in the peak direction, so you can drive toll free on many times of the day.
You have a point there

However, most Singaporeans feel that yes, car population has been reduced......but with regards to traffic congestion, let's just say that ERP reduces traffic in areas where it is in effect............but shifts traffic elsewhere (i.e. alternative routes, etc.)

And many SG motorists and taxi drivers label the ERP = "Exorbitant Road Pricing" and "Everyday Rob People"

With that said, many Singaporeans believe that their government is encouraging the use of public transport (which is fine and okay, no problem there) but is severely restricting automobile usage............even to those who really *need* a car.

Personally, I don't mind. If I were to live in Singapore and I wanted a car, I would first earn seven digit income or more.

However, for the common citizen, such is only a dream.

Hence, the reason why you see a lot supercars and expensive luxury vehicles in Singapore.............because only 15% of the population can afford to own/drive a car in SG.
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